No Juries anymore ONLY TELEVOTING!

[Matt]

But it's not 50:50, just on paper, but in reality juries got more powers than televoters because unlike televoters (that are millions of uncorrelated people), the juries are just a handful of groups that can easily get together to vote for one cause (initially they were brought back to ESC by EBU to cater to western broadcasters and supposed "taste"... so that alone should be a warning sign on its own ), and we see that they use their powers to do just that. With the new/current voting system, the juries can even manipulate votes and can de facto fix 0pts for entries that are getting public 12-points, which in reality makes the televoting pointless and fool people to spend money on something that they won't even see get anything back from. This should be a fest for the public, not for some "idea" of a few.

The juries won't know the televotes as they're voting the night before.

The juries for the most part agreed with the televotes result except your precious Poland. It is a song that you call original and authentic which I would call cheap and tacky. (but tastes differ). So just because your favorite wasn't supported by the juries, most other televote favorites were.

But keep your over the top outrage going, it's quite entertaining to the rest of us.

 

[A-lister]

The juries won't know the televotes as they're voting the night before.

The juries for the most part agreed with the televotes result except your precious Poland. It is a song that you call original and authentic which I would call cheap and tacky. (but tastes differ). So just because your favorite wasn't supported by the juries, most other televote favorites were.

But keep your over the top outrage going, it's quite entertaining to the rest of us.

Well, you should check some facts regarding UK and Ireland then. Both countries have big Polish diaspora and this song was promoted there. It was pretty apparent in forehand that it would be a public success and I still find it weak by the haters of this song (including you) to applaud a blatant sabotage of some juries just because it fits your taste. Dead last in semi and final? Plz... But then again it's not the first time this was acted. Didn't BBC use a back-up jury in 2003 just to give t.A.T.u. a 0? (when they were really popular at the moment in the UK and Europe in general). So we've seen that act acted out before

But then again, you do the same thing you accuse me for here. You AGREE with them because it fits YOUR taste... how convenient isn't it?

But most people who knows Irish and UK political debate climate, the diaspora thing and what else would agree that this was calculated sabotage, regardless of them liking or disliking the song. I've even seen some Brits and Irish people in here admitting that, so some can let their taste aside and admit realities.

 

[Matt]

Well, you should check some facts regarding UK and Ireland then. Both countries have big Polish diaspora and this song was promoted there. It was pretty apparent in forehand that it would be a public success and I still find it weak by the haters of this song (including you) to applaud a blatant sabotage of some juries just because it fits your taste. Dead last in semi and final? Plz... But then again it's not the first time this was acted. Didn't BBC use a back-up jury in 2003 just to give t.A.T.u. a 0? (when they were really popular at the moment in the UK and Europe in general). So we've seen that act acted out before

But then again, you do the same thing you accuse me for here. You AGREE with them because it fits YOUR taste... how convenient isn't it?

But most people who knows Irish and UK political debate climate, the diaspora thing and what else would agree that this was calculated sabotage, regardless of them liking or disliking the song. I've even seen some Brits and Irish people in here admitting that, so some can let their taste aside and admit realities.

A dozen countries put Poland in their Bottom 3, the reality is most juries hated that song. I would understand and share your suspicion if Poland would have received heavy jury support by most other country but it didn't. So whatever you call a fact may be in the A-lister Universe but does not meet the definition as per any dictionary.

And unlike you I don't run around and throw temper tantrums cause my favorites didn't do well (with juries and/or televoters). Switzerland became one of my faves and was heavily punished by the juries. Oh and the German jury is the only one that put Poland in their Top 5 and they have a huge Polish diaspora as well. Are you pointing that out, too or wouldn't that fit your conspiracy theories?

 

[Franco]

But what if a song gets not only the diaspora votes, but also lots of votes from the locals?
Once it's first on televotes, on the current system, what else could be done to prove that it's liked by this and that too?
That's why a percentage system has to be implemented, rather than the ranking.

 

[lilka]

A dozen countries put Poland in their Bottom 3, the reality is most juries hated that song. I would understand and share your suspicion if Poland would have received heavy jury support by most other country but it didn't. So whatever you call a fact may be in the A-lister Universe but does not meet the definition as per any dictionary.

