The JURY Recepy for Eurovision success ... good or bad?

[A-lister]

You should read carefully my example, so you can realize that even being last in both split rankings, Spain could end up in higher position than Ireland.
In that particulary case, It's because Spain got higher points in the two countries where was ranked in top 10, although Ireland was ranked higher in more countries, achieved only few points in the three countries where was top 10...

Eurovision.tv even warn it in its article: For example; Ireland has an average jury rank of 16,21 and an average televoting rank of 14,62 in the Grand Final, but only made it into the top-10 in three countries. Consequently, Ireland finished 26th in the Grand Final - lower than twelve countries ranked higher by televoters and three countries ranked higher by juries, who all received more points by ending up in the top-10 in individual countries.

As I said, I don't see anything weird or manipulation. Maths.

I see what you mean now, well if taking into account the making of a top. 10 (12, 10, 8-1 vote), then yeah I also get it... not that it makes the system any better, in contrary perhaps even worse.

 

[A-lister]

If there weren't any juries, we would still have entries like Ukraine 2007 coming 2nd, etc. This year there was Montenegro which IMO had a "composition" with no artistic value whatsoever. It was the juries who didn't allow this silly thing to qualify, otherwise it would have probably been in top 10 in the final :?

And A-lister... I have a reason to believe that you support non-English songs just because they are not English... talking about being biased :?

That's your own opinion, and I respect that...

However I totally disagree, when so called "experts" blocks songs that are in-touch with music trends and out of the box or actually representative of the countries' music cultures, then we have a problem with diversity!

And yes it's a big problem when juries prefer imported non-genuine ballads in English like and over more genuine stuff like and for instance (if we just look at ballads in 2013)... what sort of message does this give to countries that actually send their own products and try to be genuine and true???

If countries gets PUNISHED for sticking to the ESC concept of actually sending entries REPRESENTING their music instead of IMPORTING entries that doesn't have any connection what-so-ever to the country... then it's a big problem for whole ESC.

Maybe you're happy with the anti-diversity mission by the juries, I'm not... taste differs... but if all it takes to get jury love is to send a bland ballad in English imported from Sweden, then I see no point in this contest any longer

 

[AdelAdel]

That's your own opinion, and I respect that...

However I totally disagree, when so called "experts" blocks songs that are in-touch with music trends and out of the box or actually representative of the countries' music cultures, then we have a problem with diversity!

And yes it's a big problem when juries prefer imported non-genuine ballads in English like and over more genuine stuff like and for instance (if we just look at ballads in 2013)... what sort of message does this give to countries that actually send their own products and try to be genuine and true???

If countries gets PUNISHED for sticking to the ESC concept of actually sending entries REPRESENTING their music instead of IMPORTING entries that doesn't have any connection what-so-ever to the country... then it's a big problem for whole ESC.

Maybe you're happy with the anti-diversity mission by the juries, I'm not... taste differs... but if all it takes to get jury love is to send a bland ballad in English imported from Sweden, then I see no point in this contest any longer

But songs in native languages don't have to be always good! That's why I said that you're biased. Because you seem to support anything which isn't in English, regardless of the quality of the song.

 

[A-lister]

But songs in native languages don't have to be always good! That's why I said that you're biased. Because you seem to support anything which isn't in English, regardless of the quality of the song.

I never said that songs in native languages have to be quality, but in these cases I believe that's the case.

I don't consider or quality what-so-ever, entries that the juries supported but not the people

The language issue is just one of many issues, the juries hate for everything local sounding is a far bigger issue imo...

Also I think a new rule preventing imported entries must be introduced, the contest should be about representing the countries' own music scenes (contemporary or traditionally) and not just be a cash show-off to buy entries... it gives a bad taste in mouth when juries find it more honorable to import a dated product from Sweden than send a home-grown product... then it seems the contest simply is corrupted by Swedish writers

I mean what message does this give? "We're a contest where entries represent their countries, but God forbid you if you actually send something representative ! Go and buy your song from Sweden or USA instead!!!!"... I mean c'mon?

 

[Matt]

That's your own opinion, and I respect that...

However I totally disagree, when so called "experts" blocks songs that are in-touch with music trends and out of the box or actually representative of the countries' music cultures, then we have a problem with diversity!

And yes it's a big problem when juries prefer imported non-genuine ballads in English like and over more genuine stuff like and for instance (if we just look at ballads in 2013)... what sort of message does this give to countries that actually send their own products and try to be genuine and true???

If countries gets PUNISHED for sticking to the ESC concept of actually sending entries REPRESENTING their music instead of IMPORTING entries that doesn't have any connection what-so-ever to the country... then it's a big problem for whole ESC.

Maybe you're happy with the anti-diversity mission by the juries, I'm not... taste differs... but if all it takes to get jury love is to send a bland ballad in English imported from Sweden, then I see no point in this contest any longer

Again, was high in the rankings because of the televoters, the juries put it a lot lower. If you want to use examples they need to be accurate.

