Bringing back the language rule!

[AlekS]

Well we had more of the latter for sure. I can just think about a couple of songs that represented that in each of the past 2 years, while between 2004-2009 there were quite a healthy bunch of those.

Eurovision growing gave alot of new flavor, but unfortunately I see the same patterns repeated with the juries as it was back in the days; English favored, ethnic disfavored.

2004-2009 ... that's 6 years
as I've said it's extremely unfair comparing 3 years to 6... wait for another 3 years and then compare and make fair conclusions.

Then we see different patterns. Ethnic entry shouldn't be favored if it sucks

 

[A-lister]

If the jury's quest is to pick the best songs then why do you care about languges so much?

English had advantage with televoters only so it doesn't prove anything. In fact you have nothing to prove.
Blame televoters and me as well for choosing and prefering ESC songs in English. It's not my fault that non-English songs suck (imo).
Having personal taste doesn't make the juries/televoters biased.

The juries picking the best songs? Lol yeah.. taste differ.

As you may have noticed I didn't just talk about English, juries are mostly biased against songs which have some local/ethnic flavor, atleast viewers never were that. That is one equally important thing in this discussion I think.

If a song suck or not not for someone it's clearly not for a second or third part to decide, it is and always will be a personal opinion. If I think a song suck that would even end up with 99% of the votes, I would still think it suck anyways.

 

[A-lister]

2004-2009 ... that's 6 years
as I've said it's extremely unfair comparing 3 years to 6... wait for another 3 years and then compare and make fair conclusions.

Then we see different patterns. Ethnic entry shouldn't be favored if it sucks

3/6 is 50%... but yeah let's wait another 3 years.

If it sucks or not that's personal opinion. I don't think bad songs should be favored generally, the juries especially are very good at doing that anyways.

What I mean that a bias against songs because of language used or style is just sad though.

 

[AlekS]

I have respect for people, not a small group of 5 so called "experts".

Anyways I have my own opinions and I stick to them. I won't change my opinion just because someone else thinks else-wise or even if the majority thinks else-wise. To have your own opinion and idea is not the same as disrespecting someone elses. I actually find it sad if people let their opinions be controlled by what a majority thinks.

Yes, I think it's sad for the contest that we are soon not getting any native languages (other than offcourse English) represented and the songs are starting to sound alike. Yes I think it's sad that juries somehow don't appreciate songs which have a local touch to them.

You think the viewers and juries think the same? I beg to differ. And then again, with entries getting more and more alike, clearly it will lead to juries and voters voting for the same because there will be no diversity left for the voters to chose from, but I don't think that indicates anything.

If you don't have respect to 5 (more than 200, to be more exact) or even 1 person then you don't have respect at all and you deserve to be treated in the same way.

I never said that the juries and televoters think the same.
And voting patterns aren't equal, I think it's obvious. The televoters still have the priority and nothing prevents them from choosing the ethnic entries in their NFs. Nothing prevents them from voting @ESC.
Blame televoters.

 

[AlekS]

The juries picking the best songs? Lol yeah.. taste differ.

As you may have noticed I didn't just talk about English, juries are mostly biased against songs which have some local/ethnic flavor, atleast viewers never were that. That is one equally important thing in this discussion I think.

If a song suck or not not for someone it's clearly not for a second or third part to decide, it is and always will be a personal opinion. If I think a song suck that would even end up with 99% of the votes, I would still think it suck anyways.

Yep, tastes differ - imagine that!

Yep, I noticed that you constantly badmout teh juries for something they don't even do.

And your opinion is certainly not worse than somebody elses' so why discriminating the juries? They also have opinions. Songs suck, not opinions

 

[A-lister]

If you don't have respect to 5 (more than 200, to be more exact) or even 1 person then you don't have respect at all and you deserve to be treated in the same way.

I never said that the juries and televoters think the same.
And voting patterns aren't equal, I think it's obvious. The televoters still have the priority and nothing prevents them from choosing the ethnic entries in their NFs. Nothing prevents them from voting @ESC.
Blame televoters.

You didn't get my point. I mean I respect people (generally until they've proven not to be respected). I mean in this context I don't respect the decision of a small group of so called "experts", that doesn't say me anything.

I have more respect of the decision made by millions (naturally).

I can blame televoters for some (diaspora voting for instance) but I see what the juries are doing, and that's not the televoters fault, they're just left with whatever it's left to chose from. I think the fault lies mostly at the broadcasters that just cares too much about finding entries catering to the juries' taste.

 

[A-lister]

Yep, tastes differ - imagine that!

Yep, I noticed that you constantly badmout teh juries for something they don't even do.

