Bringing back the language rule!

[AlekS]

^ I think we can say that about any genre/song/language/style etc - "we've already heard that before". There are 7 notes.
You can hear songs like the Azeri winner everywhere. They are overplayed on the radio/TV in the I-net and they are chosen by people, not by the jury only.
On the other hand we have a folky Bosnian entry, performed by ex-Yu legend... there's nothing that can be more representative than that


I don't think that the juries prefer one kind of songs as their choice is similar to televoters choice.

Look at 2008. Televoting only. Look at the top-3: non-English popular songs of the same genre... "mainstream" pop songs. At some point they are similar to the Azeri winner.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Could I just add in a point here about Juries; in 2011, the Televoting winner was Azerbaijan (English) but the Jury winner was Italy (mostly Italian). I think that the Televoters have more taste towards English than the Juries but that's just my feeling.

 

[A-lister]

Could I just add in a point here about Juries; in 2011, the Televoting winner was Azerbaijan (English) but the Jury winner was Italy (mostly Italian). I think that the Televoters have more taste towards English than the Juries but that's just my feeling.

When I talk about juries' voting patterns vs. televoting patterns I look at the whole picture and not just the winners.

Also Italy is a great example of the juries being out of touch of reality imo .. but that's another thing.

 

[A-lister]

^ I think we can say that about any genre/song/language/style etc - "we've already heard that before". There are 7 notes.
You can hear songs like the Azeri winner everywhere. They are overplayed on the radio/TV in the I-net and they are chosen by people, not by the jury only.
On the other hand we have a folky Bosnian entry, performed by ex-Yu legend... there's nothing that can be more representative than that

Prior the juries comeback we had more of the latter though and I don't think it's a coincidence... just saying.

 

[Nikoreindeer1973]

All we need is Ricki Lake, Robin Williams or David Lettermann to host ESC 2012.

LOL

 

[CC92]

OMG..

I also do not want ESC turning to a cheap American idol concept. They can make their own shows and they do it already en mass (even flooding European tv channels). Of course I have nothing against U.S. American music styles in general, in fact I do listen to a lot of (imho) talented artists from there at home and on my mobile phone. But in a concept that is called EUROvision please keep your colonial ruling hands off just once in a year to let us celebrate OUR cultures, our diversity and our music.
Now the televoters are forced to vote for the same because there remains nothing else left to choose from. In addition many viewers (like me) do not bother to waste their money any longer in order to support such a concept. Until today I do not know how my country has voted in 2010 and 2011.
I personally way prefer Madness of love to both, Popular and Running Scared, still it is not European at all though. A huge proportion of the votes it received was scheduled for a Big5 country's comeback and not to guerdon the use of Italian language – one should keep that in mind.

 

[A-lister]

^
You tell 'em how it is !!

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Have you forgotten where this language belongs to? The United Kingdom. I know we're unpopular in the EU now but are we not even classified as European now?! English is not the American language, it is the British language and America uses it because of history. Because something is used by Americans does not mean it is American thank you very much . And like Aleks says, so what? What's wrong if we have multiculturalism in Eurovision? Why, even if you consider English to be American, does that mean it's bad? There is a blending of culture worldwide because we can live isolated anymore, and the output of Eurovision is a mix of the world, mostly European music and culture still though, incidentally.

 

[A-lister]

Have you forgotten where this language belongs to? The United Kingdom. I know we're unpopular in the EU now but are we not even classified as European now?! English is not the American language, it is the British language and America uses it because of history. Because something is used by Americans does not mean it is American thank you very much . And like Aleks says, so what? What's wrong if we have multiculturalism in Eurovision? Why, even if you consider English to be American, does that mean it's bad? There is a blending of culture worldwide because we can live isolated anymore, and the output of Eurovision is a mix of the world, mostly European music and culture still though, incidentally.

If multiculturalism is so important, why can't we start by appreciating the diversity that Europe has to offer? If one can't even appreciate that in a contest where it was atleast the original idea, then how can one appreciate even more? :?

Again different cultures does not equal a blended Anglo-unity. To me that sounds more like one culture rather than many.

