SERBIA 2012 - Željko Joksimović - Nije ljubav stvar

[A-lister]

I referred to The Netherlands as an example and yes: local acts there often sing locally in English. And I know that in many European countries you see the same thing, so I don't see it as such an issue. But it brings me back to my main point: it needs to be a free choice. I never liked the EBU to decide for another country what language would be the best way to express themselves. That is up that country alone.

But this thread is about Serbia not Netherlands

Who talked about forcing? I was just happy they made this decision and I hope more countries would follow

 

[JustinCase]

2011: Bland generic Swedish produced middle-of the road pop ballad in English.
2010: Although quite original in Eurovision terms, this was basically Germany's take at BritPop (Lily Allen comes to mind).
2009: Finally something local, but of course in English...
2008: A R&B-pop ballad heavily inspired by the sound of Timbaland and such, not really "Russian" ... most Russian acts (including Dima himself) sings in Russian, not English... oh wait.. was this even made by Russians? Nope..

I am not really sure if we've watched the same contest ...

Yes we did. And you have a point when it comes to the Azerbaijan victory especially. It doesn't sound very "Azeri" to me either.

But I still prefer them to choose for themselves whether or not they sing in Azeri or English or whatever. And that's the point. There are still plenty of countries that sound very original, whether or not it is in English.

As for the Russian victory, yes it is true that most Russians sing in Russian, the style of the song is very much what is popular among Russian artists as well. But had it been in Russian it would have probably never have won, sadly.

 

[A-lister]

So, if it's not English, what language would be the most well-known throughout Europe?

All depends on where you are.

In ex-USSR (which is a pretty big part of the contestants) - Russian is the second language. Looking more closely, in Azerbaijan for instance Turkish would be more known than English aswell.

In countries like Slovakia and Hungary, depending on community and age obviously, but I'd say German is more known than English.

Remember each country has equal say, so it doesn't really matter if they have 15 million (Netherlands) or just a million (Latvia). So those two combined obviously English would be the "second most known language", heck Dutch would probably end up most known ... but that doesn't say anything really does it?

 

[JustinCase]

But this thread is about Serbia not Netherlands

Who talked about forcing? I was just happy they made this decision and I hope more countries would follow

No fair: you talked about English in general and other European countries. But anyway.

And with forcing I mean the situation before the language rule was abolished. I am just glad countries can choose for themselves. And if Serbia chooses Serbian: great!

 

[A-lister]

No fair: you talked about English in general and other European countries. But anyway.

And with forcing I mean the situation before the language rule was abolished. I am just glad countries can choose for themselves. And if Serbia chooses Serbian: great!

Was I? I kind of lost trace of our original posts

I'm not really pro- a new language rule, I'm just supporting countries who are more true to their own markets and stick to their languages.

 

[JustinCase]

In ex-USSR (which is a pretty big part of the contestants) - Russian is the second language. Looking more closely, in Azerbaijan for instance Turkish would be more known than English aswell.

In countries like Slovakia and Hungary, depending on community and age obviously, but I'd say German is more known than English.

Old people yes, but among younger people though, it is definitely English. Also in Eastern Europe. I copied this from Wikipedia:

English is a lingua franca in parts of Western and Northern Europe. In the EU25, working knowledge of English as a foreign language is clearly leading at 38%, followed by German and French (at 14% each), Russian and Spanish (at 6% each), and Italian (3%). Working knowledge of English is particularly high in Scandinavia (Denmark 90%, Sweden 89%) and the Netherlands (87%). In Eastern and Southern Europe, working knowledge of English is lower, around 20-29%. On average, 38% of citizens of the European Union (excluding the United Kingdom and Ireland) stated that they have sufficient knowledge of English to have a conversation."

 

[JustinCase]

I'm not really pro- a new language rule, I'm just supporting countries who stick to their languages.

Well, at least we have something we agree on.

 

[A-lister]

As for the Russian victory, yes it is true that most Russians sing in Russian, the style of the song is very much what is popular among Russian artists as well. But had it been in Russian it would have probably never have won, sadly.