And your opinion is certainly not worse than somebody elses' so why discriminating the juries? They also have opinions. Songs suck, not opinions

Discriminating the juries? Omg lol no comment.

They are the so called "experts", and yes I don't agree with them and it's my right to say so. I'm a fan of this contest and indirectly we (the viewers) are paying bits of it via our own broadcasters and taxes (atleast here in Sweden we do) so if I'm not happy with what they're doing and the direction of the contest, I will speak my mind.

Compare it with being dissatisfied with politicians, it's a democratic right to have your own opinion about their job right?

 

[AlekS]

If it sucks or not that's personal opinion. I don't think bad songs should be favored generally, the juries especially are very good at doing that anyways.

What I mean that a bias against songs because of language used or style is just sad though.

Actually I think that televoters and the juries pick "bad" songs equally.

Yep such bias is sad... but I don't think that the juries are biased in such way. Certainly not more than the televoters.

 

[A-lister]

Actually I think that televoters and the juries pick "bad" songs equally.

Yep such bias is sad... but I don't think that the juries are biased in such way. Certainly not more than the televoters.

Yes. the televoters chose bad songs aswell, but imo juries are doing a better job at picking bad ones.

Atleast we agree that such bias is sad. Well we just have to disagree on that one. I just hope in 2012 I will be proved wrong though...

 

[AlekS]

Discriminating the juries? Omg lol no comment.

They are the so called "experts", and yes I don't agree with them and it's my right to say so. I'm a fan of this contest and indirectly we (the viewers) are paying bits of it via our own broadcasters and taxes (atleast here in Sweden we do) so if I'm not happy with what they're doing and the direction of the contest, I will speak my mind.

Compare it with being dissatisfied with politicians, it's a democratic right to have your own opinion about their job right?

Next time please find some words for a comment. Thanks.

There's a difference between disagreeing with them and urging to get rid of them.
Also no need in speaking about taxes, they (the jurors) aren't paid actually.
It's not about Swedish broadcaster - it's about more than 50 countries-EBU members. So if you're dissatisfied with something - complain to them. Oh, I forgot... they don't broadcast in your country

 

[AlekS]

Yes. the televoters chose bad songs aswell, but imo juries are doing a better job at picking bad ones.

And I think that the juries are being blackmouthed for a "crime" they didn't commit.

 

[A-lister]

Next time please find some words for a comment. Thanks.

There's a difference between disagreeing with them and urging to get rid of them.
Also no need in speaking about taxes, they aren't paid actually.
It's not about Swedish broadcaster - it's about more than 50 countries-EBU members. So if you're dissatisfied with something - complain to EBU. Oh, I forgot... they don't broadcast in your country

Huh?

As a matter of fact I already DID complain to the EBU.

I don't mean the juries are being paid (or atleast I don't think so), but they are still part of the show so and I'm just not very happy with how that part is playing its role in it so to speak. I don't think there's anything wrong to speak up and as a matter of fact I don't even know why we're even discussing if it's wrong or not to criticize the juries?, it's not very constructive.

I gave my ideas and if people don't agree then it's up to them, won't change my opinion though, but I still like to discuss and see no harm in it.

 

[A-lister]

And I think that the juries are being blackmouthed for a "crime" they didn't commit.

Maybe because they cater to your taste perhaps? I don't know. We're all different it's just personal opinions in the end of the day, it's what a discussion board is meant for.

There's always going to be someone who is dissatisfied, this time it's me, next time it might be you.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

@ MyHeartIsYours

I see your point and in some ways we do agree, and in others we either disagree or maybe misunderstand each-other somewhat?

Well we come from the same point of view in that we both like native culture and think that it should be highly valued. But the difference is that I dont think that coming up with an official rule or voting factor is the way forward, because it does remove choice somewhat and also it can risk underrating a brilliant English song and overrating a poor Native song.

I think in any way some people will not be satisfied. As for the juries I don't think it's "unfair" if they encourage songs in native language, because aren't the juries put here to be some sort of "professionals"? To actually think about some stuff some of us might not do? Atleast they have the power to lead this contest in one direction or another and I think they are leading it way wrong now. With encouraging I don't mean they should vote for bad entries in native languages in favor of good entries in English. I think juries should consider many things, and not just the languages used offcourse, that's just part of it.

They are there as professionals, but being professional doesnt mean that a particular language should be preferred. In my mind, I think that the Juries would have a natural preference for native language songs anyway, and I think they do (Italy this year being an example again, versus the UK and Russia for instance). They'd also really fall for songs like Bosnia and Herzegovina 2006 and Serbia 2007 which I personally find a real turn off. I think that Juries happen to prefer a certain style of song, like you've mentioned, and a lot of them happen to be in English, but a lot of them also arent in English. They also apparently really loved Germany in 2007 which was all in German apart from the last chorus.

