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Televotes vs. Juries - Your guess

FilipFromSweden

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When will all the jury and televoting results be out? It feels like EBU is milking it '' wrap up: Bulgarian entry '' are you going to take all 42 before the results!??!?
 

FilipFromSweden

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Haha it feels so good that still even if all baltic and nordic countrys points to Sweden would not have counted, Sweden would still have won xheart
 

FilipFromSweden

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Actually i think Sweden got like 412 points by televoters or something and maybe 300 by jury?
Well.. i must say that Sweden was the televoting winner last year to.. (logical)
 

Arv

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Televotes won by russia easily. Sweden is definitely the juries' favourite.
 

FilipFromSweden

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This is how i think (god this is hard)

Televoters:
1. Sweden
2. Russia
3. Serbia
4. Romania
5. Azerbaijan

Jury:
1. Sweden
2. Albania
3. Serbia
4. Azerbaijan
5. Spain
 

Franco

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No, but a single point out of Italy wouldn't be much to ask for. And it's still suspicious how Italy, Portugal and San Marino all banded together and gave "Euphoria" so little to no points. People were concerned Eastern Europe would be Loreen's fall, but it was the Ibero-Italo Mafia that gave her her lowest scores. The fact that the Italian and San Marinese juries seem to have voted pretty much identically is also a bit suspect.

Still holding the grudge? :lol:
Why can't I see Russia madding the same way for Switzerland being the only country not giving them any point?
If there is something wrong in the italian jury vote, I think it's that they didn't reward Spain and that they dimmed down macedonian achievements from televote, while they pushed up Russia too much. Sweden is a minor issue (althought they probably deserved the 2 points granted from televote IMHO).
 

swild

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My prediction...

Televoters:
1. Sweden
2. Russia
3. Serbia
4. Romania
5. albania

Jury:
1. Sweden
2. Italy
3. Azerbaijan
4. Serbia
5. Estonia
 

EurovisionSmile

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As expected. The way the Portuguese, San Marinese (jury only) and Italian juries voted was highly suspect. 3/3/0 (total) to Sweden. Italy and San Marino both awarded Albania 12. It's almost like they all banded together and deliberately gave Sweden low marks because they thought Italy stood a chance at beating Sweden.

This conspirancy theory sounds silly, really... And besides, do you really believe there's no personal taste involved in how the jury votes?
 

GRE

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Turkey had 112 points,and Romania had 71 points,and you believe Romania did better than Turkey in televoting?
 

FallenAngelII

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Which means the Italian jury likely gave her 0 points. Highly suspect.

But what do you want?
You can't obey people to vote for a song because everyone else likes no?

You can turn it the way you want, the juries will always represent a bit of personal opinion.
1) Then they're not doing their jobs.
2) It's not that I think they should be blamed for having bad taste, it's that I think they deliberately gave Sweden very few points because they wanted to help Italy win since many believed Italy stood a chance, i.e. corruption.

And if the jury in Italy and San Marino said: hmm it's a bit overhyped OR they "blamed" Loreen for the "snow-incident", what can you do about it?
Enough to give her 0 points (the most likely results from the Italian jury)?

By the way, by the looks of the Italian televote, it's likely that Russia won the Italian jury vote because while the televote only gave Russia 6 points, they ended up with 10 points overall. Sound jury voting?

That's quite stupid. Then, why didn't they give their 12 points to Italy?
To be less obvious? There was possibly some collusion involved since RAI controlled both juries. That their results were so similar is mysterious.

Look Fallen Angel, even in televote Sweden was 8th in Italy...

so it was not only the juries fault I presume...
Yes, it was. 8th with the televoters meant 3 points, which means that the juries likely gave her 0 points... while likely giving Russia 12. Sound jury voting?

The combined televote from Israel, Finland, Germany and Portugal

1. Russia
2. Sweden
3. Turkey
4. Spain
5. Moldova
6. Romania
7. Serbia
8. Azerbaijan
9. Estonia
10. Albania
Why were these announced together? o_O

No matter what instructions the EBU gives the juries, the juries will vote, first and foremost, for songs they like. Just because a song is a potential hit, for example, it doesn't mean a jury has to vote for it. Sure, Sweden was liked by many people but no song is liked by everyone. It doesn't mean there was some conspiracy just because some juries didn't like Euphoria.
But that is actually one of there foremost criteria: Whether or not a song has the potential to become a hit song. Also, it's suspect that there's so much overlap between the Italian and San Marinese jury votes. So these 10 people just happened to all like/dislike pretty much the same songs with a few exceptions?

Btw. FallenAngelII, you are again referring extensively to some background information about the jury instructions that you indicate to have. I would like to see those information in detail and your sources. The EBU rulebook only mentions a 'green document' for specifics, which I so far have been unable to dig up. I have already made this request to you, but there was no response.
ESCToday wrote about the rules a few years back. Other sources also covered them. Either they all lied and the EBU never disputed them or the EBU covertly changed the rules without telling anyone. Or they still stand.