And unlike you I don't run around and throw temper tantrums cause my favorites didn't do well (with juries and/or televoters). Switzerland became one of my faves and was heavily punished by the juries. Oh and the German jury is the only one that put Poland in their Top 5 and they have a huge Polish diaspora as well. Are you pointing that out, too or wouldn't that fit your conspiracy theories?

Sorry, but how is the Polish diaspora in Germany related to the German jury?

 

[A-lister]

A dozen countries put Poland in their Bottom 3, the reality is most juries hated that song. I would understand and share your suspicion if Poland would have received heavy jury support by most other country but it didn't. So whatever you call a fact may be in the A-lister Universe but does not meet the definition as per any dictionary.

And unlike you I don't run around and throw temper tantrums cause my favorites didn't do well (with juries and/or televoters). Switzerland became one of my faves and was heavily punished by the juries. Oh and the German jury is the only one that put Poland in their Top 5 and they have a huge Polish diaspora as well. Are you pointing that out, too or wouldn't that fit your conspiracy theories?

As I already pointed out (even prior the contest), I never expected the juries to generally embrace the Polish entry. I point out in particular a couple of broadcasters that systematically put Poland dead last, most probably with the knowledge that it would gain public support and they wanted to hinder that. I stick to my opinion that taste aside, I can't see how this could be considered the WORST of all (like BBC and RTÉ clearly wanted to "state"). It's not as if Cleo did vocally bad or that the song is a pile of mess (well the latter is obviously subjective, but still).

Germany don't have the same view on Poland and Polish diaspora as in Ireland and UK, where it's starting to get a bit hostile, which is partly provided by their national broadcasters. These are not really simple things, there's political undertones here. Surely the juries can put the blame on "the boobies", but that didn't stop the Irish singer for showcasing half her silicones (eventhough, unlike the Polish entry, it wasn't even meant to be ironic or anything as that entry was a standard ESC Pop track).

 

[lilka]

But what if a song gets not only the diaspora votes, but also lots of votes from the locals?
Once it's first on televotes, on the current system, what else could be done to prove that it's liked by this and that too?
That's why a percentage system has to be implemented, rather than the ranking.

+1
There is only 1 million of Poles in the UK, and 63 millions of Brits. It is just IMPOSSIBLE to be 1st in televoting only with diaspora votes.

 

[Matt]

Sorry, but how is the Polish diaspora in Germany related to the German jury?

It isn't, that's the point. I'm merely pointing that accusing the Irish and British juries for being anti Polish is as absurd as the pretend claim I was making.

 

[lilka]

It isn't, that's the point. I'm merely pointing that accusing the Irish and British juries for being anti Polish is as absurd as the pretend claim I was making.

The sad truth though is that they ARE anti Polish, or at least seem to be.

 

[A-lister]

+1
There is only 1 million of Poles in the UK, and 63 millions of Brits. It is just IMPOSSIBLE to be 1st in televoting only with diaspora votes.

It's true that diaspora DO impact the televoting, because some diaspora groups have a tendency to mobilize during ESC, wheres the other viewers are not really mobilizing their votes but just vote more randomly for whatever they like.

However, it's true that you need some support by locals aswell to achieve success.

Also, Poland is NOT one of those countries where diaspora normally mobilized, quite the contrary. Poland could have easily been almost as successful as Turkey, Greece, Armenia, Russia, Serbia and some others during the 100% televoting years, because they have a big diaspora, but they never were. This was the first time in a very long time that there was a public support for a Polish entry, which imo means that there were many non- diaspora supporting it too. But it's true though that since this was a big hit in Poland and the internet, surely more diaspora than usually watched Eurovision and supported Poland. They finally had a song they could really back up.

 

[A-lister]

It isn't, that's the point. I'm merely pointing that accusing the Irish and British juries for being anti Polish is as absurd as the pretend claim I was making.

The problem is that they ARE, and it's connected to many things, mostly to the current political and media landscape in those two countries

 

[lilka]

The problem is that they ARE, and it's connected to many things, mostly to the current political and media landscape in those two countries

I totally agree, and I'd add a serious argument here, but since this is not the politics section of the forum, I'll keep it for myself...

 

[FoxOfShadows]

[MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION]
People in the UK voted for boobs. It wasn't because of the song. The juries didn't like the song or the performance so rated it down. I slightly agree with in one respect, that being that the juries probably marked it down to counteract televote. Is that right? No it's not. Would 100% televote be right? No, many countries would gain from block voting with bad songs. Which is why, the contest should go back to the old system of only rating the top 10. Would that suit you better?

