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Sweden SWEDEN 2018 - Benjamin Ingrosso - Dance You Off

How do you rate this entry?

  • 12

    44 16.8%
  • 10

    12 4.6%
  • 8

    27 10.3%
  • 7

    21 8.0%
  • 6

    15 5.7%
  • 5

    23 8.8%
  • 4

    22 8.4%
  • 3

    20 7.6%
  • 2

    14 5.3%
  • 1

    7 2.7%
  • 0

    57 21.8%

  • Total voters
    262

Stargazer

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Hipster much? And what exactly would song substance be? Lyrics about love, on-stage chorus and dramatic buildups? This my friend is mainstream radio music. Seems like too many of you are expecting ESC entries to be something you hear once and go "wow, powerful" then never listen to again. What is the word I'm looking for? ....Schlager? Yeah, that genre is dead. The kid put his soul into crafting that song, he did the producing and writing himself and wants to connect multiple singles into some kind of storyline. It's supposed to be a simple song, it's straightforward, not lacking. The horrible slick production you're talking about is there because it fits the song if you didn't figure that one out already and Zain Odelstål did a fantastic job at doing so. Dance You Off is comparable with Justin Timberlake's "Rock Your Body" which won several awards claiming top 5 spots in both UK and US billboard top 100. Ingrosso is not Timberlake, but judging from the juries and televote you seem to be in minority with that opinion as others clearly saw that substance you can not.

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong... but ya know
Hipster? Not really. I don't dislike mainstream music because it's mainstream, I just don't seem to like whatever has been mainstream for the past 15 years or so. For me music is all about the melody and the note/chord progression. I don't care how slick or professional the production is, how polished the beat is, how genius the lyrics are or how much time and dedication has been devoted to it; if the melody sucks it's a bad song (to me). Dance You Off's melody is extremely repetitive and dull. Like several other songs in this year's MF, it also lacked a proper chorus. It's funny that you should mention "Rock Your Body" by the way, when that is easily one of the worst and most annoying songs that's come out of mainstream music. A song winning tons of awards or topping charts all over the world tells me nothing of how good the song is. It only tells me that it's what the record companies and the radio stations have been pushing for you to listen to and millions of people swallowed it because it's all they ever hear. You sound a little bit like a member we had on the forum some years ago who argued that Euphoria was objectively the best Eurovision song because it had achieved the most international success and had the most plays on YouTube.

This is the Eurovision Song Contest, not Eurovision Radio Hits Contest, Eurovision Artist Contest or Eurovision Show Contest. It's never been about following the latest mainstream fads and trends. Look at what won last year; a timeless jazzy orchestrated piece that was the exact opposite of mainstream. I wasn't even a big fan of Portugal last year, but I could definitely appreciate the fact that it was such a genuine song and performance. I honestly don't care if I'm in the minority. Story of my life anyway. As if the fact that thousands of people love something somehow makes it good? Millions of girls think Twilight is the best thing since sliced bread... still doesn't make it good. ;)
 

ZoboCamel

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[MENTION=11243]ZoboCamel[/MENTION] stellar analysis per usual. Thank you for it. Follow-up question: what nominal ratio would they have needed for a 50/50 jury/televote split?

Based on how things have played out in the last few years? They'd need a nominal split of about 3-to-1, or 75-25, i.e. tripling all of the televote scores :lol:

This year, for example, tripling all of the televote scores would've meant left them as:

1. Benjamin 201
2. Felix 192
3. John 186
4. Mendez 186
5. S&V 180
6. Liamoo 159
7. Renaida 153
8. Rolandz 153
9. Mariette 147
10. Margaret 123
11. Martin 123
12. Jessica 111

Leaving the total combined results as:

Benjamin 315
Felix 286
John 252
S&V 234
Liamoo 211
Mariette 211
Mendez 188
Margaret 185
Renaida 183
Rolandz 177
Martin 166
Jessica 144

Here, there's a standard deviation total of 28.7 among the televotes vs. 29.2 for the jury votes, so about even (with the juries still actually being a little higher there despite the televotes being tripled). The overall results are a little more in line with what you'd expect, with the placings of most acts falling vaguely halfway between their jury and televote rankings, and each of the two groups having some things go their way and others not so much. For example, the televotes succeed in making Samir & Viktor's 4th place safer, lifting Rolandz above Martin and putting Jessica last in line with their preferences, but they still don't completely overrule the juries, who manage to push Mendez from a televoting 3rd down to an overall 7th, bring Mariette up from 9th in the televotes to 6th overall, etc.

