Bringing back the language rule!

[A-lister]

I say the same as above, and in the majority of European countries, English is understood by a majority, if not a very large minority. Yes there are probably exceptions to this, but in general that is the case in European countries - even in say France, which places an extremely high value on its own language and has a very strong national identity itself - much stronger than the English-speaking nations incidentally.

You have a very narrow-minded view on Europe. Yes, in general English is the "second language", but there are still regions where Russian or German or even some other language is the "second language". In no doubt English is slowly taking over that role even in those countries, but we're not there just yet.

Well then what do you propose should happen? A language rule is against freedom of choice but no language rule leads to 'everything' being in English. Seeing as many countries still sing in their native languages, I strongly believe that no language rule is better .

I've proposed it before. I think the juries should have in their guidelines to encourage songs in native languages, or we could just kick out the juries once and for all and see what will happen then, maybe have some sort of % rule. Many countries sing in native languages? Do we watch the same show? I hope you know why this thread started, because almost NO countries chose to sing in native language any longer, and with this progress there will be none in just a couple of years time.

If the United Kingdom sent an entry in French do you think that it would be representing French culture? Of course not. It would still be representing British culture, just in another language. By having an entry in English does not impose a culture on anybody and in fact it is the countries themselves who are choosing to sing in English, nobody's forcing them - not the English-speaking contestants and not the EBU!

I beg to differ. A language is an integrated and important part of what makes a nation and a culture. The reason why English has the status it has is because of historical world order of imperialism and domination (firstly by UK/England and then by USA) and not because it's some self-chosen thing around the world. English is NOT representing all cultures and countries there are in Europe, it is just representing a historical fact more or less.

Have we had this discussion some hundred years ago it would have been about French, during the 1930's German would have been the topic here.. so you mean that imperialism and domination "represents" cultures?

And no, just as much as I don't think you could say English represent non-English speaking countries' cultures, I don't think French could really represent English culture either (to comment your example).

But there are two aspects of this discussion which should not be forgotten, and you have been mentioning it aswell. There's the language aspect, where English is more or less taking over 100%, and then there's the more music-cultural aspect, where up until the juries you could have success with let's say an ethno-pop song (although in English) but now not even that works! Which leaves us with English language only and music only inspired by the Anglo-music culture (mostly USA).

So much for European diversity huh?

 

[Yamarus]

If the United Kingdom sent an entry in French do you think that it would be representing French culture? Of course not. It would still be representing British culture, just in another language. By having an entry in English does not impose a culture on anybody and in fact it is the countries themselves who are choosing to sing in English, nobody's forcing them - not the English-speaking contestants and not the EBU!

Culture and language are intricately linked. In the globalising world, dominated by the United States, English has become the new Latin and I'm fine with that. English allows the world to communicate easily. But the ESC should remember the "European" part in the song contest, and display our continent's amazing cultural diversity. Bundesvision displays the diversity of Germany's musical landscape, with a flexible language rule. Why is that not possible for the ESC?

 

[CC92]

Bundesvision displays the diversity of Germany's musical landscape [...]

Actually it represents the pop and pop-rock scene only or almost only. For the rest though I totally agree in everything, guys. Probably we will really need two contests if broadcasters continue insisting upon their freaky disney visions (what public obviously does not want). Some solution must be found but as others said EBU is not eager to introduce the language rule at the moment.

 

[Magikk]

I am not sure if that was within the Bundesvision, but didn't Germany send the metal band Knorkator years ago? I would hardly call that pop music.

 

[Matt]

No knorkator never represented Germany. I believe they once tried but failed in the national final

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

You have a very narrow-minded view on Europe. Yes, in general English is the "second language", but there are still regions where Russian or German or even some other language is the "second language". In no doubt English is slowly taking over that role even in those countries, but we're not there just yet.

It's not really about the 'second language', it's about the most spoken overseas language, and the fact is that in Europe, a majority of the people have some form of knowledge of English - that is not true for either Russian or German. Not many people know those languages outside their 'sphere's of influence'. After English, it is French that is the main language of Europe, which is why Im a supporter of French continuing to have special status at Eurovision.

