No Juries anymore ONLY TELEVOTING!

[FoxOfShadows]

Get a grip ok? There's lots of people that voted for the SONG. I voted for the SONG and I also found the performance brilliant. If people would just vote for boobs, how come the Irish silicone didn't manage to qualify then? I think it's a cheap excuse made by people who don't like the song or "get" the performance, but there's no point in trying to make it look as if all the ones who liked it are brainless and only voted for boobs. Then people voted for Conchita voted for a beard and a cause (which is partly true)

Bad songs is only your definition, it's not some universal truth. The old system or giving more powers to televoters (maybe not 100%, because there is an issue with the blind nationalist diaspora vote for sure, I don't deny that), would be the least EBU could do.

All the people I spoke to talked about Poland's boobs. If everybody liked the song then why (in the UK) isn't it charting and the UK's second most televoted country, The Netherlands is currently at number 5 in the charts. Is the song charting anywhere? I admit, some people may have voted for the song. But many many more voted for the boobs. Ireland din't qualify because the song was poor and people voting for Kasey's appearance were more likely to vote for Poland (since it had a larger focus on appearance) or Austria (for similar reasons)

Giving 100% power to televotes would help some bad songs. I'm not saying all songs in blocks are bad (I mean I loved Armenia and Sweden this year). What I'm saying is that bad songs would qualify. Take Russia this year. It is generally agreed to be a pretty poor song (I'm not saying everyone agrees, just most. In fact, I quite like it). Then why did it come top 10? It would have been even higher with 100% televote. The point is with 100% televote, countries undeserving of points would get them

 

[A-lister]

All the people I spoke to talked about Poland's boobs. If everybody liked the song then why (in the UK) isn't it charting and the UK's second most televoted country, The Netherlands is currently at number 5 in the charts. Is the song charting anywhere? I admit, some people may have voted for the song. But many many more voted for the boobs. Ireland din't qualify because the song was poor and people voting for Kasey's appearance were more likely to vote for Poland (since it had a larger focus on appearance) or Austria (for similar reasons)

Giving 100% power to televotes would help some bad songs. I'm not saying all songs in blocks are bad (I mean I loved Armenia and Sweden this year). What I'm saying is that bad songs would qualify. Take Russia this year. It is generally agreed to be a pretty poor song (I'm not saying everyone agrees, just most. In fact, I quite like it). Then why did it come top 10? It would have been even higher with 100% televote. The point is with 100% televote, countries undeserving of points would get them

I still don't believe for a second a song ends up top. 5 just because of "boobs", it's not as if this was the first time we've ever seen "boobs" in any performance in ESC or in music in general. People who hate the song just want to find something to "explain" the votes since they can't comprehend how others may have different taste, as if people can't genuinely like the song AND performance? It's funny though, because you sort of contradict yourself. You even point out that "boobs" didn't save the Irish entry, since (according to you) it wasn't a good song, so that must mean that the Polish one got some qualities afterall? (and not just "more boobs"). Otherwise had the song been just bad, then I doubt "boobs" would be enough to save it right?

You make it look as if the juries are the advocates of good taste. I mean how many dreadful wailing cliché ballads or mediocre dated middle-of-the-road songs without any character haven't they supported throughout these years now? Just because one song doesn't fit you, or the jury taste may be more on par with your own taste, doesn't mean that people who disagree with you are "wrong" and need to be schooled into why they like something or not. To me it's quite patronizing to rant about how fans of the Polish song only voted for "boobs". The song is a cool fusion of modern and folk, it's cheeky and the performance was ironic and tongue-in-cheek and well presented. If you only saw "boobs", then that's your interpretation, but alot of people saw and HEARD something more than that.

 

[Mlyn]

If we had 100% televoting, the Eurovision would become as bad as in the early 00' and Italy would always gave Romania the 12 and Austria all its big points to several Balkan countries. if we had 100% some countries would always punish each other

I think we need the 50/50 vote but only for the Top 10 and not for the Top 26. Juries shouldn't be able to erade public votes completely and this means they shouldn't be able to erase the big points from televotes.

 

[A-lister]

If we had 100% televoting, the Eurovision would become as bad as in the early 00' and Italy would always gave Romania the 12 and Austria all its big points to several Balkan countries. if we had 100% some countries would always punish each other

I think we need the 50/50 vote but only for the Top 10 and not for the Top 26. Juries shouldn't be able to erade public votes completely and this means they shouldn't be able to erase the big points from televotes.

