The JURY Recepy for Eurovision success ... good or bad?

[CC92]

And I agree it is mainly butthurt westeners and "Europop queens" that were dissatisfied and were wanting the 'juries' back. To have western countries in good positions you do not need a 'jury' but appealing songs.

 

[A-lister]

Here is your proof.

Proof of what exactly? Hardly a proof stating that the majority in 2013 agrees with the juries?

This was in 2009. Matt said that the EBU brought Juries back because of the public, and they did.

Well, I didn't deny this though, I reacted at him saying that today a majority wants the juries, which there's no proof for, just wishful thinking...

 

[A-lister]

And I agree it is mainly butthurt westeners and "Europop queens" that were dissatisfied and were wanting the 'juries' back. To have western countries in good positions you do not need a 'jury' but appealing songs.

Agreed, and the public has proven that they are totally ok with voting for western songs aswell these days...

 

[CC92]

And I agree it is mainly butthurt westeners and "Europop queens" that were dissatisfied and were wanting the 'juries' back. To have western countries in good positions you do not need a 'jury' but appealing songs.

Agreed, and the public has proven that they are totally ok with voting for western songs aswell these days...

What? They never had any problems with that. It's highly dumb to conclude from failures of bad entries that good ones could not succeed either.

 

[A-lister]

What? They never had any problems with that. It's highly dumb to conclude from failures of bad entries that good ones could not succeed either.

There were some cases where it was obvious that western countries or countries with lack of bloc/diaspora helpers actually got driven over, BUT in general the "eastern" countries simply had better songs and performances, and some bitter arrogant westerners who aren't open to anything else than safe western radio pop in English got butthurt and now we have a jury that simply premier that type of music so that this ignorant little group can be satisfied finally

 

[Verjamem]

In 2007-2008, 100% televoting wasn't that huge problem like everyone say. If "Western countries" don't wanted to send a very good/masterpiece songs, they had a weak results. High place/Grand Prix is not given for nothing

 

[CC92]

What? They never had any problems with that. It's highly dumb to conclude from failures of bad entries that good ones could not succeed either.

There were some cases where it was obvious that western countries or countries with lack of bloc/diaspora helpers actually got driven over, BUT in general the "eastern" countries simply had better songs and performances, and some bitter arrogant westerners who aren't open to anything else than safe western radio pop in English got butthurt and now we have a jury that simply premier that type of music so that this ignorant little group can be satisfied finally

Bloc votes do not really affect the high ranks. Mid-table placings and occasionaly borderline qualifiers get changed but in general the diverse biases cancel each other out in the final result. No entry that failed would of done well with average or even above-average bloc support.

 

[A-lister]

In 2007-2008, 100% televoting wasn't that huge problem like everyone say. If "Western countries" don't wanted to send a very good/masterpiece songs, they had a weak results. High place/Grand Prix is not given for nothing

I mean, there WAS a problem, some countries did in fact have an unfair advantage thanks to diaspora voting mostly... so it's kinda pointless to say there weren't any problems.

But all in all, the western countries in general simply had worse entries and didn't put as much effort, so in general it's just arrogance and bitterness that brought the juries back... a sort of superior-complex where people from the "rich west" thought that they should always be better than the "poor east"...

 

[lucian-crusher]

I mean, there WAS a problem, some countries did in fact have an unfair advantage thanks to diaspora voting mostly... so it's kinda pointless to say there weren't any problems.

But all in all, the western countries in general simply had worse entries and didn't put as much effort, so in general it's just arrogance and bitterness that brought the juries back... a sort of superior-complex where people from the "rich west" thought that they should always be better than the "poor east"...

But I also think that Western Europe was a bit scared back then. I mean, why did , and sent great artists and good song only after the jury was introduced?

 

[Verjamem]

I mean, there WAS a problem, some countries did in fact have an unfair advantage thanks to diaspora voting mostly... so it's kinda pointless to say there weren't any problems.

Ok, at this point you have right. Croatia or FYR Macedonia each time advance, was very unfair.

But all in all, the western countries in general simply had worse entries and didn't put as much effort, so in general it's just arrogance and bitterness that brought the juries back... a sort of superior-complex where people from the "rich west" thought that they should always be better than the "poor east"...

Yeah, it's well said.

 

[Luki]

If there weren't any juries, we would still have entries like Ukraine 2007 coming 2nd, etc. This year there was Montenegro which IMO had a "composition" with no artistic value whatsoever. It was the juries who didn't allow this silly thing to qualify, otherwise it would have probably been in top 10 in the final :?

And A-lister... I have a reason to believe that you support non-English songs just because they are not English... talking about being biased :?

