Contact us

TURKEY 2013 - not taking part

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
You're taking what I'm saying out of context when it come to the juries. We'll just have have to agree to disagree on this.

Not really, but maybe I just don't understand you correctly then? What do you mean about the juries then?
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
Wow, lots of speculations and most of them are not correct. As you can see, no Turkish has much interest even in that discussion. ESC lost a big population of fans because of this withdrawal. Nobody talks about ESC in Turkey; news, TVs or anything. I don't know who made up this "Turkey decided to participate back". Everybody speculates TRT's epxlanation but I think it was clear enough.

In official explanation; TRT said they're protesting the contest this year because of big five rule. They directly dont complain jury system, they complain that 50% jury system came back with the demand of big five. So the reason they complain, Big Five has a big control on EBU, they can change the rules whenever they want, which is not fair. I think there's nothing wrong with TRT's reasons. These reasons are valid for any other countries other than Big Five.

Also with this kind of biased approaches,

Well, TRT already explained the 'reasons' and it was all very blatant to me xshrug

Firstly, the juries didn't have that much impact when it came to Turkey's result imo, so you're ok with blind nationalist diaspora impacting the results then? How is that fair? Why is TRT even complaining in the first place? WITH 50% juries system, they still ended up top. 5 with a messy out of breath performance (2009), top. 3 in 2010, and top. 10 in 2012... what's there really to whine about?

turkey shouldn't participate in next years too. Especially it's weird when Scandinavians complain about diaspora thing, while they're getting lots of neighbour votes. Turkey gets high points from 3-4 countries because of that diaspora issue mentioned. Lots of countries gets this kind of guaranteed votes from its neighbours. Turkey doesn't have any neighbour vote except Azerbaijan.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
turkey shouldn't participate in next years too. Especially it's weird when Scandinavians complain about diaspora thing, while they're getting lots of neighbour votes. Turkey gets high points from 3-4 countries because of that diaspora issue mentioned. Lots of countries gets this kind of guaranteed votes from its neighbours. Turkey doesn't have any neighbour vote except Azerbaijan.

See this is the thing, I'm no fan of neither bloc voting or diaspora voting, yet you somehow make up excuses by turning against other countries?

There's no need in fooling ourselves here, Turkey is one of the largest diaspora benefiter of all ESC countries, you can't compare that to the 'Scandinavian bloc vote' and let's be honest here, the Turkey - Azeri 100% annual 12pts exchange is not the same as the Scandinavian vote. There IS a Scandinavian bloc voting going on, but it's really not on the same level of biasism.. and really two wrongs doesn't make one right... self-criticism is a strength you know?, I totally admit the Scandinavian bloc voting and have no need to make up excuses for it by turning against others, but we're discussing Turkey in this thread right so I don't really see where Scandinavia fit in all this?

And yeah, there are other countries that benefits from biased diaspora voting just like Turkey does for sure like Russia, Greece, Armenia, Serbia, Bosnia, Ukraine... but I see none of them complaining about the current system that brings them less diaspora votes? And again, so others' 'wrong-doings' excuses the Turkish case? Why can't we be honest here and just confess that all biased voting is hurting the contest? There's no need in shooting the messager.
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
See this is the thing, I'm no fan of neither bloc voting or diaspora voting, yet you somehow make up excuses by turning against other countries?

I'm not making the excuses. I think bringing this issue as the correlation of Turkey's success is ridiculous, I want to show this. Turkey has diaspora votes from 3-4 countries (not just germany, besides Germany is not 12pts for Turkey most of times) and a neighbour country vote Azerbaijan. Bloc voting Scandinavia has already 5 countries. Old Soviet Union countries have at least 9 countries voting to each other. Balkans countries are again at least 8-9 countries voting to each other. At least 20-30 countries are having this kind of benefits. So while diaspora, bloc-voting and neighbour voting is this common, naming Turkey's success in last years as diaspora voting is superfical and a hostile manner.