The fact you point out with English having an advantage in the past aswell just proves my point about juries actually being biased in favor of English. So is this good? I don't think so.

I didnt watch the contest before Televoting but from what I've seen from the results and what my Dad has said, English language songs have always had a slight advantage, regardless of whether Juryvoting, Televoting or 50/50 was used. But the slight advantage cannot make a country win, and a native language song can just as easy win of course.

Well the so called "Disney ballads" can clearly be seen as some American relic that somehow has stuck in Eurovision. In generally the viewers are not too fond of them (I'm speaking generally here), they are clearly not representing anything "European" or anything contemporary by that part either. Somehow now with the juries they are coming back quite strong though. I guess this is showing what some (and even I) call "American Idol-ization" (shortly: "Americanization") of the contest.

People say about these disney ballads but to me they are not disney and they're not American. People said it about 'It's My Time', but I was so proud of that entry and I felt it was fully British, which of course it was, written by our most famous composer! Whether you consider a song to be disney ballads or Americanised is very much based on your opinion, there's no way that you can prove it either way. 'Is It True?' also had similar accusations levelled against it, but to me that was a perfect song and sounded very much like it was from a Nordic country. It just all depends on people's views.

 

[AlekS]

Huh?

As a matter of fact I already DID complain to the EBU.

Huh?
I must disappoint you.

Eurovision is not funded by our national budget. So you complain at what? That people who pay actually have their own right to vote?

Your broadcaster receives an income from televoting, these money are going round in circles so you don't really lose them and they stay in your country. You don't really lose anything.
As for paying for voting... you can choose do not vote.

 

[AlekS]

Maybe because they cater to your taste perhaps? I don't know. We're all different it's just personal opinions in the end of the day, it's what a discussion board is meant for.

There's always going to be someone who is dissatisfied, this time it's me, next time it might be you.

In other words maybe I'm biased? I "love" you too.
I voted for 2 songs which were supported by the juries and televoters.

Yep, that's what a discussion board is meant for and I'm stating my personal opinion.

 

[A-lister]

@ MyHeartIsYours

I won't answer to all, because it's late and in a way we agree, but I will say some.

If juries aren't to look for certain things, then I don't think there's a point in having juries in the first place. From my perspective and in my opinion what they do now is the opposite to what you just said; they favor BAD songs in English/"American" style over better songs in other style or language.

I never ever said they should vote for bad songs in native languages or not vote for good songs in English, then you misunderstood me.

As for the historical aspect; It's a fact that English was always favored and also ballads were always favored. The other languages were often disfavored and ethnic tunes or more "alternative" entries were disfavored aswell, and back then it was 100% jury, and that's what I meant about that it feels like the same old patterns are brought back to life now and I don't think it's a good thing at all.

 

[A-lister]

In other words maybe I'm biased? I "love" you too.
I voted for 2 songs which were supported by the juries and televoters.

Yep, that's what a discussion board is meant for and I'm stating my personal opinion.

I don't know your taste, it was just a question. I guess if you're happy with the juries voting obviously you do agree with them in one way or another atleast. It doesn't mean that you're biased, because unlike the juries, I don't think voters at home have an agenda, so that's just your taste then and I respect that.

 

[A-lister]

Huh?
I must disappoint you.

Eurovision is not funded by our national budget. So you complain at what? That people who pay actually have their own right to vote?

Your broadcaster receives an income from televoting, these money are going round in circles so you don't really lose them and they stay in your country. You don't really lose anything.
As for paying for voting... you can choose do not vote.

All broadcasters pay their part, our broadcaster gets their money from our citizens, so even if just one dollar out of that is used to pay the fee to EBU, it's still indirectly paid partly by the viewers.

Anyways that's not really interesting, I think one can have opinion about this just as a fan even if he/she doesn't contribute to it.

 

[AlekS]

As for the historical aspect, It's a fact that English was always favored and also ballads was always favored. The other languages were often disfavored and ethnic tunes were disfavored aswell, and back then it was 100% jury, and that's what I meant that it feels like the same old patterns are brought back to life now and I don't think it's a good thing at all.

Waterloo wasn't a ballad... Ding-a-dong wasn't a ballad, Celine didn't perform a ballad, Charlotte Perelli, Carola, Ofra Haza... I don't see that something "comes back". We've had a plenty of uptempo songs in the past.