ESC United Mod Team
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The Netherlands NETHERLANDS 2024 - Joost Klein - Europapa
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LivingOrganism
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Having followed this "drama" since yesterday I must say, that I do not understand why so many people suddenly act as if Joost is the victim here. The Swedish police and their public prosecutor wouldn't risk causing an international scandal if they had no proof of whatever he did. What exactly that was, we can only speculate, but it must have been something serious, considering how quickly the public prosecutor got involved. As a lawyer I've dealt with criminal investigations quite a few times and I can say confidently that the only cases in which the prosecutor acts so quickly are those in which the culprit is caugut red-handed or there's extremely strong evidence of their guilt. Considering the ongoing investigation I'm pretty sure that EBU had literally no other choice than disqualifying Joost from the competition.
As for the sentence "innocent until proven guilty", it is often wildly misunderstood. During an ongoing inverstigation the police, the public prosecutor and the competent court have instruments that can affect the suspect in a way which helps the investigation. An example of that is the so-called house arrest, which was used in Joost's case, as proven by the police's official statement on the matter. In a situation like this it's obvious that there's no way the suspect would be permited to take part in a competition like the ESC.
Another matter, that puzzles me are the claims of double standards concerning the Israeli delegation. I genuinely don't understand that. Even if it's true that they act inappropriately towards other contestants, which in itself is pretty difficult to believe, there's a huge difference between being a douche and commiting a crime. There's no legal grounds on which EBU could potentially disqualify Israel. Joost on the other hand, as I've previously said, is under a criminal investigation and therefore his disqualification was the only possible outcome.
The victimisation of a suspect is a very popular phenomenon, especially since no matter the country people always believe in the myth of "a poor indivudual", which is inevitably harassed by the system. It's an odd idea, which hardly ever has anything to do with the reality, but is still extremely popular amongst the general populace. The reason I've brought it up is that I believe it plays a big role in the Joost incident, as a lot of people immediately jump to his defence despite having no access to any serious information on the matter. All I want to say about this is that such approach is very risky, as it barely ever turns out to be correct. Considering what I've brought up in the first paragraph it's highly possible that Joost did indeed commit the crime of which he is accused amd therefore saying stuff like "I feel so bad for him" etc. makes no sense as he, as we all, is the architect of his own fate and should be capable of making responsible decisions in his life and then bearing their consequences.
Sorry for the long essay. I simply had to let this out and hopefully those who read it will find something interesting for them to think about.
As for the sentence "innocent until proven guilty", it is often wildly misunderstood. During an ongoing inverstigation the police, the public prosecutor and the competent court have instruments that can affect the suspect in a way which helps the investigation. An example of that is the so-called house arrest, which was used in Joost's case, as proven by the police's official statement on the matter. In a situation like this it's obvious that there's no way the suspect would be permited to take part in a competition like the ESC.
Another matter, that puzzles me are the claims of double standards concerning the Israeli delegation. I genuinely don't understand that. Even if it's true that they act inappropriately towards other contestants, which in itself is pretty difficult to believe, there's a huge difference between being a douche and commiting a crime. There's no legal grounds on which EBU could potentially disqualify Israel. Joost on the other hand, as I've previously said, is under a criminal investigation and therefore his disqualification was the only possible outcome.
The victimisation of a suspect is a very popular phenomenon, especially since no matter the country people always believe in the myth of "a poor indivudual", which is inevitably harassed by the system. It's an odd idea, which hardly ever has anything to do with the reality, but is still extremely popular amongst the general populace. The reason I've brought it up is that I believe it plays a big role in the Joost incident, as a lot of people immediately jump to his defence despite having no access to any serious information on the matter. All I want to say about this is that such approach is very risky, as it barely ever turns out to be correct. Considering what I've brought up in the first paragraph it's highly possible that Joost did indeed commit the crime of which he is accused amd therefore saying stuff like "I feel so bad for him" etc. makes no sense as he, as we all, is the architect of his own fate and should be capable of making responsible decisions in his life and then bearing their consequences.
Sorry for the long essay. I simply had to let this out and hopefully those who read it will find something interesting for them to think about.
kipthechipdip
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I am just wondering if this is the end of Eurovision. With all the countries saying they will withdraw, I wonder how many will come back next year. I also feel bad for Luxembourg they picked the wrong year to come back.
LivingOrganism
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I started writing my post before seeing yours and it's pretty funny how I ended up writing something so similar. Thank you for sharing your take on the situation, now I feel a lot better seeing that I'm not alone here.Ok I don't want to beat a dead horse, however I fell compelled to say something after reading some comments written here and on other social media.
As someone who has been involved legally in situations similar to this one, there isn't anything that sounds out of place and I think that the EBU is getting way too much hate and blame.
For starters Police usually don't take verbal treats seriously and I say this as a person who works in customer support and had to report several clients due to treats two thirds of the time nothing happens, while rest of the time they usually just get a call from the police to tell them to act nicely. So the fact that there is a entire police report with investigation and interrogations says a lot about the incident that took place, it must have been something serious for the police to take action. Secondly things like this are pretty common like some users already said you don't want somebody who is under police investigation near the victims and this isn't something that is unique to Eurovision in fact this is the first time something like this happens. Third point is secrecy usually in order for an investigation to go smoothly and for the victims identity to be kept safe not a lot information will get released until the investigation is over so it's not the EBU fault for the lack of information the Police simply isn't giving a lot of information in order to keep the victim safe and the investigation in order so please don't put the blame on Martin Österdahl neither he not EBU would have wanted for this to happen and can't release a lot of information due to legal matters.