I've proposed it before. I think the juries should have in their guidelines to encourage songs in native languages, or we could just kick out the juries once and for all and see what will happen then, maybe have some sort of % rule. Many countries sing in native languages? Do we watch the same show? I hope you know why this thread started, because almost NO countries chose to sing in native language any longer, and with this progress there will be none in just a couple of years time.

Okay that's a fair enough proposal - I understand where you're coming from but I still dont like the fact that a brilliant song may miss out on points because it is in English, that isnt fair at all. Lets take 'Is It True?' for example. An amazing song, finished 2nd, it may have finished lower than that if this rule was brought in because Yohanna chose to sing in English. That isnt fair, it could end up underrating great songs in English and overrating crap songs in native languages.

I beg to differ. A language is an integrated and important part of what makes a nation and a culture. The reason why English has the status it has is because of historical world order of imperialism and domination (firstly by UK/England and then by USA) and not because it's some self-chosen thing around the world. English is NOT representing all cultures and countries there are in Europe, it is just representing a historical fact more or less.

The way in which it got 'big' round the world doesnt really have much relevance to Eurovision, and it was only enforced upon the colonies, countries in Europe have chosen to use English themselves. In the same way they choose to sing in English at Eurovision - the United Kingdom isnt going round forcing people to sing in English is it? In fact, it's in our advantage if others dont sing in English.

Have we had this discussion some hundred years ago it would have been about French, during the 1930's German would have been the topic here.. so you mean that imperialism and domination "represents" cultures?

And no, just as much as I don't think you could say English represent non-English speaking countries' cultures, I don't think French could really represent English culture either (to comment your example).

It wasnt really a global village back then - people tended to be monolingual. Im saying the example from the perspective of that if the United Kingdom sent a song in French, it wouldnt not be British culture, it still would be, but just in another language. But as I've said, I do totally get where you're coming from because I admit I personally prefer our songs to be in our own language.

But there are two aspects of this discussion which should not be forgotten, and you have been mentioning it aswell. There's the language aspect, where English is more or less taking over 100%, and then there's the more music-cultural aspect, where up until the juries you could have success with let's say an ethno-pop song (although in English) but now not even that works! Which leaves us with English language only and music only inspired by the Anglo-music culture (mostly USA).

There are still many languages in native languages and I think you're totally wrong about the Anglo-American music culture being favoured, if anything we're discriminated against, hence why we didnt win with Jade Ewen or Blue. The style which is given preference is Balkan music - I personally find it a very bad sound, it's not my style at all, but it does well, and Im criticised when I speak frankly about the likes of Marija, Dino Merlin, Laka, etc. It's a bit unfair to say that Anglo-American is preferred, because it obviously isnt .

 

[Yamarus]

After English, it is French that is the main language of Europe, which is why Im a supporter of French continuing to have special status at Eurovision.

Even though I speak French and would like it to remain the second language of the ESC, I think German is a much more common lingua franca than French in Central Europe, and Russian in the former Soviet Union.

The way in which it got 'big' round the world doesnt really have much relevance to Eurovision, and it was only enforced upon the colonies, countries in Europe have chosen to use English themselves. In the same way they choose to sing in English at Eurovision - the United Kingdom isnt going round forcing people to sing in English is it? In fact, it's in our advantage if others dont sing in English.

The reason for the dominance of English is not the United Kingdom but the United States' economic and cultural dominance, especially in Europe. It is a form of "imperialism", much like Latin was the lingua franca in the Roman Empire. Let me add that I attach no negative connotation to "imperialism" in this particular context, it is just a fact that the United States is overwhelmingly present in European economies and cultures (Hollywood films and American music literaly dwarf local productions).

There are still many languages in native languages and I think you're totally wrong about the Anglo-American music culture being favoured, if anything we're discriminated against, hence why we didnt win with Jade Ewen or Blue.

Now I've lost you. How you can consider that Blue and Jade Ewen were "discriminated against" is beyond me. They ended up in very good spots for performances that just did not blow away the competition like the UK regularly did in previous decades.

