The Netherlands NETHERLANDS 2024 - Joost Klein - Europapa

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[shameless]

This lack of transparency drives me crazy. I’m not sure what to believe or who to trust.

It is normal that we cannot get the full story right after it happened. Even a day after I consider as too recent. People are just not used to that anymore (yet after the pandemic we should) because everyone is just eager to create narratives out of it.

No matter what is the outcome, this disqualifcation is just one of a lot of sad moments this year. Starting with Sweden winning /hosting again, everything surrounding the Israel-participation, the behavior of artists including Marina Zatti and Joost during the pressconfernce - no matter what is ones own opinion - all of these things will look very bad in a few years and I am afraid, they really reflect the current climate of our society how to deal with conflicts. I really, really hope that when people are looking back to this contest they will say "Oh yeah, these times were brutal" and the future will be somewhat better, as Joost said by himself, its all about progression. May that all end soon.

 

[0scar]

You're not exactly the right person to bring up bias, while talking as if a great injustice had befallen someone so likely innocent, as if you knew Joost personally.

I don't claim to know what happened. I said several times we know nothing. I'm simply saying "Atrovos would not be on his side if he punched someone" is a dumbass argument, bcs historically arguments like that often don't hold.

Not really sure what you mean as I'm literally saying anywhere that it could be very well deserved that Joost is DQ, but the lack of transparency and the way this is handled is terrible by the EBU? But ok agree that I might not be the right person to have an objective opinion on this matter as the entry of my country just got disqualified.

But
Stating that it is a dumbass argument that our broadcaster is standing behind Joost and through in one go alluding that people cannot be trusted because in some other cases that didn't hold, is really hurtful towards the credibility you give AVROTROS, while nothing in the past has proven to be that they don't have integrity? That's bullshit man.

 

[Shadowfuxcs]

A bit of a tone deaf question, but are the Netherlands still voting tonight? Just wondering if we can still give a televote.
Also the juries have now voted on a different lineup of songs than the one in the live final, since Joost could be ranked in the jury show. I guess that everyone ranked below him in each country's jury will be bumped up one place but still his participation will have had an impact on the jurors and it affects the result.

 

[0scar]

A bit of a tone deaf question, but are the Netherlands still voting tonight? Just wondering if we can still give a televote.
Also the juries have now voted on a different lineup of songs than the one in the live final, since Joost could be ranked in the jury show. I guess that everyone ranked below him in each country's jury will be bumped up one place but still his participation will have had an impact on the jurors and it affects the result.

I think we're still voting. At least Nikkie is still giving our jury points tonight.
So incredibly Dutch to be extremely harsh on EBU and this decision but still broadcasting and voting tonight lol

 

[SirPeterGriffin]

That statement is a whole load of bullshit! So merciless with an undetermined case but turns a blind eye on the terrorist state whose delegations members and journalists keep harassing and threathening other participants.

United by music my ass! This is the time where all artists should stand in solidarity with this grotesque situation. Boycott the flag parade, deliver an anti-EBU message after performing, don't talk with the presenters...AND FUCK YOU OSTERDAHL, YOU DISGUSTING COWARD!

 

[CatTully]

Artist should boycott contest, because some other contestant is investigated by the police?

 

[b4ld3r]

Impossible to know what the EBU should or should not have done until the specifics are leaked. This is a grown man, so he's responsible for his own actions. Just sad.

I do however think people should not allege that he actually assaulted someone when there's no reports of such a thing happening, from credible sources at least.

 

[HayashiM]

So if he performed tonight and won but say 2/3 months later is found guilty, you DQ him then and do what with the winners’ trophy? Hand it to second place?

He wouldn't have won. But yes, it's a common practise with dopers at the Olympics.

Do we wipe the win from the record? What happens to the host country etc?

There are options - joint hostings, letting Joost participate with explicit acknowledgement the second place finisher will be offered the hosting... And in all this, he would have to win in the first place.

If Joost is cleared, there is nothing preventing him from coming back another year is there?

LMFAO. If he is cleared, you have unnecessarily punished an innocent by taking his shot away from him - any future options are completely irrelevant. Mind you - I think he is very very probably indeed guilty, but that doesn't matter - until proven guilty, he should be treated as innocent. If we don't adhere to that principle, our civilised societies are doomed.

 

[Shadowfuxcs]

I think we're still voting. At least Nikkie is still giving our jury points tonight.
So incredibly Dutch to be extremely harsh on EBU and this decision but still broadcasting and voting tonight lol

It's been a while but I remember Serbia-Montenegro had to give votes in 2006 despite withdrawing weeks in advance, only because they had already submitted a song (which their own broadcaster blocked shortly after), so most likely the Netherlands will have to vote to not receive a fine and/or future disqualification.

 

[Rocket man]

The EBU are going through their processes, if Joost had followed the rules like the other contestants then the EBU would not have had a reason to disqualify him. There was no way the EBU could have allowed him to carry on participating if they felt he was a risk to EBU staff members.

 

[soulm8]

The EBU are going through their processes, if Joost had followed the rules like the other contestants then the EBU would not have had a reason to disqualify him. There was no way the EBU could have allowed him to carry on participating if they felt he was a risk to EBU staff members.

Is this post from 2001? Cause wake up, baby! Maybe there was no way they gonna use fake applause for one country only, isn’t this a disgrace to begin with? I’m actually surprised people are not making a big thing out of it! They manipulate the reception of certain song, they blind-folded everyone on the TV screen and that’s okay?