Anyways, I don't think he meant English in that way, rather than English as in the context where Eurovision is "Americanized" if we can call it that.

I think most people know that English originates from England and that is wide-spread. But why is it so hard to understand what we're trying to say here?

I don't understand how it can be interpreted as if we would "hate English" or being "anti" something, then clearly you haven't got the point. No one is hating on anything in here.

You said yourself you prefer the songs in English only, how is that to be "open to different cultures"? But no one is saying you hate though, but if we just say that we want more languages in the contest then out of a sudden we are "anti-English". That's just illogical.

 

[AlekS]

But in a concept that is called EUROvision please keep your colonial ruling hands off just once in a year to let us celebrate OUR cultures, our diversity and our music.

Please keep such tone for another place and watch your mouth just for once. Thanks.

ps. oh, one more thing. ESC is not a cure from your or somebody elses' problems. Your culture won't die if Eurovision won't fit into your mind borders. However it will die if Germans won't pay attention to it so puuulease blame Germans instead of someone else

 

[AlekS]

then clearly you haven't got the point. No one is hating on anything in here.

"Of course" he didn't get you... or should I remind you your own signature with "ANGLOVISION or EUROVISION, get rid of the juries blah blah blah" in it?

Yep, if you want more songs in different languages than it is in 2011 then you are anti-English.

 

[A-lister]

"Of course" he didn't get you... or should I remind you your own signature with "ANGLOVISION or EUROVISION, get rid of the juries blah blah blah" in it?

Yep, if you want more songs in different languages than it is in 2011 then you are anti-English.

Wanting more songs in native languages is the same as being anti some language? That's just silly.

If I hated English why am I sitting here writing in it? Then wanting only English/-or favor English in the contest would clearly be the same as hating on every other language according to that logic?, that's just silly. There's nothing "anti-English" about wanting to hear more languages in Eurovision.

Then the original rules were "anti-English" aswell, and I doubt that was ever the intention.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

@A-lister
I do appreciate what Europe has to offer which is why I keep making the point that it is broadcasters own choices what songs they send; if people consider them to be 'American' then that's a matter of opinion isnt it. To me, I cant think of a single song this year for example which reminded me of American Idol or the American charts, it just sounded like good, old Eurovision to me!

But again if the different countries choose a certain culture to represent them, then that is their choice. It doesnt matter if they are American, British, Turkish, Russian, etc styled, if a country sends an entry then it must be presumed that it represents them, to a certain extent at least. I take the example of 'Touch My Fire', you could claim that that was Turkish culture or Eastern style, but I consider it to be British, because it represents part of the community of the UK and it also represents to style of music that people here warm to, which is why it won our NF.

But it's an opinion that Eurovision is Americanised... it is my opinion that it is not. The United States doesnt even take part so I really dont see how anyone can see it as such a problem. The contest is conducted in English and French so that isnt Anglo-centric either.

I do understand your point mate and I respect it. But that doesnt mean that I agree with you in all respects. I have said how I want the voting to change; I want the Televoting and Juryvoting to be counted totally separately, but to add in some voting factor for the Juries based on language would be wrong. Even if you dont directly prevent countries singing in English, it would affect the way they would like to perform and then it is also unfair; would the factor be scrapped when it comes to the UK, Ireland and Malta? (which would lead to inconsistent voting) or would it just be for non-native languages in general (in which case, us 3 countries would have an advantage again, because we can claim to sing in our native languages as English). I dont see how it could work and even if it did, how it could be fair.

I dont think you hate anyone, you feel strongly for native languages and I think that's a plus point. But I think that anything to do with languages in ESC is just best being left alone.

 

[A-lister]

@ MyHeartIsYours

I see your point and in some ways we do agree, and in others we either disagree or maybe misunderstand each-other somewhat?

I think in any way some people will not be satisfied. As for the juries I don't think it's "unfair" if they encourage songs in native language, because aren't the juries put here to be some sort of "professionals"? To actually think about some stuff some of us might not do? Atleast they have the power to lead this contest in one direction or another and I think they are leading it way wrong now. With encouraging I don't mean they should vote for bad entries in native languages in favor of good entries in English. I think juries should consider many things, and not just the languages used offcourse, that's just part of it.

