The JURY Recepy for Eurovision success ... good or bad?

[A-lister]

Then let's clarify it.

Based on the information provided, do you believe the juries are bias towards songs performed in English and ignore other songs? If yes, what do you base your claim on?

As I said, there are many factors here, not just the language thing.

In many of your cases, the differences between the public vote and the jury vote didn't even differ that much (in the cases where the jury actually preferred a non-English song more than the public did), so I still don't really see what the juries are here for?

And juries sucking up to Italy for instance is not a new one, it's been pretty apparent since Italy's come back that EBU is doing all in their power to make them stay. So yeah, if that means they'll atleast boost one country that sung partly in native-language then thumbs up... not sure if they would have if you'd just switch the flag of those entries though, but that's just hypothetical guessing from my side...

I still strongly believe though, that if you put all factors together that I wrote (not just the language one), then yeah I think I'm "right"... but of course, people don't have to agree with me...

 

[Matt]

As I said, there are many factors here, not just the language thing.

In many of your cases, the differences between the public vote and the jury vote didn't even differ that much (in the cases where the jury actually preferred a non-English song more than the public did), so I still don't really see what the juries are here for?

And juries sucking up to Italy for instance is not a new one, it's been pretty apparent since Italy's come back that EBU is doing all in their power to make them stay.

I still strongly believe though, that if you put all factors together that I wrote (not just the language one), then yeah I think I'm "right"... but of course, people don't have to agree with me...

You are adressing multiple issues in this post. But I'm happy to hear that you agree that there is no major difference between juries and televotes when it comes ot the language.

To answer one of your question, the juries were brought back to minimize friendly & diaspora voting. Whether or not this has been achieved I am happy to discuss but it's different from the point I was clarifying which is the language situation.

 

[A-lister]

You are adressing multiple issues in this post. But I'm happy to hear that you agree that there is no major difference between juries and televotes when it comes ot the language.

To answer one of your question, the juries were brought back to minimize friendly & diaspora voting. Whether or not this has been achieved I am happy to discuss but it's different from the point I was clarifying which is the language situation.

Well, I still think there's a slight bias against native languages, 2013, 2010... 2012 differs yes, 2011 was pretty equal... but let's say there's none, but there are still other issues left... and the whole thread started with addressing multiple issues, because I don't see the language thing as an isolated case here (and I never did actually).

I know WHY juries were brought back, but it seems they haven't just been brought back for that purpose alone though, it seems they are also here to cater to the westerners who screamed the loudest during the 100% televoting years and (according to THEIR taste and opinion) to "normalize" ESC (= premier safe western sounds over what's considered "different"). I actually don't see that they did much difference to the diaspora/bloc voting anyhow

And, looking at 2013, the public are grown enough and do not need "guidance"... some diaspora countries actually FAILED in the public vote (Armenia, Serbia, Georgia...)... The public aren't as "dumb" as some try to make them look like.

 

[Matt]

Well, I still think there's a slight bias against native languages, 2013, 2010... 2012 differs yes, 2011 was pretty equal... but let's say there's none, but there are still other issues left... and the whole thread started with addressing multiple issues, because I don't see the language thing as an isolated case here (and I never did actually).

I listed 2013 and juries ranked the majority of the non English songs higher than the televoters did. I haven't checked 2010 but let's assume you are right for that year it still shows an even playing field indicating there is no bias from the juries when it comes to languages.
As said, I'm happy to address other issues as well but we need to be able to address one topic at a time.

I know WHY juries were brought back, but it seems they haven't just been brought back for that purpose alone though, it seems they are also here to cater to the westerners who screamed the loudest during the 100% televoting years and to (according to THEIR taste and opinion) to "normalize" ESC (= premier safe western sounds over what's considered "different").

Regarding to your claim about catering to the Western countries, that leaves a lot of room for speculation and conversation so I'm curious to find out if you believe that the juries are preferring Western countries over Eastern based on the results starting 2009.

And, looking at 2013, the public are grown enough and do not need "guidance"... some diaspora countries actually FAILED in the public vote (Armenia, Serbia, Georgia...)... The public aren't as "dumb" as some try to make them look like.