The style which is given preference is Balkan music - I personally find it a very bad sound, it's not my style at all, but it does well, and Im criticised when I speak frankly about the likes of Marija, Dino Merlin, Laka, etc. It's a bit unfair to say that Anglo-American is preferred, because it obviously isnt .

Ethno-pop was doing well in the ESC until recently. Neither "Satellite" nor "Running Scared" belong to that category, however. And let's not talk about the runner-ups: "We Could Be The Same" is typical MTV-rock band, and "Madness of Love" is not exactly Balkanic.

 

[Mickey]

Ethno-pop was doing well in the ESC until recently. Neither "Satellite" nor "Running Scared" belong to that category, however. And let's not talk about the runner-ups: "We Could Be The Same" is typical MTV-rock band, and "Madness of Love" is not exactly Balkanic.

I think it's worth pointing out that Serbia have stopped sending ethno. I don't think it's anything to do with the juries, as they stopped before they came in. I see little evidence that Balkan ethno has stopped doing well. Bosnian and Serbian ethno has consistently made the top ten. It just isn't being entered for some reason.

 

[Yamarus]

I beg to disagree. "Ovo je Balkan" is the ultimate Balkan-ethno-pop fest, and it ended up in 13th place. And what about Russia 2011's lengthy "ethnic vocal intro"?

I think that ethno-pop is an ESC trend that has seen its golden age pass, much like the Celtic fever of the mid-Nineties.

 

[Mickey]

I beg to disagree. "Ovo je Balkan" is the ultimate Balkan-ethno-pop fest

When I think Balkan ethno, I think folk ballads. I guess that's the problem when you try to discuss the treatment of ethno entries. It's impossible to agree on what classifies as ethno. You could argue that Norway won with ethno in 2009.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Even though I speak French and would like it to remain the second language of the ESC, I think German is a much more common lingua franca than French in Central Europe, and Russian in the former Soviet Union.

But not in Western Europe. For me there is no doubting that French is the second language of Europe - as I said, German's hold is on those countries which it has invaded and dominated in the past, and still dominates today - outside its 'sphere of influence', it is much less well known than French, which, like English, is a universal language. Why did the government say that I learn French instead of German? Because it is more widely understood and used. In terms of Russia, very few people speak English never mind a third language, and even if German is spoken more than French, Id imagine that the percentages are so tiny that the difference is minimal. As for the home countries, France is well known as being very proud of its language (and so it should be) and whilst they can speak more foreign languages than the United Kingdom, they're still behind say Germany - most of whom can speak English at least.

The reason for the dominance of English is not the United Kingdom but the United States' economic and cultural dominance, especially in Europe. It is a form of "imperialism", much like Latin was the lingua franca in the Roman Empire. Let me add that I attach no negative connotation to "imperialism" in this particular context, it is just a fact that the United States is overwhelmingly present in European economies and cultures (Hollywood films and American music literaly dwarf local productions).

Well lets not forget the reason why the Americans speak English in the first place . But you are right, in the world, country's official languages being English are as a consequence of our Empire, and countries speaking English who had nothing to do with us (like the European states) are as a consequence of American might in terms of culture and economics. That is not a problem for either us or the Americans though - as I said, nobody has come to say Sweden with bombs and an army saying you must speak English, nor to Germany, nor to Poland. The people of those countries have chosen to accept American culture in addition to their own - multiculturalism is what it is and I dont think that's a bad thing. Yes I wish their dominance would be less but things are rapidly becoming more equal so that will change in time. As I said, Im lucky that my country is part of the Anglo-American culture that is exported around the world meaning we already had such cultural ways, and our independent music, film and entertainment businesses are getting stronger and stronger all the time. But I understand not everybody has been lucky which is why I say I understand A-lister when he's upset about his country's songs being sang in English. But I am also saying to him that I dont think it's fair to make it a voting condition because then good songs could miss out at the expense of bad songs.

Now I've lost you. How you can consider that Blue and Jade Ewen were "discriminated against" is beyond me. They ended up in very good spots for performances that just did not blow away the competition like the UK regularly did in previous decades.