Well, the paradox here is that musically (imo atleast) '04-'09 were some of the best, most diverse and refreshing ESC years ever, even though there were obvious problems with the diaspora voting.

I'd support the juries if they'd vote professionally, but a bunch of biased people who are very close minded musically and unfortunately also vote with a country bias, is hardly something ESC needs. If EBU can shake some life into the grandmas of the juries (the German juries are one of the few jury groups proven to be sorta in touch), and also atleast go back to the previous voting system, I guess it could turn out fine. As things are going now, it's just dreadful though. We had a complete English language top. 10 with ONLY safe songs in western style, is that really all ESC should have to offer?

 

[FoxOfShadows]

I still don't believe for a second a song ends up top. 5 just because of "boobs", it's not as if this was the first time we've ever seen "boobs" in any performance in ESC or in music in general. People who hate the song just want to find something to "explain" the votes since they can't comprehend how others may have different taste, as if people can't genuinely like the song AND performance? It's funny though, because you sort of contradict yourself. You even point out that "boobs" didn't save the Irish entry, since (according to you) it wasn't a good song, so that must mean that the Polish one got some qualities afterall? (and not just "more boobs"). Otherwise had the song been just bad, then I doubt "boobs" would be enough to save it right?

You make it look as if the juries are the advocates of good taste. I mean how many dreadful wailing cliché ballads or mediocre dated middle-of-the-road songs without any character haven't they supported throughout these years now? Just because one song doesn't fit you, or the jury taste may be more on par with your own taste, doesn't mean that people who disagree with you are "wrong" and need to be schooled into why they like something or not. To me it's quite patronizing to rant about how fans of the Polish song only voted for "boobs". The song is a cool fusion of modern and folk, it's cheeky and the performance was ironic and tongue-in-cheek and well presented. If you only saw "boobs", then that's your interpretation, but alot of people saw and HEARD something more than that.

Explain the music charts then. If people like the song enough for it to come top 5 in televoting, why has it been so poor on iTunes etc. Why do you think the video on youtube has so many views compared to other songs. It's because of appearance. I can understand people having other tastes and I'm fine with you and other people enjoying this song. It doesn't matter to me if you like it or not. What I'm saying is that everyone here in the UK only talk about the boobs in Poland's entry. Not the music.

You do know that the juries seriously hindered my favourite song this year. I don't support the juries to the extreme like you do against them. They rated Albania 2012 and Russia 2013 high. I hate both of the songs. But they are necessary. They've also ruined many good Bulgarian songs. I find it amusing how you blame me for having my own opinion and then say that the juries mark up "wailing cliché ballads" and "dated middle-of-the-road songs". Some people will like these songs. Fans of the Polish song, like yourself, voted for the song and I'm fine with that. But do you honestly think there were enough fans of the SONG in the UK and other countries to put it top 5 in televoting and for it to barely scrape any music charts?

 

[A-lister]

Explain the music charts then. If people like the song enough for it to come top 5 in televoting, why has it been so poor on iTunes etc. Why do you think the video on youtube has so many views compared to other songs. It's because of appearance. I can understand people having other tastes and I'm fine with you and other people enjoying this song. It doesn't matter to me if you like it or not. What I'm saying is that everyone here in the UK only talk about the boobs in Poland's entry. Not the music.

You do know that the juries seriously hindered my favourite song this year. I don't support the juries to the extreme like you do against them. They rated Albania 2012 and Russia 2013 high. I hate both of the songs. But they are necessary. They've also ruined many good Bulgarian songs. I find it amusing how you blame me for having my own opinion and then say that the juries mark up "wailing cliché ballads" and "dated middle-of-the-road songs". Some people will like these songs. Fans of the Polish song, like yourself, voted for the song and I'm fine with that. But do you honestly think there were enough fans of the SONG in the UK and other countries to put it top 5 in televoting and for it to barely scrape any music charts?