 

[gustav]

+1
There is only 1 million of Poles in the UK, and 63 millions of Brits. It is just IMPOSSIBLE to be 1st in televoting only with diaspora votes.

It's possible to win the televoting with 1 vote.

 

[wyq614]

We have to solve the problem in a reasonable way. It's of no help when we talk about televoting we talk about diaspora, and when we talk about jury vote we always think of politics. In my opinion, if we have to keep the jury vote, then the problem may not be the existence of jury vote or whether it is 50%-50% or 30%-70% or something, the problem may be the calculate method. The current method only bases on rankings and to some extent, the jury's influence to the result may be inappropiately huge.

We know it is hard for an entry to climb a rank in televoting for you may have to gain up to thousands of votes more, but it is so easy to elevate a rank in jury vote cause it would be enough to persuade maybe three of the five juries.

I mean, maybe it will be better to create an index or a function or equation or something to combine the jury vote and televote in a better way, maybe it's much better if we give points according to points than giving points according to ranks. That's really a math problem, and I'm not good at math maybe nor English...

 

[FilipFromSweden]

Ehm? Austria won the televote, Netherlands was second in the televote... it's not as if the juries did anything in particular here, in fact Netherlands was higher in the televote than the jury vote

And that dreadful Spanish scream ballad deserved to flop, juries saving it is just telling what a dreadful dated taste they have

Bottom line is, juries are NOT needed, just check the televoting results

You are not seeing the important fact here, just because a jury did not change anything does not mean they did nothing.

 

[angry]

Ehm? Austria won the televote, Netherlands was second in the televote... it's not as if the juries did anything in particular here, in fact Netherlands was higher in the televote than the jury vote

And that dreadful Spanish scream ballad deserved to flop, juries saving it is just telling what a dreadful dated taste they have

Bottom line is, juries are NOT needed, just check the televoting results

I think no more than 5 votes is a good thing. But what worries me is how professional is the jury really.
imo it cant be that from the same country one rates a song superhigh and another rates the song superlow. That would have to do with personal taste, like the televoters do.

Here an example were the televoters are much more professional than their jury.

 

[Matt]

I think no more than 5 votes is a good thing. But what worries me is how professional is the jury really.
imo it cant be that from the same country one rates a song superhigh and another rates the song superlow. That would have to do with personal taste, like the televoters do.

If the jury votes are too similar, they're accused of cheating. If they're too far off then they are unprofessional. I guess they just can't win.

 

[angry]

If the jury votes are too similar, they're accused of cheating. If they're too far off then they are unprofessional. I guess they just can't win.

I was not talking about the Netherlands there, but I read it happend to Romenia, being rated the best and rated the worst.

But about the Netherlands I saw some strange things too, other than Malta not rating the top 3:
What I find hard to understand is f.e. the results of San Marino.
We got the 12 points in Semi One. But 4 days later we dropped 9 places, having 5 songs from the same semi one above us.
And more strange, Azerbadjan who got 6 points in the Semi One, but in the grand final (semi 1 + semi 2 + big 5) it got the 12 points.
And this only by jury, no televotes. Azerbadjan ended 22th

 

[A-lister]

[MENTION=4544]A-lister[/MENTION]
People in the UK voted for boobs. It wasn't because of the song. The juries didn't like the song or the performance so rated it down. I slightly agree with in one respect, that being that the juries probably marked it down to counteract televote. Is that right? No it's not. Would 100% televote be right? No, many countries would gain from block voting with bad songs. Which is why, the contest should go back to the old system of only rating the top 10. Would that suit you better?

Get a grip ok? There's lots of people that voted for the SONG. I voted for the SONG and I also found the performance brilliant. If people would just vote for boobs, how come the Irish silicone didn't manage to qualify then? I think it's a cheap excuse made by people who don't like the song or "get" the performance, but there's no point in trying to make it look as if all the ones who liked it are brainless and only voted for boobs. Then people voted for Conchita voted for a beard and a cause (which is partly true)

Bad songs is only your definition, it's not some universal truth. The old system or giving more powers to televoters (maybe not 100%, because there is an issue with the blind nationalist diaspora vote for sure, I don't deny that), would be the least EBU could do.