As for the style, hmm... true to some extent. Russian pop is quite diverse and heavily "western" influenced, but it's still very distinct, we don't really get stuff like that here in Western Europe or in the USA, that song was an "imported product" sort of like Azerbaijan's victory song aswell, I guess it's more close to Russian contemporary music than the Azeri song was to Azeri music, but still not exactly.

Oh well

 

[A-lister]

Old people yes, but among younger people though, it is definitely English. Also in Eastern Europe. I copied this from Wikipedia:

English is a lingua franca in parts of Western and Northern Europe. In the EU25, working knowledge of English as a foreign language is clearly leading at 38%, followed by German and French (at 14% each), Russian and Spanish (at 6% each), and Italian (3%). Working knowledge of English is particularly high in Scandinavia (Denmark 90%, Sweden 89%) and the Netherlands (87%). In Eastern and Southern Europe, working knowledge of English is lower, around 20-29%. On average, 38% of citizens of the European Union (excluding the United Kingdom and Ireland) stated that they have sufficient knowledge of English to have a conversation."

But those statistics mostly show overall EU, not particular areas or countries (which is sort of more important if we stick to the Eurovision system).

When I was in Hungary, I almost met no one who spoke any English (including younger generation)

 

[JustinCase]

Yes, but the younger generation certainly wouldn't speak Russian as a second language either. English is the dominant second language among the younger generation as well. I lived in Latvia for a while and pretty much no Latvian born after 1991 has learnt Russian, unless they are ethnically Russian of course. My point is that it is a huge shift all over Europe toward English.

 

[AlekS]

I may have missed that



It depends, if there's almost no artist in your own scene singing in English, and you never really done it yourself, then for sure it's not really a representative or natural thing to just suddenly do so.

2011: Bland generic Swedish produced middle-of the road pop ballad in English.
2010: Although quite original in Eurovision terms, this was basically Germany's take at BritPop (Lily Allen comes to mind).
2009: Finally something local, but of course in English...
2008: A R&B-pop ballad heavily inspired by the sound of Timbaland and such, not really "Russian" ... most Russian acts (including Dima himself) sings in Russian, not English... oh wait.. was this even made by Russians? Nope..

I am not really sure if we've watched the same contest ...

The juries were introduced in 2009. So televoters chose those horrible songs in English (*teh drama*) in 2008.
You do realize that there are clear parameters in their voting tables & there's no such thing like language?
A song in Italian finished 2nd in 2011.

That the jury prefered Bulgarian song more than televoters? They prefered Cypriot and Macedonian songs aswell.
Btw the juries gave Nina 102 points and televoters just 42! 3
Some people choose to sing in their language, some don't. The world won't stop if somebody won't choose their native language for ESC.

 

[A-lister]

Yes, but the younger generation certainly wouldn't speak Russian as a second language either. English is the dominant second language among the younger generation as well. I lived in Latvia for a while and pretty much no Latvian born after 1991 has learnt Russian, unless they are ethnically Russian of course. My point is that it is a huge shift all over Europe toward English.

I never said there wasn't a shift, all I'm saying is that in some countries it's still not second or in some cases even third language and overall numbers are not interesting in ESC since countries vote individually with equal power.

As for Latvia, Russian is the second most known language, but I guess because of the large Russian minority? But if we go back to the charts discussion, they seem to be the Baltic country with highest percentage of Russian acts having success there.

 

[A-lister]

The juries were introduced in 2009. So televoters chose those horrible songs in English (*teh drama*) in 2008.
You do realize that there are clear parameters in their voting tables & there's no such thing like language?
A song in Italian finished 2nd in 2011.

That the jury prefered Bulgarian song more than televoters? They prefered Cypriot and Macedonian songs aswell.
Btw the juries gave Nina 102 points and televoters just 42! 3

That list didn't have anything to do about juries though, it was about winners being/ or not being "generic" or representative of their local markets

As for juries supporting more or less than televoters, I tend to only look where the support/no support differs widely (as in the Italian case), however Italy is a special case though...

 

[AlekS]

That list didn't have anything to do about juries though, it was about winners being/ or not being "generic" or representative of their local markets

As for juries supporting more or less than televoters, I tend to only look where the support/no support differs widely (as in the Italian case), however Italy is a special case though...