 

[Irish Cameltoe]

I think we're still voting.

The NL should not vote and kindly ask the EBU to fuck themselves.

 

[lasse braun]

weird swedish laws any impact here?

 

[Rocket man]

Is this post from 2001? Cause wake up, baby! Maybe there was no way they gonna use fake applause for one country only, isn’t this a disgrace to begin with? I’m actually surprised people are not making a big thing out of it! They manipulate the reception of certain song, they blind-folded everyone on the TV screen and that’s okay?

Joost is not the anti-Israel hero you want.

 

[Ted Talks]

He wouldn't have won. But yes, it's a common practise with dopers at the Olympics.

There are options - joint hostings, letting Joost participate with explicit acknowledgement the second place finisher will be offered the hosting... And in all this, he would have to win in the first place.

LMFAO. If he is cleared, you have unnecessarily punished an innocent by taking his shot away from him - any future options are completely irrelevant. Mind you - I think he is very very probably indeed guilty, but that doesn't matter - until proven guilty, he should be treated as innocent. If we don't adhere to that principle, our civilised societies are doomed.

And in the world of football we’ve recently had players under investigation and immediately suspended from duty. That’s the correct method if you ask me.

If they’re cleared, they can return. If not and are charged etc, then at least the law proceeds as it should. I don’t see how this is different to me. You can’t carry on as if nothing is happening.

Unfortunately because of the law - and social media - anyone arrested or investigated is presumed guilty by people online/the press even if they’re cleared.

That’s where the law is an ass sadly. I don’t see how you can get around it.

If he performed tonight and is later charged, the horrendous message that sends out to potential victims would be unfathomable.

 

[Jupiter]

Not really sure what you mean as I'm literally saying anywhere that it could be very well deserved that Joost is DQ, but the lack of transparency and the way this is handled is terrible by the EBU? But ok agree that I might not be the right person to have an objective opinion on this matter as the entry of my country just got disqualified.

But
Stating that it is a dumbass argument that our broadcaster is standing behind Joost and through in one go alluding that people cannot be trusted because in some other cases that didn't hold, is really hurtful towards the credibility you give AVROTROS, while nothing in the past has proven to be that they don't have integrity? That's bullshit man.

You can find it disrespectful, but I'm not gonna change my mind of it - the involved broadcaster backing their own entry is in no way a sign of what happened or not for me. I'd say the same with any broadcaster. Something happened, the only question is what a "proportinal" reaction would be. For one, I think most broadcasters would argue for leniency so their entry could compete. And than yes, more often than not, aggression (especially from men) has been tolerated and hushed so popularity and money could be prioritized. I tend to think whatever happened must be severe, simply because I don't see EBU willing to potentially lose a country and bring tons of negative press to themselves over an issue that would allow another option. I'm not all that fond of the EBU currently, and I agree they don't seem to handle this well. But they simply took the harder road for themselves, so I'm more willing to assume circumstances really forced this.

As for me discrediting Avrotros - if that's the kind of argument made, I'd say plenty of comments here are at least indirectly already discrediting the alleged victim (including some of yours, if I remember that right). I don't think that's any better, quite the contrary.

 

[Irish Cameltoe]

If he performed tonight and is later charged, the horrendous message that sends out to potential victims would be unfathomable.

Jesus, can one get more DRAMATIC?

 

[Ted Talks]

You can find it disrespectful, but I'm not gonna change my mind of it - the involved broadcaster backing their own entry is in no way a sign of what happened or not for me. I'd say the same with any broadcaster. Something happened, the only question is what a "proportinal" reaction would be. For one, I think most broadcasters would argue for leniency so their entry could compete. And than yes, more often than not, aggression (especially from men) has been tolerated and hushed so popularity and money could be prioritized. I tend to think whatever happened must be severe, simply because I don't see EBU willing to potentially lose a country and bring tons of negative press to themselves over an issue that would allow another option. I'm not all that fond of the EBU currently, and I agree they don't seem to handle this well. But they simply took the harder road for themselves, so I'm more willing to assume circumstances really forced this.

As for me discrediting Avrotros - if that's the kind of argument made, I'd say plenty of comments here are at least indirectly already discrediting the alleged victim (including some of yours, if I remember that right). I don't think that's any better, quite the contrary.

There is a definite feeling of many backing Joost regardless of what’s happened and the victim getting forgotten in all of this. I doubt the allegation was made lightly.

Jesus, can one get more DRAMATIC?

I don’t think it’s that dramatic tbh. SHOUTING IN CAPITALS AT ME BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE PROBABLY IS THOUGH.

 

[Sammy]

And what if he didn't and the investigation turns out to be that he didn't doing anything wrong and it's just one person unfairly accusing him? Then he's stripped of his Eurovision experience for NOTHING

I suppose in case, that he’s cleared 100% of all allegations he‘ll come back next year with a new song and wins the televote by a landslide.

 

[HayashiM]

And in the world of football we’ve recently had players under investigation and immediately suspended from duty. That’s the correct method if you ask me.

I strongly disagree and will rather leave it at that.

If he performed tonight and is later charged, the horrendous message that sends out to potential victims would be unfathomable.

If he is innocent, he is effectively the victim himself. What a great message it is in that case...