In other metrics, this tripling would mean the televotes had 90 points between their first and last places (vs. 112 for the juries), and 42 points between 1st and 5th (vs. 52 points for the juries). Which seems about fair, considering that the televoters didn't seem to have a massive favourite in this year anyway.

The juries perhaps remain more powerful even with the tripling, since they still have the impact of influencing televotes via their own score reveals, but if scores are tripled and voters have more power to overturn jury results then they could potentially have more confidence to vote for their favourites anyway, somewhat nullifying the effect of the jury reveal. This is just about impossible to calculate, though - it's more of a psychology thing - so I'll ignore that and say that, yes, tripling the televotes would have made 2018 just about fair.

Applying the same tripling effect to 2017's results would have made things much closer, with Nano barely scraping out a win: he'd have had 247 points over Robin's 246, with Jon & Aninia on 203. This seems fair and reasonable enough - among the two rankings, Nano had a first (televote) and a second (jury), which sounds like it should take slight precedence over Robin's first (jury) and third (televote). Metrics like standard deviations (28.7 jury vs. 27.3 televote) and the first-to-last split (95 vs. 81) would have also been much fairer under the tripled system, as opposed to those televote figures being a third of that with what actually happened.

And then, for 2016, we'd have had Frans with an easy win, sitting at 292 points over Oscar's second-place 218 and Wiktoria's third-place 204. Once again, that looks about right: the juries had Frans and Oscar essentially tied (89-88), while Frans was a huge televote favourite and just about national phenomenon for that year. And the metrics check out here too, i.e. standard deviations (32.7 jury vs. 29.7 televote) and first-to-last split (88 jury vs. 120 televote).

TL;DR: SVT/Bjorkman, if you're looking for an easy way to fix this imbalance, just have televoters award three times as many points as they currently do. It's a bit of a messy, band-aid solution, but it would've given us three years in a row of a fair and representative system while keeping the app votes etc. in their current form.

Otherwise, there are lots of other, more elegant solutions available, each with their ups and downs. For example, you could:

Split the phone-televotes and app-televotes into two sections, comprising the final score of 50% juries, 25% app and 25% televotes. Spread the app votes out by converting them to another system with the same ranking (e.g. the 12-10-8-7-etc.) and you'd end with a fair score that incorporates the app vote while being equally representative of the televote and the juries.

Remove the app vote from the final entirely while keeping it in the semis, if need be. This would keep the majority of app engagement while returning votes in the finals to their state from 2015 and beforehand.

Rework the app system - rather than score every song out of five, give voters e.g. 10 free votes to award across the entire semi or final.

Limit the number of app votes to, say, one per song, rather than 5. This wouldn't entirely solve the issue, but it'd fix things about 85% of the way off the top of my head, returning the split to something like 45-55 in the favour of juries, which is at least acceptable.​

There are a bunch more solutions out there, I'm sure, but that's just what I could come up with on a whim. The entirety of this post took me, a single random fan, something like 40 minutes before having to rush off for dinner; I'd be rather amazed if SVT, with all of its resources, couldn't manage something at least on that level :lol:
 

FilipFromSweden

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I don't think the app should go away, because there is huge appeal in getting to vote free, being able to predict the result, watch how your friends have predicted and voted etc. Slighter changes should be made, like only getting 5 votes per show. You can choose to give one act all 5 or spread them or not use all votes at all.

If anyone is interested in my voting last night:

Renaida: 5
Felix Sandman: 5
Benjamin Ingrosso: 5
Rolandz: 5
 

ZoboCamel

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I don't think the app should go away, because there is huge appeal in getting to vote free, being able to predict the result, watch how your friends have predicted and voted etc. Slighter changes should be made, like only getting 5 votes per show. You can choose to give one act all 5 or spread them or not use all votes at all.

