The Netherlands NETHERLANDS 2024 - Joost Klein - Europapa

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[HayashiM]

So you’re happy to let a man under investigation for inappropriate behaviour perform tonight?

Of course it’s all alleged at this point but even if he’s later cleared he shouldn’t be allowed to perform tonight.

Would you feel okay if he was allowed to perform tonight and then the investigation concludes he was responsible for what is alleged?

I am more ok with allowing him to perform tonight and possibly DQing him once he is in fact found guilty, even if it's months in the future. He can be DQ'd anytime, but you can't retroactively put him back on stage should he be found not guilty (which can easily happen).

 

[0scar]

As for "if Joost had really punched someone, Artovos would not support him": yes, men sticking up for other men who have been violent towards women has never happened. Never. Not once in history /s

yeah sure except that the head of NPO is a woman but ok sure

 

[Jupiter]

yeah sure except that the head of NPO is a woman but ok sure

Then change it to women sticking up for violent men. Nothing new either.

 

[0scar]

Then change it to women sticking up for violent men. Nothing new either.

You're blinded by your own prejudices of how things work to actually be able to distinguish what is reality and how you expect things to be.

 

[banana]

'Threats of violence' can mean different things to different people. Shoved? Beaten to a bleed? Wished death? Let's not dramatize. Only one thing is clear - it's definitely unacceptable behavior.

The EBU did the right thing not disclosing any details. Athletes end careers over physical violence. Slander that someone committed this physical violence is the end of reputation. This needs to be officially established.

 

[RainyWoods]

This is probably the most shocking, drastic thing to happen most of us have witnessed since we've been following the contest. I don't know how to feel. Sadness obviously for the Dutch, the team behind the entry and all the fans of the song. I don't know how to feel for Joost as we don't know what happened, if it happened or the severity of the incident. Regardless, the man has just lost his dream. It can only be crushing.

Song wise this has been my favourite contest since the cancelled Covid year. First one I've found myself passionately getting behind entries in quite a while, and yet the whole thing has been such a big unpleasant, toxic mess. An utter shambles on so many fronts, and it's such a shame. Eurovision used to bring me so much joy but the tension and anxiety I feel this year overwhelms everything else.

 

[Jupiter]

You're blinded by your own prejudices of how things work to actually be able to distinguish what is reality and how you expect things to be.

Lol

You're not exactly the right person to bring up bias, while talking as if a great injustice had befallen someone so likely innocent, as if you knew Joost personally.

I don't claim to know what happened. I said several times we know nothing. I'm simply saying "Atrovos would not be on his side if he punched someone" is a dumbass argument, bcs historically arguments like that often don't hold.

 

[Zeus]

Rumours are that Dutch broadcaster AVROTros now plans to be back next year and send Joost Klein again, this time with the song "EBUpapa", an ode to Executive Supervisor Martin Österdahl.

 

[b4ld3r]

This is the story of the year for gossip journalists in the Netherlands, I can imagine we will have a version of events public within 24 hours.

 

[Paco Roca]

I am more ok with allowing him to perform tonight and possibly DQing him once he is in fact found guilty, even if it's months in the future. He can be DQ'd anytime, but you can't retroactively put him back on stage should he be found not guilty (which can easily happen).

I feel sorry for Joost and the Dutch fans. The Eurovision Song Contest is supposed to be about fun and brotherhood but it seems we always see controversies.

By having Joost perform tonight and maybe he wins the competition after what do you do? Take away the prize from the Netherlands in case of future conviction and disqualification?

The Eurovision Song Contest is not just covers, studio products and main event but also knowing how to move with tact. It's possible that Joost has all the reasons in the world but he expressed his opinions badly and gave himself the chance to get hit. You win and lose also due to details, in addition to luck.

 

[Ted Talks]

I am more ok with allowing him to perform tonight and possibly DQing him once he is in fact found guilty, even if it's months in the future. He can be DQ'd anytime, but you can't retroactively put him back on stage should he be found not guilty (which can easily happen).

So if he performed tonight and won but say 2/3 months later is found guilty, you DQ him then and do what with the winners’ trophy? Hand it to second place?

Do we wipe the win from the record? What happens to the host country etc?

If Joost is cleared, there is nothing preventing him from coming back another year is there?

 

[Chorizo]

Dutch Eurovision commentator Cornald Maas (AVROTROS) again:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1789240040872161742

If he had actually hit a woman as some people say, the broadcaster surely wouldn't call the disqualification "disproportionate and disgraceful".

 

[Reinventor]

So you’re happy to let a man under investigation for inappropriate behaviour perform tonight?

Of course it’s all alleged at this point but even if he’s later cleared he shouldn’t be allowed to perform tonight.

Would you feel okay if he was allowed to perform tonight and then the investigation concludes he was responsible for what is alleged?

I can't stress "innocent until proven guilty" enough. I'm shocked there are people that are ready to hang somebody without even knowing they're guilty. These are the same people that in the Middle Ages would be screaming "Hang Him" on the town square without knowing anything.

 

[Ewigkeit]

This lack of transparency drives me crazy. I’m not sure what to believe or who to trust.

 

[Zeus]

I’m not sure what to believe or who to trust.

Me in NSC

 

[CatTully]

If there's really a police investigation, then there can't really be that much transparency can it? Isn't it kinda logical?

 

[Ted Talks]

I don’t disagree with the innocent until proven guilty mantra, it’s a fundamental part of society, but there’s an investigation happening. The law will find him either innocent or guilty. That’s how it works.

You can’t let him perform with that investigation hanging over his head surely? What kind of mental state is Joost in for a start? His welfare would need checking.

But so is the welfare of his alleged victim which does appear to be forgotten a lot amid all these posts. If what is alleged is true, how would she feel to see him perform tonight?

 

[Himan]

Honestly, it depends a little bit. If he's in jail, of course he can't participate. If he slapped someone and we can't know, for safety reasons of the women in question, than it's fine to. But if it is something non fysica,.just a bit angry. I'm disagreeing.

 

[CatTully]

But so is the welfare of his alleged victim which does appear to be forgotten a lot amid all these posts. If what is alleged is true, how would she feel to see him perform tonight?

Not to mention other members of production crew, who might also feel threatened.

 

[Storm]

If he had actually hit a woman as some people say, the broadcaster surely wouldn't call the disqualification "disproportionate and disgraceful".

Thats why I think this is very unlikely.
But there could have been a verbal argument, insults, threats. Who knows where to draw the line... Whats enough for slap on the wrist? I dont think the EBU is wrong for a zero tolerance policy....