So what you're saying is that at some point the juries were a necessity but that the televote has evolved to a point where juries are no longer needed?

 

[A-lister]

I listed 2013 and juries ranked the majority of the non English songs higher than the televoters did. I haven't checked 2010 but let's assume you are right for that year it still shows an even playing field indicating there is no bias from the juries when it comes to languages.
As said, I'm happy to address other issues as well but we need to be able to address one topic at a time.

Not sure if I can agree on 2013, are you referring to the final only or generally? Anyways, it's still not an isolated issue. Let's take Portugal 2010 for example, sure it was in native language, but it was an American- styled ballad more or less. So again, there are multiple issues here.

Regarding to your claim about catering to the Western countries, that leaves a lot of room for speculation and conversation so I'm curious to find out if you believe that the juries are preferring Western countries over Eastern based on the results starting 2009.

I don't think it has much to do about countries, more about the juries being biased against certain "styles" and "sounds". But sure, some countries will get more help and some less (Italy I honestly believe has an extra boost amongst juries), but generally I wouldn't say it's about countries, and I never claimed it was really.

So what you're saying is that at some point the juries were a necessity but that the televote has evolved to a point where juries are no longer needed?

Well, one can look at it that way sure, but I was never really a fan of the juries. I acknowledge that they could be a good add (especially considering the diaspora voting issue), but tbh I don't see that they added anything good.

My point was simply that when western countries send good stuff, they can manage to qualify on televote alone. The winners also won the televoting (so no need of "jury help" there). And apparently "diaspora countries" can't hide behind bad entries anymore, ironically though it was the juries pushing Armenia & Georgia into the final, now taste differs of course, but I think totally unworthy and apparently the "diaspora" must have agreed to some point otherwise they would have been pushed by televoters aswell like in previous years. Ironically take a look at those entries, surely they didn't really have any attachment to those countries, so why should diaspora run to their phones? Ironically the juries liked this "non-attachment safe western sound"... coincidence?

 

[VikingTiger]

One more, Eurovision 2011 breakdown

televote vs juries

France 15th vs 12th
Greece 3rd vs 14th
Italy (bilingual) 11th vs 1st
Serbia 13th vs 8th
Spain 16th vs 24

The juries here also win 3:2 on this one. I think this should put the "juries vote for English songs" claim to rest.

Thanx! So refreshing to see other people in here basing their posts on actual facts (and thus trying to be less biased)!

 

[A-lister]

Thanx! So refreshing to see other people in here basing their posts on actual facts (and thus trying to be less biased)!

What "facts"? That France got pretty similar support from juries and televoters?, and that juries don't like local/ethno-styled songs (Greece & Spain) but prefer when countries send westernized sounds (Serbia and Italy)?

If anything the 2011 voting table proved my point about juries biasism against local styles

 

[VikingTiger]

What "facts"?

The "facts" I was referring to is the small analisis Matt did over how the juries and the televoters have voted for the non-english entries in the last three editions of the ESC.
Even though he has not done any statistical analisis, showing all the data/figures from a larger sample (in this case alle the non-english entries from three following finals) will always be more valid than showing some handpicked examples to proove ones point.
So if you want to convince me on this point that the juries are more hostile to non-english entries - you have to come up with some real statistical proof.

But again - I do NOT disagree with you that the televoters and the jury have a tendency to vote differently.

 

[A-lister]

^
Well, I already said initially that the issue isn't just a language one, but people in here seem to think that was my only point and that it's somehow isolated to the rest of my points

And as for Matt's "proof", you can see my answer on that in some of my previous posts.

 

[Dark Master]

It's splendid, since Ms. Burger and Lucius Eythor did not win.

 

[CypriotGirl]

It's splendid, since Ms. Burger and Lucius Eythor did not win.

Dark Monster, you're still here

 

[Dark Master]

Dark Monster, you're still here

I beg your pardon. I am here to negotiate about the current host city. Malmo was too uncatholic, fulfilled with the presence of the Dark Lord.