Well because they came 5th and 11th when really if it was Anglo-American music which dominated and was preferred in Eurovision, we would have probably won both times, if not get top 3. As it was shown, the Juries placed us 3rd last this year - so much for the tale that they love Anglo-American performances in English! And when you compare it to the fact that Marija will probably still have won in 2007 with the Juries, it really sums my argument up perfectly.

Ethno-pop was doing well in the ESC until recently. Neither "Satellite" nor "Running Scared" belong to that category, however. And let's not talk about the runner-ups: "We Could Be The Same" is typical MTV-rock band, and "Madness of Love" is not exactly Balkanic.

Nah they werent in that category thank God but you look at countries that did well in those years - Dino Merlin sticks in my head from this year - and compare that to brilliant 'Anglo-American' styled songs which have done badly. I know when such songs come on (Balkan sounds), I know that they will do well even though I think they're terrible, and other people are starting to cotton on to it too here.

 

[Yamarus]

That is not a problem for either us or the Americans though - as I said, nobody has come to say Sweden with bombs and an army saying you must speak English, nor to Germany, nor to Poland. The people of those countries have chosen to accept American culture in addition to their own - multiculturalism is what it is and I dont think that's a bad thing

It is not a choice. If it weren't for cultural subsidies, European cinema would not be able to compete and it would be even more marginal than it is today. Just go to your local movie theatre and count how many American films are shown as opposed to local/European productions. Same holds true for the top 50 in most European countries.

Well because they came 5th and 11th when really if it was Anglo-American music which dominated and was preferred in Eurovision, we would have probably won both times, if not get top 3.

That's because you don't have the monopoly on "Anglo-American" music anymore. Go and ask a stranger to the contest to tell you where they think "Satellite", "Running Scared", "Popular" come from. They'll probably say: US.

 

[sannerz]

Even if the language rule comes back, that doesn't mean that countries would suddenly revert to ethnic sounds or music, it just means that the songs will be sung in the native languages. You'd hear songs like "Satellite", and "Popular" sound the same except in their languages. The Western(especially US) influences on the music will still be there. I do not see the point some of you make on here.

Just because a song is sung in a native language does not mean that it is ethnic or folk.

 

[A-lister]

Even if the language rule comes back, that doesn't mean that countries would suddenly revert to ethnic sounds or music, it just means that the songs will be sung in the native languages. You'd hear songs like "Satellite", and "Popular" sound the same except in their languages. The Western(especially US) influences on the music will still be there. I do not see the point some of you make on here.

Just because a song is sung in a native language does not mean that it is ethnic or folk.

I haven't really followed the whole discussion, so I can't really tell what's been said.

But eventhough a song is sung in "American" style, each language has special unique linguistic characteristics that actually won't make the songs sounds the same even if they would be the exact same song.

This is often proven when songs are translated from one language to the other (which often happens in ESC nowadays from native to English).

So although more songs in native languages won't necessarily mean "more ethnic", they would still stand out. Also it's logically that with native languages the songs may get other local characteristics, and I don't mean ethnic, but pop (although often heavily influenced by the trends of USA) quite often differs in bit and has local touch to them.

Now with English dominating, also those small differences get lost aswell.

For instance, Russian Pop has certain local characteristics, Swedish pop in Swedish also differs quite much from American pop (which often is made by Swedes anyhow), but pop sung in English.

And do forward.

 

[A-lister]

The people of those countries have chosen to accept American culture in addition to their own - multiculturalism is what it is and I dont think that's a bad thing.

What is multiculturalism if one culture is dominating? (like in ESC)? Let's say most songs are in English and in "American" style, where's the "multiculturalism" you talk about in that? That's more like monoculturalism to me.

And as for multiculturalism it's not always a "choice of the people", there are alot of aspects to be counted into that. Some of it are accepted by the masses, while some has been forced upon them. It's really not that simple.

But if we are about to embrace "multiculturalism", then obviously all the languages AND differences that makes up Europe are what should be embraced and not the opposite right? I find a contradiction in your argumentation there.

To me, with the juries back, Eurovision is slowly turning into a miniature music parody of the bad things of European Union Like deleting nations, having some corrupt elites deciding for all etc. Instead of embracing the good aspects of European cooperation as bringing our cultures together, share what sets us apart and build mutual understandings etc.