That's just silly, there is no real definition of what is and should be considered artistic. Throughout history there have been major changes in any of many arts, whether it is music, paintings, statuary or any other... Fact is that everytime something new would come to the surface it would be considered as bad or less valuable, like rock n roll for example which was considered to be satanic, awful but today it's completely different. This is not something that depends from person to person, this is a fact.

Besides Ukraine 2007 has more value and meaning than Estonia 2013 for example (since it's your fav from this year). While she's singing about something no one will ever care about and that has been overused so many times, Verka made really clever lyrics that lead to many discussion whether it's subliminal message against Russia. Therefore Ukraine 2007 pushed boundaries of another way of expressing your personal opinions and thoughts, besides it's catchy and fun. But the fact that the lyrics meant something and that it protested against somone is something we should appreciate more than some clichéed ballad that's been written for the 100th time.

About the english, I agree with A-lister, I'm sorry but if you can barely speak the language why even bother singing in it when you probably don't even know what the lyrics are about (meant for ex-USSR countries). Besides singing in your mother tongue makes it more personal and it's easier for singer to connect with it - something juries should watch closely.

 

[lucian-crusher]

Besides Ukraine 2007 has more value and meaning than Estonia 2013 for example (since it's your fav from this year). While she's singing about something no one will ever care about and that has been overused so many times, Verka made really clever lyrics that lead to many discussion whether it's subliminal message against Russia. Therefore Ukraine 2007 pushed boundaries of another way of expressing your personal opinions and thoughts, besides it's catchy and fun. But the fact that the lyrics meant something and that it protested against somone is something we should appreciate more than some clichéed ballad that's been written for the 100th time.

THIS

And people also need to understand that if Verka would've represented any other country, including and , it would've still finshed second. Also, there is no proof that wound't score high in 2007 with the juries, as they got 12 points from that year, and had 100 % jury. I would agree to keep the juries but let's have juries like the one had in 2007, that gave 10 points and 12 points, because they had a new type of song that wasn't seen in the contest before

 

[Terence]

About the english, I agree with A-lister, I'm sorry but if you can barely speak the language why even bother singing in it when you probably don't even know what the lyrics are about (meant for ex-USSR countries). Besides singing in your mother tongue makes it more personal and it's easier for singer to connect with it - something juries should watch closely.

My thoughts echoed perfectly there! I can take it when countries like Scandinavians sing in English as AT LEAST they're comprehensible but that's not the case with most ex-USSR countries. Yes Belarus, I'm talking to you.

 

[AdelAdel]

Besides Ukraine 2007 has more value and meaning than Estonia 2013 for example (since it's your fav from this year). While she's singing about something no one will ever care about and that has been overused so many times, Verka made really clever lyrics that lead to many discussion whether it's subliminal message against Russia. Therefore Ukraine 2007 pushed boundaries of another way of expressing your personal opinions and thoughts, besides it's catchy and fun. But the fact that the lyrics meant something and that it protested against somone is something we should appreciate more than some clichéed ballad that's been written for the 100th time.

Lyrics are something I don't pay much attention to. It's mainly the melody, rhythm, and singing that matters. Besides, I was talking about statistical people, not ESC fans alone. Make a million people from all around the world, who haven't heard a single ESC song before, listen to Ukraine 2007 and Estonia 2013 and see which song will be preferred.

 

[lucian-crusher]

Lyrics are something I don't pay much attention to. It's mainly the melody, rhythm, and singing that matters. Besides, I was talking about statistical people, not ESC fans alone. Make a million people from all around the world, who haven't heard a single ESC song before, listen to Ukraine 2007 and Estonia 2013 and see which song will be preferred.

If you say "listen" then I agree with you! But Eurovision is "watch" and "listen", so then would win. Lordi was scoring really bad with the Eurofans and it won mailny because of the people that watched the performance for the first time. Plus, your experiment lacks something. You can't put people to compare a "normal" song with a "crazy" song, because that's not what's happening in Eurovision. But make people watch and listen to 2013, 2007, 2006, 2011, 2013, 2012, 2013, 2013 and 2010. That way it's just like Eurovision, and from the one milion people you ask, many of them would pick 2007.

 

[VikingTiger]

Again I will defend the juries. I am not sure that the juries are hostile to non-english entries.

If we take the example of this year:
From semi 1 both the juries and the televoter had 2 non-english entries in their top 10.
Juries: Moldova (3rd) and Estonia (8th).
The televoters: Montenegro (4th) and Croatia (10th) in their top 10.
So in semi 1 the juries were a bit more friendly to the non-english entries.