There's no need in fooling ourselves here, Turkey is one of the largest diaspora benefiter of all ESC countries

You have to prove this? Your biases don't show anything. You can create a correlation map by taking average votes of all countries from other countries in last 10 years. For instance, if Turkey's average vote coming from Germany is above than 9 that means there's a correlation either by diaspora, bloc voting or neighbour voting. You can see this way each country has how much blind supporter countries. If you don't do this, please dont come with make-up ideas. If I had time, I would do this and show some scientific results to all of you.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
^
Turkey do get quite some heavy diaspora voting help from atleast the following:

Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, UK, Georgia, Bulgaria, Macedonia.

The whole issue with the diaspora voting is that it's biased and directed. While native Germans spread their votes around, the Turkish diaspora just vote for Turkey and direct all their votes for one entry only. Of course it's not just Turkish diaspora, but since we're on the subject of Turkey and the whole drama with TRT that's why I discussed it.

As for the ex-USSR bloc it's mostly Russian, Ukrainian, Armenian, Azeri and Georgian diaspora impacting. People often get fooled that for instance Estonians or Latvians heavily support Russia, while in fact it's Russians living in those countries voting. I mean if people really think Estonia or Latvia are 'friends' of Russia then they have little knowledge...

Actually you're right about one thing though, the Scandinavian bloc is more a 'real' type of 'friendly bloc' because the voting has little to do with diaspora like in the ex-USSR case. The only exception is Finland with its Finno-Swedes that can be compared to the Russians living in the ex-USSR countries or Serbs living in Bosnia (Republika Srbska) for instance.

Look, I'm not making up this to be a smartass or anything, I'm just saying that TRT's complained are uncalled for that's all. I mean if the results would have hurt alot with juries on-board I'd might get TRT's complaints to some point, but the results are still good!
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
^
Turkey do get quite some heavy diaspora voting help from atleast the following:

Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Austria, UK, Georgia, Bulgaria, Macedonia.

You're still talking with your own biases and assumptions. Any figures??

Okay especially Love me back 2012, and Rimi rimi ley 2005 are considered ranked the way above than expected. The votes of these countries you mentioned for Turkey at these years:

ESC 2012
8 - Germany
8 - Netherlands
7 - Belgium
7 - Georgia
7 - Bulgaria
5 - France
3 - Austria
3 - Switzerland
1 - UK

ESC 2005
12 - Netherlands
12 - France
10 - Belgium
10 - Germany
10 - Macedonia
7 - Austria
6 - Switzerland
3 - Bulgaria
0 - UK

If you consider these two lists: Germany, Netherlands and Belgium are common high voters.

I'm following ESC results for years. Here the countries are giving high points to Turkey anyway.
Diaspora: Germany, Netherlands, Belgium
Friend votes: Macedonia, Bosnia & Herzegova
Neighbour votes: Azerbaijan
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
Yes you're right, sorry, I re-checked it UK gave 1 point not 0. But this doesn't change my point.

I think your point is denial mate... but there's no point in debating this. Everyone except for Turks admits the fact the diaspora voting impact, and the 2012 numbers are with 50% juries impact... yet you still ended up in the top. 10 thanks to televoting impact alone.
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
I think your point is denial mate... but there's no point in debating this. Everyone except for Turks admits the fact the diaspora voting impact, and the 2012 numbers are with 50% juries impact... yet you still ended up in the top. 10 thanks to televoting impact alone.

You are being even more non-sense by generalizing everything. Generalizing as if all turks have the same idea or all others think like you, not a nice way of attitude. Diaspora itself doesn't make any song winner or top 10. It may have a little push but since lost of countries have these kind of pushes, it does not create so much difference.

Turkey (112pt) and Germany(110pt) had very similar points last year. Turkey got points from 21 different countries and Germany too. No difference. You still mention that Turkey got this position with diaspora votes. For God's sake, you don't like a song doesn't mean this song has an unfair position.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
You are being even more non-sense by generalizing everything. Generalizing as if all turks have the same idea or all others think like you, not a nice way of attitude. Diaspora itself doesn't make any song winner or top 10. It may have a little push but since lost of countries have these kind of pushes, it does not create so much difference.