 

[A-lister]

Nah they werent in that category thank God but you look at countries that did well in those years - Dino Merlin sticks in my head from this year - and compare that to brilliant 'Anglo-American' styled songs which have done badly. I know when such songs come on (Balkan sounds), I know that they will do well even though I think they're terrible, and other people are starting to cotton on to it too here.

This is highly subjective. So you want ALL ESC to just sound Anglo-American?

So all songs should be in English and in Anglo-American style?

To me that doesn't even sound like a Eurovision fan.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

To me, with the juries back, Eurovision is slowly turning into a miniature music parody of the bad things of European Union Like deleting nations, having some corrupt elites deciding for all etc. Instead of embracing the good aspects of European cooperation as bringing our cultures together, share what sets us apart and build mutual understandings etc.

Well I wouldnt disagree with you there with regards to the EU, but Eurovision is quite different . Firstly, the choice of songs/languages are completely up to each country - the EBU isnt imposing English. It is Sweden who chooses to sing in English - the English-speaking contestants dont force you to do it, and the EBU dont force you either. And in fact, rather than the Juries, it is Televoting which prefers English, I've always thought of the Juries quite liking traditional songs.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

This is highly subjective. So you want ALL ESC to just sound Anglo-American?

So all songs should be in English and in Anglo-American style?

To me that doesn't even sound like a Eurovision fan.

No I didnt say that did I? But I wouldnt be very sad if they all did, in the event that each country chooses to send a song in such a style. And it's just the Balkan ethnic sounds that I dislike; Im prepared to go with anything else; I supported Bosnia and Herzegovina in 2010 - they sent a brilliant song, but then it went downhill very quickly in 2011! In 2010 I also supported Serbia so there you go. That was in a native language.

 

[CC92]

@ MyHeartIsYours

All the time you speak from an overanglocentric point of view that I friendly advise you also to bear other perspectives, cultural differences, historical developments, whatever in mind even though your home country is a strong political power with a lot of impact on others.

I think it's worth pointing out that Serbia have stopped sending ethno. I don't think it's anything to do with the juries, as they stopped before they came in.

Serbia stopped sending ethno in 2011 after very poor jury treatments of their previous entries. However, it turned out to be a huge flop but was saved by the jury.

I guess it is quite logical broadcasters with their entries try to cater to the jury preferences as they own a 50% say on the official combined results as well as on the qualifiers. That is why they loth sending ethnic and folk tunes (or to speak in the broader sense: "different" –> uncommercial and especially unconventional music in general) because now they can be certain they would fail at one side. So-called authentic entries still can fare well with the audience though – the only entry in this year's final with dominating folklore parts placed 3rd – but since 90% of the songs sound 'American' they naturally are too on top positions. In 2007, for example, it was much more difficult and so four of the Top 5 had a strong European flavour if they were not even 'pure'.

Even if the language rule comes back, that doesn't mean that countries would suddenly revert to ethnic sounds or music, it just means that the songs will be sung in the native languages. You'd hear songs like "Satellite", and "Popular" sound the same except in their languages. The Western(especially US) influences on the music will still be there. I do not see the point some of you make on here.

Just because a song is sung in a native language does not mean that it is ethnic or folk.

For sure it does not but naturally local languages are most suited for local styles, one might argue they 'grew up together' as siblings, rather than the U.S. sound which is preferably done in English. The percentage of local genres, here I include not only ethno but also e.g. Schlager, would at least increase.

And it's just the Balkan ethnic sounds that I dislike [...]. In 2010 I also supported Serbia so there you go.

Well, that is unusual.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

@ MyHeartIsYours
All the time you speak from an overanglocentric point of view that I friendly advise you also to bear other perspectives, cultural differences, historical developments, whatever in mind even though your home country is a strong political power with a lot of impact on others.

You're totally right, I know I do lol, but in this case not. Im not talking about the United Kingdom, Im talking about the fact that English and French will always be the big languages at Eurovision, and the fact that countries have a right to choose to sing in English if they so wish .

Well, that is unusual.

It was a more poppy, unusual version of Balkan ethnic music, hence why I liked it .