From the semi 2:
Juries: Greece (3rd), Israel (9th), SanMarino (10th).
Televoters: Greece (2nd), Bulgaria (6th), Hungary (8th).
The televoters were more friendly to the non-english entries.

Final:
Juries: Moldova (5th), Italy (8th).
Televoters: Greece (4th), Hungary (8th), Italy (10th).
The televoters were again more in love with the non-english entries.

So it might seem that in 2013, the televoters were more into non-english songs than the juries.
What about 2012, then? Again; the placings in top 10:

Semi 1: Juries: Albania (1st), Romania (5th), Russia (8th). Televoters: Russia (1st), Romania (2nd), Albania (3rd).
Semi 2: Juries: Serbia (2nd), Estonia (4th), Bosnia (6th), Croatia (7th), Macedonia (9th). Televoters: Serbia (2nd), Estonia (5th), Bosnia (7th), Macedonia (8th), Bulgaria (9th)

So both the juries and the televoters would have placed the same number of non-english songs in the final of 2012.

Final: Juries: Serbia (2nd), Albania (3rd), Spain (5th), Estonia (6th).
Televoters: Russia (2nd), Serbia (3rd), Romania (7th), Albania (8th),

I havent done or seen any statistical analisis of the split jury/televoting results from the last years when it comes to voting for english/non-english songs. But untill someone can bring statistical proof, I am not about to hop onto A-listers wagon of "juries are hostile to other than english lyrics".

 

[VikingTiger]

I do agree with A-lister that the juries tend to give higher scores for ballads in generel, though. I will give him that. I think this in mainly because the juries will most probably hear the songs more times than just one. They may also tend to put more emphasis on the singers actual vocal abilities (and these last couple of years there have been quite a few remarkably good singers!). And, I guess the average age of the members of the juries are significanly higher than the average age of the televoters (just assuming this, though).

This year it is true we DID see a lot of safe, english, cheesy (?), some of them "swedish", ballads in the final:
Azerbaidjan (2nd in juries, 3rd in televoters).
Russia (10th in juries, 5th in televoters).
Ukraine (6th in juries, 2nd in televoters).
Georgia (13th in juries, 23rd in televoters).

Hmm.... I think it is a fact that juries are more prone to vote for ballads. But are juries the reason for english, cheesy, swedish/american ballads?

There were other "classic" ballads in 2013 as well, not sung in english:

Moldova (5th in juries, 19th in televoters)
Iceland (17th in juries, 12th in televoters)
Estonia (16th in juries, 24th in televoters)

I would not blame the introduction of the juries for countries choosing to sing their ballads in english...

 

[GRE]

Why do you have Romania 2013 as a non English entry?

 

[mono]

That's just silly, there is no real definition of what is and should be considered artistic. Throughout history there have been major changes in any of many arts, whether it is music, paintings, statuary or any other... Fact is that everytime something new would come to the surface it would be considered as bad or less valuable, like rock n roll for example which was considered to be satanic, awful but today it's completely different. This is not something that depends from person to person, this is a fact.

Besides Ukraine 2007 has more value and meaning than Estonia 2013 for example (since it's your fav from this year). While she's singing about something no one will ever care about and that has been overused so many times, Verka made really clever lyrics that lead to many discussion whether it's subliminal message against Russia. Therefore Ukraine 2007 pushed boundaries of another way of expressing your personal opinions and thoughts, besides it's catchy and fun. But the fact that the lyrics meant something and that it protested against somone is something we should appreciate more than some clichéed ballad that's been written for the 100th time.

About the english, I agree with A-lister, I'm sorry but if you can barely speak the language why even bother singing in it when you probably don't even know what the lyrics are about (meant for ex-USSR countries). Besides singing in your mother tongue makes it more personal and it's easier for singer to connect with it - something juries should watch closely.

Hello everybody, my name is Verka Serduchka
Me English nicht verstehen
Let's speak dance

Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Sieben, sieben, ein, zwei
Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Ein, zwei, drei

Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Sieben, sieben, ein, zwei
Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Ein, zwei, drei

Tanzen
Weiter, weiter
Ich liebe

Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Sieben, sieben, ein, zwei
Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Ein, zwei, drei

Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Sieben, sieben, ein, zwei
Sieben, sieben, ai lyu-lyu
Nur ein, zwei, drei

Tanzen
Gdye nogi, gdye nogi?


really cleaver! oh and "Lasha Tumbai" does not sound like Russia Goodbye. if it did, it wouldn't be aloud in esc. remember georgia 2009?

 

[CC92]

@ VikingTiger

It is not much about the language itself rather than the musical styles. Entries that do not sound American/British/Swedish/'classical' struggle normally with the 'jury' votes (in comparision to their public support).