The fact you point out with English having an advantage in the past aswell just proves my point about juries actually being biased in favor of English. So is this good? I don't think so.

I totally agree with you about splitting the jury/televote though, but that doesn't do anything about the issue discussed here though.

Well the so called "Disney ballads" can clearly be seen as some American relic that somehow has stuck in Eurovision. In generally the viewers are not too fond of them (I'm speaking generally here), they are clearly not representing anything "European" or anything contemporary by that part either. Somehow now with the juries they are coming back quite strong though. I guess this is showing what some (and even I) call "American Idol-ization" (shortly: "Americanization") of the contest.

 

[AlekS]

Wanting more songs in native languages is the same as being anti some language? That's just silly.

If I hated English why am I sitting here writing in it? Then wanting only English/-or favor English in the contest would clearly be the same as hating on every other language according to that logic?, that's just silly. There's nothing "anti-English" about wanting to hear more languages in Eurovision.

Then the original rules were "anti-English" aswell, and I doubt that was ever the intention.

What I call silly is trying to get away from your own words. Nobody says about you typing in English which means that your logic makes no sense.
You don't just want to hear more languages, you mean that so called "Anglovision" is something bad and something that should be changed.
The purpose of ESC is to have some respect to people's choice If people chose such songs let it be so.

 

[AlekS]

I look at the whole picture and not just the winners.

No prob, look at the whole pattern. And don't stick just to differences between televoters and the juries - there aren't so many.

 

[AlekS]

Prior the juries comeback we had more of the latter though and I don't think it's a coincidence... just saying.

We had more of the latter? Comparing 3 years with the juries to prior-juries period is extremely unfair. And btw, I don't think we had more of the latter... just saying

 

[A-lister]

What I call silly is trying to get away from your own words. Nobody says about you typing in English which means that your logic makes no sense.
You don't just want to hear more languages, you mean that so called "Anglovision" is something bad and something that should be changed.
The purpose of ESC is to have some respect to people's choice If people chose such songs let it be so.

I have respect for people, not a small group of 5 so called "experts".

Anyways I have my own opinions and I stick to them. I won't change my opinion just because someone else thinks else-wise or even if the majority thinks else-wise. To have your own opinion and idea is not the same as disrespecting someone elses. I actually find it sad if people let their opinions be controlled by what a majority thinks.

Yes, I think it's sad for the contest that we are soon not getting any native languages (other than offcourse English) represented and the songs are starting to sound alike. Yes I think it's sad that juries somehow don't appreciate songs which have a local touch to them.

You think the viewers and juries think the same? I beg to differ. And then again, with entries getting more and more alike, clearly it will lead to juries and voters voting for the same because there will be no diversity left for the voters to chose from, but I don't think that indicates anything.

 

[A-lister]

We had more of the latter? Comparing 3 years with the juries to prior-juries period is extremely unfair. And btw, I don't think we had more of the latter... just saying

Well we had more of the latter for sure. I can just think about a couple of songs that represented that in each of the past 2 years, while between 2004-2009 there were quite a healthy bunch of those.

Eurovision growing gave alot of new flavor, but unfortunately I see the same patterns repeated with the juries as it was back in the days; English favored, ethnic disfavored.

Greece, Turkey and ex Yugoslavia were countries which often send entries with a local touch even back in the days, the juries more or less always overlooked them. But with the juries these countries could even win with similar genre.

Now with the juries back it's history repeating itself and countries are catering their songs more and more to what they assume juries will like.

 

[AlekS]

I think juries should consider many things, and not just the languages used offcourse, that's just part of it.

The fact you point out with English having an advantage in the past aswell just proves my point about juries actually being biased in favor of English. So is this good? I don't think so.

If the jury's quest is to pick the best songs then why do you care about languges so much?

English had advantage with televoters only so it doesn't prove anything. In fact you have nothing to prove.
Blame televoters and me as well for choosing and prefering ESC songs in English. It's not my fault that non-English songs suck (imo).
Having personal taste doesn't make the juries/televoters biased.