The statements you made in your post are not really based on facts but rather your personal impression but when you look at the numbers I would beg to differ.

 

[A-lister]

Again, was high in the rankings because of the televoters, the juries put it a lot lower. If you want to use examples they need to be accurate.

The statements you made in your post are not really based on facts but rather your personal impression but when you look at the numbers I would beg to differ.

was 2nd with both juries and televoting in the semi, yes it was #10 in jury votes in the final, still FAR too high based on "expertise votes" though... and if we look back some years we can find the jury praise for 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 or 2011 ... so acting American Idol winning ballad is obviously a "winning formula" if the juries decide in a EUROPEAN contest!...

And instead of putting genuine stuff LAST in the semis, they could have put import products further down instead...

So it all depends how one wants to look at it,,, the juries still preferred stuff like and over and (if one can count as a ballad)... and yeah, I think the latter two give ESC far more than the former... but taste differs.

I still think that it's a disgrace that homegrown more genuine/interesting stuff gets punished, while imported products that no one in the real world even cares about gets praised by these "experts"...

The message the juries are sending out to countries like Bulgaria, Montenegro, Hungary & Croatia: Next year please send a safe dated ballad in English, preferably imported from Sweden... !

I think it's an awful message and it's contradictory to the concept of this contest!

 

[JTL90]

Why on earth people want 100% televoting back? Do people really want to see again that Spain (and propably Italy) give 12 points to Romania and Germany gives 12 points to Turkey (if they are in) every single year?

But I don't think that juries are going anywhere in near future. I think that last year's televoting, where Sweden won Russia with only eleven points ensures that.

I would also support imported entries ban, if I wouldn't know Luxembourg's history in the contest (Almost all their songs were imported).

 

[A-lister]

Why on earth people want 100% televoting back? Do people really want to see again that Spain (and propably Italy) give 12 points to Romania and Germany gives 12 points to Turkey (if they are in) every single year?

But I don't think that juries are going anywhere in near future. I think that last year's televoting, where Sweden won Russia with only eleven points ensures that.

I would also support imported entries ban, if I wouldn't know Luxembourg's history in the contest (Almost all their songs were imported).

Neither , or made it based on televotes this year, and both are "diaspora vote gainer" countries I don't think we need juries to "lecture" us anymore... I don't support biased diaspora voting, but the juries shouldn't be put here to "punish" diaspora countries either... they should be objective and experts on music, and apparently they're nothing of that and the public seem far more open-minded these days than the juries are.

Well, atleast the 2012 would have ended a bit more exciting then don't you think?

I think there can be an exception if the country has a very tiny local market, or if acts/composers are having are ACTIVE forces in these markets (and with active I don't just mean release their stuff there, but actually work in those scenes and with local acts actively)... but other than that the "buy a costum-made ESC entry to gain jury support" shouldn't be allowed anymore... the point with ESC should be entries representing their countries and not just imported from abroad with zero connection.

 

[JTL90]

Those split result don't tell the whole truth, because they're only average numbers. It's possible that Armenia has been really high in some countries and really low in other countries.

But I agree with you that it's not good that, for example, Georgia buys song from Sweden just for eurovision. Your suggestion's problem is that where you draw the line what is very tiny locat market. Only suggestion I have invented is that songwriters has to come from home nation or it's neighbour nations. Singers can come from anywhere, this is composition contest. This means that, for example, Luxembourg can use songwriters from Luxembourg, France, Belgium or Germany.

 

[A-lister]

Those split result don't tell the whole truth, because they're only average numbers. It's possible that Armenia has been really high in some countries and really low in other countries.

But I agree with you that it's not good that, for example, Georgia buys song from Sweden just for eurovision. Your suggestion's problem is that where you draw the line what is very tiny locat market. Only suggestion I have invented is that songwriters has to come from home nation or it's neighbour nations. Singers can come from anywhere, this is composition contest. This means that, for example, Luxembourg can use songwriters from Luxembourg, France, Belgium or Germany.

Well, nevertheless Armenia this year is a proof that even with massive diaspora, an entry won't any longer get televoting support if it sucks... however the juries stepped in to help ironically

I think your example is good, because like for instance in some region's the music scenes are integrated and composers works with acts from their neighboring countries, for instance this is very true in Balkan region (in particular the ex-Yugo one), also in the ex-USSR region (in particular the Russia-Ukraine-Belarus trio).

However, it's not that hard to check if a composer/producer/songwriter actually is active in those markets... it's just to check which acts they've worked with basically (like for instance Romanian producer Costi Ioinata who did the Romanian 2012 entry is very active in Bulgaria and worked with plenty of Bulgarian acts, he is also producing for acts in Serbia and elsewhere... same with Albanian producer Flori Mumajesi who is also active on the Bulgarian scene)...