Turkey (112pt) and Germany(110pt) had very similar points last year. Turkey got points from 21 different countries and Germany too. No difference. You still mention that Turkey got this position with diaspora votes. For God's sake, you don't like a song doesn't mean this song has an unfair position.

This discussion is sorta pointless because you'll keep on denying what most people already know.

I never said Turkey is the only country that benefits from diaspora votes, but I don't see a point in denying this though? Surely some vote for Turkish entries because they like them, and surely there are Turks who vote for songs they like regardless of the country... but it's pointless to deny the impact of diaspora voting when it has been pretty blatant throughout the 00's up until now xshrug

Anyways, TRT are acting foolish and I feel sorry for the Turkish ESC fans. Hopefully you'll be back next year.
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
This discussion is sorta pointless because you'll keep on denying what most people already know.

Yes, right you can't answer the figures and repeat cliche words. I'm a computer scientist and some of my years has been just on the research of the correlation of the figures with the cliches. I can clearly observe diaspora votes does not create a strong correlation with the success. For me, it is not important what everybody speaks but figures, facts, statistics.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
Yes, right you can't answer the figures and repeat cliche words. I'm a computer scientist and some of my years has been just on the research of the correlation of the figures with the cliches. I can clearly observe diaspora votes does not create a strong correlation with the success. For me, it is not important what everybody speaks but figures, facts, statistics.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence. It biases the judgment."

as I said : denial

But if it makes you feel better then we can pretend that all Germans and Dutch LOVES Turkish entries so much every year... or maybe we can accept what partly lies behind those high pointers xshrug
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
as I said : denial

But if it makes you feel better then we can pretend that all Germans and Dutch LOVES Turkish entries so much every year... or maybe we can accept what partly lies behind those high pointers xshrug

The first thing I explained you is Turkey gets high diaspora votes from Germany, Belgium and Netherlands. But your only way is objection I guess and so you cannot see my points.

And a friendly advice for you: "we" language is a loser language. If you want to seem confident, say "I think" instead "most of people think", "we think". You are neither most of people nor we.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
The first thing I explained you is Turkey gets high diaspora votes from Germany, Belgium and Netherlands. But your only way is objection I guess and so you cannot see my points.

And a friendly advice for you: "we" language is a loser language. If you want to seem confident, say "I think" instead "most of people think", "we think". You are neither most of people nor we.

Ok let's pretend it's just those countries...

As for subjective opinions one can not use 'we', but if it's common knowledge it's not wrong ;)

Anyways it's useless to have this argumentation with someone who is 100% biased and unwilling to acknowledge anything.
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
Ok let's pretend it's just those countries...

As for subjective opinions one can not use 'we', but if it's common knowledge it's not wrong ;)

Anyways it's useless to have this argumentation with someone who is 100% biased and unwilling to acknowledge anything.

The way of introducing common knowledge is giving valid references. Not "we" language. I provided my arguments with figures not "we" language.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
The way of introducing common knowledge is giving valid references. Not "we" language. I provided my arguments with figures not "we" language.

What figures? The only figures you showed were sort of proving my point anyways... the rest were just your opinions.

Anyways, it's getting tired. You'll never admit the diaspora impact anyways so let's just agree to disagree then and let others believe what they want.

Still though, I'm sorry for the Turkish fans for having TRT acting like this.
 

A-lister

Veteran
Joined
December 28, 2009
Posts
32,825
Okay, sorry: "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

Wouldn't call it ignorance, I totally get that you want to "defend" your country... but my critic wasn't really against :tr: to begin with... oh well xshrug
 

wayneofway

Member
Joined
March 6, 2012
Posts
304
Oh dear, your understanding of irony is weak.

I don't have any mission like to defend Turkey. Just I dont like hearsay generalizations and exaggerations as you did. Nevermind. If it was about Denmark, I could defend it the same way. And I think Denmark and all other countries shouldn't have different status than big five. The idea of introducing Turkey as a sixth big is a more stupid thing than big five rule. No big rule thing, and I think all expenses of ESC has to be equally shared by the countries.
 
Top Bottom