If anyone is interested in my voting last night:

Renaida: 5
Felix Sandman: 5
Benjamin Ingrosso: 5
Rolandz: 5

Yeah, I'm not against app voting as a general idea. In fact, I rather like it, and I'd be happy to see it implemented more widely in other selections and possibly even Eurovision itself... with a different implementation. My issues and complaints are just with how it's put in place right now - and your suggestion of "only getting 5 votes per show", which I and others have also proposed previously, would fix the large majority of issues. So I think we're pretty much in agreement here :)

Past that though, I'd still prefer to eliminate the app heart shown on screen. There's much less excitement in the results when you essentially know what the televotes are going to be because it's already shown you on screen, and for people who want to have the best idea of what's happening, it encourages... clicking the stop and start buttons on a stopwatch to time a beating heart. I'm not sure that's the most compelling TV experience out there. I'd also like to see televoting lines of all sorts closed before the jury votes start to get revealed, so that there's no spillover influence there.

Didn't know there was a separate section for seeing predictions and votes from individual friends - that's actually pretty cool!

But yeah, just change the app voting system from "score each individual song" to "assign votes from an overall pool" and I imagine you'd solve a large majority of problems. It's probably the simplest, neatest approach of the five I mentioned, and it's the one I'd recommend to SVT.
 

FilipFromSweden

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Yeah, I'm not against app voting as a general idea. In fact, I rather like it, and I'd be happy to see it implemented more widely in other selections and possibly even Eurovision itself... with a different implementation. My issues and complaints are just with how it's put in place right now - and your suggestion of "only getting 5 votes per show", which I and others have also proposed previously, would fix the large majority of issues. So I think we're pretty much in agreement here :)

Past that though, I'd still prefer to eliminate the app heart shown on screen. There's much less excitement in the results when you essentially know what the televotes are going to be because it's already shown you on screen, and for people who want to have the best idea of what's happening, it encourages... clicking the stop and start buttons on a stopwatch to time a beating heart. I'm not sure that's the most compelling TV experience out there. I'd also like to see televoting lines of all sorts closed before the jury votes start to get revealed, so that there's no spillover influence there.

Didn't know there was a separate section for seeing predictions and votes from individual friends - that's actually pretty cool!

But yeah, just change the app voting system from "score each individual song" to "assign votes from an overall pool" and I imagine you'd solve a large majority of problems. It's probably the simplest, neatest approach of the five I mentioned, and it's the one I'd recommend to SVT.

I agree that the heart should be removed from the TV-screen. It obviously causes a bandwagon effect, why should I vote for something that gets a slimmer chance? As for being able to vote during the juries: it has been going on since 2009 and possibly even longer, so I think it will stay until SVT gets more backlash for it.

But besides, SVT has never been more critiqued for a Melodifestivalen. Not even in 2014 which led to 2015 having several changes such as the app vote. I think we can expect big changes next year.
 

ZoboCamel

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I agree that the heart should be removed from the TV-screen. It obviously causes a bandwagon effect, why should I vote for something that gets a slimmer chance? As for being able to vote during the juries: it has been going on since 2009 and possibly even longer, so I think it will stay until SVT gets more backlash for it.

But besides, SVT has never been more critiqued for a Melodifestivalen. Not even in 2014 which led to 2015 having several changes such as the app vote. I think we can expect big changes next year.

Regarding the part I bolded: yeah, that's my most minor complaint of the ones I made. I'd rather see it changed, but if that element staying is the price for a revamped app system, then I'll still happily pay it and enjoy Melfest moving forward (assuming that, you know, the song quality is high as well).

Hoping you're right about expecting changes from SVT! I mean, surely they have to do something, given that huge decline in viewing figures across the semis. I haven't seen the viewing/voting figures for AC and the final yet, but I remember seeing that they really took a nosedive for the later semifinals, and I think that's one metric that even Bjorkman and SVT will have trouble ignoring.
 

darkap

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While Ingrosso was not my favourite in MF, and his song is still cheap, I must admit the staging is great, somewhat original for bringing you back some years later. And "Dance you off" is better than "I can't go on", so an improvement compared to 2017. Middle of the table for me, 4/5 points. A certified Top 5 in Lisbon as always.
 

Franzilein

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Have to admit, I didn’t follow Melodifestivalen this year, but this cannot possibly be the best they could have come up with? Bah, (In)gross(o). This is actually the type of pop that I really despise, got some weird Justin Bieber vibes :? Cannot give it more than two points, sorry.
 

Alaska49

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this yesr is interesting though because last year literally nobody was rooting for robin but when we won, most eurofans just put on their "INTERNATIONAL JURY KNOWS" tinfoil hats and proceeded to support robin anyway. no such thing for ingrosso this year. hmmm.
 