Personally the only thing I would have changed was dismiss the rumours about another delegation getting involved immedietly instead of waiting for an entire day to pass during which a lot explicitly anti-semitic rumours spread like wild fires, however I don't knowlaws that much so I don't know if they were permitted to do that.
P.S. reagring my last post - of course I too don't know specific Swedish laws, but having studied international criminal law I can say that it's usually almost the same in all EU countries.
crashworld
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Thankful to @Stiven and @LivingOrganism for shedding some light on such stuff.
Most of us have never encountered them (thankfully) in a personal capacity, so naturally, feelings will take over rational thoughts.
But of course, there are also times where the authorities have got it wrong (though very rare instances), so I can also see why there are also a certain level of distrust in the process, especially when everything has been such hush hush (which then again is due of the needs to the legal process and investigation protocols).
Most of us have never encountered them (thankfully) in a personal capacity, so naturally, feelings will take over rational thoughts.
But of course, there are also times where the authorities have got it wrong (though very rare instances), so I can also see why there are also a certain level of distrust in the process, especially when everything has been such hush hush (which then again is due of the needs to the legal process and investigation protocols).
LivingOrganism
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You can't be serious. It's not elementary school. "I'm sorry" won't help you even if you've commited the pettiest crime possible.
AliceEsc
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That's what I read on this forum yesterday, that they asked him to apologize and he refused.
That's why I'm asking.
LivingOrganism
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Ahh I see, sorry then. Must have been fake info then.
Grinch
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AVROTROS has released a statement about the joost situation
BorisBubbles
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is that it?
IS THAT IT?
THAT is the incident that warranted an instant disqualification and a fullblown police investigation?!
this is fucking WRETCHED.
IS THAT IT?
THAT is the incident that warranted an instant disqualification and a fullblown police investigation?!
this is fucking WRETCHED.
BorisBubbles
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Certain delegations have done way worse at this contest, of which we actually have RECORDED FOOTAGE.
No wonder, , and threaten to withdraw from the final in solidarity. This is total bull.
No wonder
, , and threaten to withdraw from the final in solidarity. This is total bull.Storm
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Who cares about disqualification, isn't he also like prosecuted/investigated by Swedish police? How does this happen?
Shadowfuxcs
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So this is about the recorded incident where Israelis record him without consent, the same video that was leaked on X? And is indeed one of the people filming part of the songwriting team of Israel?
b4ld3r
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I'm actually crying reading this. I hope Joost gets locked in Swedish jail for many years over this extremely threatening motion he made. This must have been extremely scary, it's a godgiven right to film someone after they've just delievered an emotional speech about their deceased parents. Even if they say no, you have a right to shove the camera in their face. When will Rutte make his statement?
Jupiter
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That.... does absolutely not sound enough for a police investigation. Wtf? I could see EBUs hand being somewhat forced still, due to needing to take the investigation into account, but how is that enough for the police to step in in the first place? If this is indeed the full story, than this is really ridiculous.
crashworld
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Fom the Grand Final Live Discussion thread:
AVROTROS released a statement:
Basically Joost was filmed after leaving the stage, he said he didnt want this to happen and for it to stop multiple times. When they didnt stop filming he made a "threatening" figure. The woman with the camera was not hurt whatsoever or hit at all.
AVROTROS said this wasnt allowed to begin with (?)
It was probably meant to be a short clip that they post on social media of the artists before and after their act.
So this was probably someone working for SVT or EBU.
Rasmus0714
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Isn't it illegally to film without consent in sweden?
Rasmus0714
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From reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1cpefb1/comment/l3k5j92/
"I'm Dutchie living in Sweden, and was once almost fired from a university teaching job because of a single student complaint after bluntly telling my students that many of their assignments don't bother to include their name and student nr, or use basic punctuation, and that I'm not ever going to grade them until they fix that (note: so not even saying I would fail them. I gave them infinite retries).
So I'm obviously biased by the experience but I am more inclined to believe it's a clash of cultures: Dutch bluntness vs Swedish direct conflict avoidance and aggressive conflict escalation via official complaint channels.
edit: since this is getting more visibility than I expected, I want to add a bit of nuance so people don't think I'm crapping on Swedish culture. I think both countries are charming because of these cultural traits, the problem is that both can take it too far, and since they are polar opposites it can really clash. But I like living here partially because the Dutch bluntness often manifests as aggressively asserting opinions as truths with unearned confidence, whereas in my experience Swedes tend to be a lot more aware that whatever they say is their interpretation, and much more willing to listen to each other's pov. In a perfect world our countries would learn a bit from each other here."
"I'm Dutchie living in Sweden, and was once almost fired from a university teaching job because of a single student complaint after bluntly telling my students that many of their assignments don't bother to include their name and student nr, or use basic punctuation, and that I'm not ever going to grade them until they fix that (note: so not even saying I would fail them. I gave them infinite retries).
So I'm obviously biased by the experience but I am more inclined to believe it's a clash of cultures: Dutch bluntness vs Swedish direct conflict avoidance and aggressive conflict escalation via official complaint channels.
edit: since this is getting more visibility than I expected, I want to add a bit of nuance so people don't think I'm crapping on Swedish culture. I think both countries are charming because of these cultural traits, the problem is that both can take it too far, and since they are polar opposites it can really clash. But I like living here partially because the Dutch bluntness often manifests as aggressively asserting opinions as truths with unearned confidence, whereas in my experience Swedes tend to be a lot more aware that whatever they say is their interpretation, and much more willing to listen to each other's pov. In a perfect world our countries would learn a bit from each other here."