However, G:son and those other Swedes connection to the Caucasus region is ZERO... and I think it's a loss for ESC as a concept if all it takes is to buy your entry from abroad like that, and I think it's a shame that the juries even support this over actually homegrown products... it really should be the other way round. I mean it's disgusting when countries gets punished for staying true while others gets praised for only showing off that they have the money to import something from Sweden (most of the times)

ESC shouldn't be Melodifestivalen goes Europe, it should be about countries sending entries representing them, not MF left-overs and Swedish writers promoting their stuff in ESC under some foreign flag totally unattached to them.

 

[ParadiseES]

Seriously, what's this new trend of supporting the old thing of 100% televoting? That was change for clear reasons and ESC is MUCH better and fair now. So I don't get why we should come back.

Only juries should be chosen better. Maybe having people related to ESC. That would help typical ethno entries which juries kill for some reason I don't understand.

 

[A-lister]

Seriously, what's this new trend of supporting the old thing of 100% televoting? That was change for clear reasons and ESC is MUCH better and fair now. So I don't get why we should come back.

Only juries should be chosen better. Maybe having people related to ESC. That would help typical ethno entries which juries kill for some reason I don't understand.

Is ESC really better and faired now? Actually, I think the power of diaspora voting has been self-reduced, I mean look at Armenia and Serbia this year for instance... the former actually made it thanx to juries and not thanx to the people.

Well, I think the juries has an agenda to simply vote against National diversity... that's why the ethnic entries fails in jury votes...

Well, diversity in general doesn't seem to go down well with the juries, only safe songs in English (with some few exceptions) seem to be what countries need to send to succeed with the juries

And again, why should some small groups have equal say as millions? Do we need "guardians" leading us in (according to them) "right" direction?

 

[AdelAdel]

Gosh, A-lister...

Televoting is as unfair as ever, for example voting for your country of origin just because it's your country of origin is very unfair and illogical as this is supposed to be a MUSIC contest and not a country contest. Voting for your neighbor just because it's your neighbor is equally ridiculous. And this happens with televote all the time, do I want it back? No, siree!

These kinds of voters don't care about ESC or music, all they care about is to "show how friendly they are towards their country of origin/neighbor".

 

[Matt]

Seriously, what's this new trend of supporting the old thing of 100% televoting? QUOTE]

It's not really a trend, only a few loud individuals. Overall people are satisfied with the juries.

 

[CC92]

Gosh, A-lister...

Televoting is as unfair as ever, for example voting for your country of origin just because it's your country of origin is very unfair and illogical as this is supposed to be a MUSIC contest and not a country contest. Voting for your neighbor just because it's your neighbor is equally ridiculous. And this happens with televote all the time, do I want it back? No, siree!

These kinds of voters don't care about ESC or music, all they care about is to "show how friendly they are towards their country of origin/neighbor".

Yeah, how awfully primitive those pesky plebs are... thankfully you're one of the very few decent and civilised human beings along with the ESC jurors. :roll:

 

[CC92]

Seriously, what's this new trend of supporting the old thing of 100% televoting?

It's not really a trend, only a few loud individuals. Overall people are satisfied with the juries.

I do hope the majority of ESC fans keeps being satisfied with the 'jury' system. There could be hardly better proofs for its wrongness.

 

[Hele.]

I'm for juries overall but I think 50% (and especially with new, more "fair" system where they even easily can degrade televote favorites) is too much. Maybe somehow like 70%-30% would be ok.
They definitely helped to avoid joke entries (like Ireland, France and Spain in 2008.) but still too much possibility to deciding on them.

 

[A-lister]

Gosh, A-lister...

Televoting is as unfair as ever, for example voting for your country of origin just because it's your country of origin is very unfair and illogical as this is supposed to be a MUSIC contest and not a country contest. Voting for your neighbor just because it's your neighbor is equally ridiculous. And this happens with televote all the time, do I want it back? No, siree!

These kinds of voters don't care about ESC or music, all they care about is to "show how friendly they are towards their country of origin/neighbor".

I think the failure of Armenia, Gerogia and Serbia in televoting this year sort of dismiss your theory...

And if you somehow think that juries are "unbiased and fair", then think again...

Oh and for your info, countries that doesn't have a strong network of "neighboring helpers" or diaspora managed to qualify thanks to televoting alone (Netherlands, Belgium, Malta, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Ireland...)...

So what's your point? That public are dumbed-down and need guidance from so called "musical experts" that premier countries that import some dated cheese ballad in English over countries sending something genuine or different? ... well if that's your definition of "fair and unbiased", then I don't want a fair contest then!

 

[A-lister]

It's not really a trend, only a few loud individuals. Overall people are satisfied with the juries.

That's hardly objective, just check the reactions at the official Eurovision page... I'd say it's 50/50 (and always been 50/50)...

 

[Matt]

That's hardly objective, just check the reactions at the official Eurovision page... I'd say it's 50/50 (and always been 50/50)...

Those do not represent the majority. I was referring to casual folks, not hardcore fans