I cannot dig them up because they're several years old and I'm lazy. Also, ESCToday is down for the foreseable future. Off the top of my head, these were mentioned as being among the criteria the juries were to look out for:
* Song first, singing not so much
* Singing not so much period (which explains why some really bad singers manage to sometime score pretty well with the juries)
* Whether or not a song is good, period, not if it's good after having listened to it only once
* Staging should be a complement, not the element that carries the entire production (i.e. weak songs dressed up in lavish stage shows should not do well)
(* Negate diaspora and neighbour voting)

The above are pretty much no-brainers, really. The reason why people complained so much after the 2008 contest was the very fact that the televoters often ignored song quality for lavish stage shows and songs that needed to be listened to more than once to be remembered.

Also, if you think about it, it's blatantly obvious that there are rules for the juries besides "Vote for whatever you like best" because if the juries are given zero rules and/or instructions and have free reign, you're basically giving away 50% of the power to 5 in each country.

This conspirancy theory sounds silly, really... And besides, do you really believe there's no personal taste involved in how the jury votes?
When did I ever claim that? They still have some clear instructions. If it's just a free-for-all "Vote for whatever you like", then you're basically handing over 50% of the power to the personal tastes of 210 people.



By the way, I'm not arguing that what I'm putting forward as a possibility is the truth. It is a possibility, nothing more. It's not going to enrich my life if it's true. It's not gonna be a detriment to me if it isn't. But it would be disconcerting if it were.
 

EurovisionSmile

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What you say sounds as if quality is something very objective, if it was, all juries would give exactly the same points to a song. When did you see something like that happen? Even in the 'old times', that never happened! So there's naturally subjectivity in the way the different juries evaluate a song. So there must be personal like or dislike, personal sensitivity and obviously added to knowledge that the common viewers don't have about music. It seems to me that you think Swedish song was the best that ever competed in ESC. You'll probably have to deal with the fact that either juries and televoters don't agree with you on that. Don't get me wrong, personally I love 'Euphoria', but I can't see the point in all these questions and suspicions you're raising.
 

FallenAngelII

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What you say sounds as if quality is something very objective, if it was, all juries would give exactly the same points to a song. When did you see something like that happen?
Again: I never said there was no subjectivity involved.

However, seeing as how it's so subjective, it's funny how the San Marinese and Italian juries agreed so much with each other.
 

busybee

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Well, San Marino is in Italy, you know. I don't find it strange that they have similar taste in music. Take any country within a 'neighbourhood' and you'll see the same thing..maybe they won't agree on all countries all the time but they will on many. Ex yugos, ex soviets, Scandinavians. For example, Croatia and Slovenia voted for 9/10 same countries in the final..Albania, Russia, B&H, Italy, Sweden, Germany, F.Y.R. Macedonia, Serbia and Moldova..they only 'disagreed' on Ireland and Iceland. Does that mean they had agreed on the votes beforehand? Or that they just have similar taste? Even if you 'justify' some of those points with 'neighbour voting', there are still countries in there that were voted simply because they were liked by both nations.
 

FilipFromSweden

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Then they're not doing their jobs
I must agree many jury groups are not doing their jobs. How could Moldova finish 12th in the final and 10th in the semifinal 2011? Almost every song was better then that song. It feels like they voted for the country, not for the song. And Georgian jury group is just wrong. They voted so Lithuania and Belarus got 12 points, still their songs sucked? POLITICS
 

Sim

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i'm not going to answer again on fallenangel:p

if he wants to complain because sweden won with a landslide, his problem.
It's probably never enough for people and they want everything...
a bit arrogant for me, just respect that not everybody like the song.

I didn't complain in 2010 when we won the semi and some countries gave us "only" 3.
I'm just happy that also eastern european countries liked Tom also.
 

DanielLuis

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Again: I never said there was no subjectivity involved.

However, seeing as how it's so subjective, it's funny how the San Marinese and Italian juries agreed so much with each other.

You do however realize that its ridiculous that you're doing such a dramatic drama because 3 and only 3 countries out of 42 gave less than 7 points to your country........you're actually starting a conspiracy theory because SM and PT gave Sweden 3 and Italy 0...its ridiculous!
Your country won with a difference of more than 100 points to the 2nd...be happy with that!
God I wouldnt want to be next to you in May 2010 for sure!
 

CC92

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^ Maybe she just cares about fairness rather than her personal favourites?
 

drhierbas

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You do however realize that its ridiculous that you're doing such a dramatic drama because 3 and only 3 countries out of 42 gave less than 7 points to your country........you're actually starting a conspiracy theory because SM and PT gave Sweden 3 and Italy 0...its ridiculous!
Your country won with a difference of more than 100 points to the 2nd...be happy with that!
God I wouldnt want to be next to you in May 2010 for sure!

9 countries gave Sweden 6 points and less.
 

EurovisionSmile

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I must agree many jury groups are not doing their jobs. How could Moldova finish 12th in the final and 10th in the semifinal 2011? Almost every song was better then that song. It feels like they voted for the country, not for the song. And Georgian jury group is just wrong. They voted so Lithuania and Belarus got 12 points, still their songs sucked? POLITICS

That's your personal opinion, not a universal truth.
 
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