A-lister

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The final was a pretty anticlimax with Benjamin winning as predictable, however the voting was super close and I can't say it was a runaway winner by any means, in fact Felix was so close in the televotes and pretty close in jury votes aswell, and if Benjamin, who was imo barely a top.5 contender in this weak final, couldn't even manage to secure a win with a healthy margin in a very weak MF, then how is he going to fair in ESC? We are sending our worst entry since 2007, and we are yet again sending a male solo Pop act but this time with an entry that is all show and no entry. I smell a flop in ESC and SVT deserves it considering how bad MF was this year.
 

Mrm

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The final was a pretty anticlimax with Benjamin winning as predictable, however the voting was super close and I can't say it was a runaway winner by any means, in fact Felix was so close in the televotes and pretty close in jury votes aswell, and if Benjamin, who was imo barely a top.5 contender in this weak final, couldn't even manage to secure a win with a healthy margin in a very weak MF, then how is he going to fair in ESC? We are sending our worst entry since 2007, and we are yet again sending a male solo Pop act but this time with an entry that is all show and no entry. I smell a flop in ESC and SVT deserves it considering how bad MF was this year.

NEO for 2019!!! xyes xyaaay
 

tsegaye

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The final was a pretty anticlimax with Benjamin winning as predictable, however the voting was super close and I can't say it was a runaway winner by any means, in fact Felix was so close in the televotes and pretty close in jury votes aswell, and if Benjamin, who was imo barely a top.5 contender in this weak final, couldn't even manage to secure a win with a healthy margin in a very weak MF, then how is he going to fair in ESC? We are sending our worst entry since 2007, and we are yet again sending a male solo Pop act but this time with an entry that is all show and no entry. I smell a flop in ESC and SVT deserves it considering how bad MF was this year.

https://blogg.svt.se/melodifestival...n-och-måns-har-fått-mer-än-benjamin-ingrosso/

Have you read this? Sure, the televoting was tight but that is mainly because of the app voting. Just because he's not a standout in the televoting doesn't mean that he has no chance in the televoting in ESC. 3 out of 4 in the televoting top 4 is radio/spotify hits so how could that be a sign on a bad standard? The others would be much more distanced in the jury voting if the old system was used, almost as big margins as Loreen and Måns had.
 

A-lister

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https://blogg.svt.se/melodifestival...n-och-måns-har-fått-mer-än-benjamin-ingrosso/

Have you read this? Sure, the televoting was tight but that is mainly because of the app voting. Just because he's not a standout in the televoting doesn't mean that he has no chance in the televoting in ESC. 3 out of 4 in the televoting top 4 is radio/spotify hits so how could that be a sign on a bad standard?

But he wasn't a standout in a crappy year, and imo his entry wasn't even top. 3 in a crappy final, so I base my opinion on that. People are free to disagree though, but I think you can't call something a success when it doesn't even standout amongst very weak competitors xshrug
 

FilipFromSweden

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That random guy from 2010 who made AC

Also it’s interesting you say Benjamin had weak competition when the 2018 final has the biggest voting record of all time. By logic, weak competition should result in him winning even bigger in the televote.
 

A-lister

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That random guy from 2010 who made AC

Also it’s interesting you say Benjamin had weak competition when the 2018 final has the biggest voting record of all time. By logic, weak competition should result in him winning even bigger in the televote.

With free heart votes you'll obviously get higher voting numbers, I mean I remember those days when you only had one expensive telephone number to choose, then they introduced two numbers and sms votes and now with those app votes the voting numbers are skyrocketing, but I wouldn't read too much into it, the viewership is the lowest in years so it's not like more people are giving their support.

But that was my point, even amongst weak competition he couldn't even manage a landslide win which atleast to me is quite telling about the "quality" of this winner and its potential chances in ESC.
 

A-lister

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I consider this as a very rude question now TBH! :lol:

Of course, The KING NEO, Human frontier!! :mrgreen: xlove xheart xbow xyes xyaaay


Goteborg 2020!! xyaay

I'm shocked someone even remembered this budget Mika who had no career what-so-ever after this stand-in in MF xshrug
 

Mrm

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I want more entries like in 2009, 2010 MF, with these fantastic synth schalgers..
I want Alexander Bard to write every second song for 2019 MF!
I want BWO to reunite and perform 7th in the 4th heat and win the whole thing hands down! xheat
 
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