And I refered to your previous saying about biasism So televoters were biased in 2008?
If performers work for those markets they are already representatives as well as their songs (no matter which language)

If they are biased they wouldn't chose Italy. And Serbian entry?

 

[A-lister]

And I refered to your previous saying about biasism So televoters were biased in 2008?
If performers work for those markets they are already representatives as well as their songs (no matter which language)

Well, I don't really think they represent their market if it has nothing to do with that market (nor what they usually do themselves), but that's just my opinion.

No, that discussion had nothing to do with language biasism? It was something else. We simultaneously discussed different things so I guess you mixed some of those

 

[AlekS]

Well, I don't really think they represent their market if it has nothing to do with that market (nor what they usually do themselves), but that's just my opinion.

If it's done by their producers or performed by their singers it already belongs to their market and it's not just an opinion. This is how it works.

No, that discussion had nothing to do with language biasism? It was something else. We simultaneously discussed different things so I guess you mixed some of those

Basically you just proved the juries English biasism right there, because back in the days juries decided the whole outcome, and they preferred English (I mean they had all these choices, but mostly went for English anyways). When televoting was introduced, although English still dominating, you could see styles and languages ending up in high positions that were almost always overlooked by the juries.

I can add this quote of yours as well, I thought you remember what you said

Speaking of.

The world may be globalized but we're still countries with our own languages and music scenes, and in the case of Serbia, most of their own popular acts almost never sung in English, so you think it's representative of them to send it to ESC? To satisfy who exactly? I thought they should represent Serbia and not the global music scene?

Televoters? I didn't know that this contest was for Serbians only or only for those who appreciate Serbian language. I'd like to be satisfied no matter which language it is.

 

[A-lister]

If it's done by their producers or performed by their singers it already belongs to their market and it's not just an opinion. This is how it works.

Let's agree to disagree on that one. I feel if an entry is made especially for ESC but doesn't really represent what the artist would normally do nor the market he/she belongs to, then imo it's not really representative, but tailored for ESC purpose only.

Televoters? I didn't know that this contest was for Serbians only or only for those who appreciate Serbian language. I'd like to be satisfied no matter which language it is.

Meaning you can't be satisfied with an entry in Serbian for Serbia in ESC or it has to be in English?

 

[AlekS]

Let's agree to disagree on that one. I feel if an entry is made especially for ESC but doesn't really represent what the artist would normally do nor the market he/she belongs to, then imo it's not really representative, but tailored for ESC purpose only.

It's not about agreeing to disagree - ESC is a part of music market and all songs are being released so it's not just ESC purpose.

Meaning you can't be satisfied with an entry in Serbian for Serbia in ESC or it has to be in English?

Does it have to be for Serbia only?
I clearly said that it doesn't matter for me which language it is.

 

[A-lister]

It's not about agreeing to disagree - ESC is a part of music market and all songs are being released so it's not just ESC purpose.

You know very well what I meant and that's a simplistic way of looking at it. Yeah sure, everything being released in a music market is "part of it", but is it really representative of that market? That's a whole different discussion. I mean Sweden could send Chinese Opera to ESC, I wouldn't say it represented what's generally popular here and for sure not traditional Swedish music. Carola could sing in Spanish all out of sudden, but for sure it wouldn't represent her as an artist if she never done it in the past and wouldn't continue doing it afterwards either, also considering the lack of Spanish on the Swedish music scene in general (atleast looking at what's popular), it would feel odd having Spanish represent us in ESC.

Again, you probably won't agree, but I think atleast I made my point a little clearer.

 

[qabadachia]

Someone above mentioned Nina and the fact that she managed to score 102 pts with the jury and only 42 with the televoters. Now, she sang in Serbian, but the fact is that the song she sang ("Čaroban") had nothing to do with typical Balkan stuff that causes ex-Yu diaspora to break glasses and cut their wrists. That's why Dino Merlin did so much better in spite the fact that he sang in English. When it comes to block voting and diaspora, language is not that important. If it's a popular singer and music is heavily influenced by local musical heritage, he or she is going to score high.