One thing I've come to learn, is that people (as in "the masses") are very responsive to hype and the current and generally fickle when it comes to opinions. I see people who didn't care too much about the Austrian entry suddenly raving about it because it won and because of the hype. The "loosers" are quickly forgotten by the masses, and soon the "winners" will be too. This is very common. I think the charts are mostly a reflection of the impact a good position has on the general short-term-memory of the "masses". I personally don't know many people that buy music at all tbh. I do know people that liked the Polish entry though, and some that disliked it, but it's not as if it only gained televotes due to "boobs". That's a silly statement because why didn't Ireland gain lots of support then? And why is no one pointing out that tired Spanish entry where the cleavage shown was the only "interesting" part of those 3 minutes? No one is even mentioning the latter two, but there were just as much boobs and the sad thing was that in those cases it wasn't even meant to be ironic But if boobs were all there was to it, then how come those weren't that popular with the viewers then? My guess is the Polish song had character, it was something different from the rest, and not just because of the "boobs". Poland didn't invent "boobs", in fact it was very harmless and cheeky compared to your everyday pop video where far more skin and sexualized performances are being showed.

 

[FoxOfShadows]

One thing I've come to learn, is that people (as in "the masses") are very responsive to hype and the current and generally fickle when it comes to opinions. I see people who didn't care too much about the Austrian entry suddenly raving about it because it won and because of the hype. The "loosers" are quickly forgotten by the masses, and soon the "winners" will be too. This is very common. I think the charts are mostly a reflection of the impact a good position has on the general short-term-memory of the "masses". I personally don't know many people that buy music at all tbh. I do know people that liked the Polish entry though, and some that disliked it, but it's not as if it only gained televotes due to "boobs". That's a silly statement because why didn't Ireland gain lots of support then? And why is no one pointing out that tired Spanish entry where the cleavage shown was the only "interesting" part of those 3 minutes? No one is even mentioning the latter two, but there were just as much boobs and the sad thing was that in those cases it wasn't even meant to be ironic But if boobs where all there was to it, then how come those weren't that popular with the viewers then? My guess is the Polish song had character, it was something different from the rest, and not just because of the "boobs".

Then why are songs like "Hunter of Stars" and "Cliche Love Song" high up in the charts. Even Azerbaijan and France are higher over Europe. Ireland were overshadowed by Poland (and in fact televoters would have put Ireland through), Once again you show YOUR opinion by criticising the Spanish song. There were nowhere near as many boobs in these two songs. Neither had huge close ups of breasts. And at least Ruth could sing. I repeat myself, not all of the televotes for Poland came from boobs. Some will have been from genuinely liking the song and some will have been Polish diaspora. Just most of the votes were for the boobs

 

[A-lister]

Then why are songs like "Hunter of Stars" and "Cliche Love Song" high up in the charts. Even Azerbaijan and France are higher over Europe. Ireland were overshadowed by Poland (and in fact televoters would have put Ireland through), Once again you show YOUR opinion by criticising the Spanish song. There were nowhere near as many boobs in these two songs. Neither had huge close ups of breasts. And at least Ruth could sing. I repeat myself, not all of the televotes for Poland came from boobs. Some will have been from genuinely liking the song and some will have been Polish diaspora. Just most of the votes were for the boobs

I rarely use charts as a proof of anything, in a week from now there will be barely any ESC songs left in the charts anyways. ESC songs seldom have any major impact on charts. Only a few times ESC actually creates hits these days.

You say I use my opinion as part of my argumentation? We all do to some extent, and your argument is based on that too so I mean the one who is going on about "boobs" saving an entry, as a form of derogatory argument against people who may not share your opinion on the song, is actually you. I was merely pointing out Ireland and Spain because they also showed much cleavage, not that I care because I'm no prude, but if you are going to use "boobs" as an argument then point out all boobs then . You're just unwilling to admit that there might be other reasons for why people liked the song, like the fact that it was one of the few songs with folk elements, that it was different than most entries, it had a colorful and fun performance with costumes and was memorable (not just because of boobs). It's simply not fair to make it look as if it got votes ONLY because of boobs, that's just a silly argument by someone who can't come up with a better explanation because you don't see the qualities in this song/performance that maybe others did

What do you mean with "at least Ruth could sing". So could Cleo too (and the juries know this very well, so that's not what was judged here) Yes, Cleo may not be a big wailer, but she clearly can sing and it's not even the type of song that would fit with a big belting vocal anyways

 

[FoxOfShadows]

I rarely use charts as a proof of anything, in a week from now there will be barely any ESC songs left in the charts anyways. ESC songs seldom have any major impact on charts. Only a few times ESC actually creates hits these days.

You say I use my opinion as part of my argumentation? We all do to some extent, and your argument is based on that too so I mean the one who is going on about "boobs" saving an entry, as a form of derogatory argument against people who may not share your opinion on the song, is actually you. I was merely pointing out Ireland and Spain because they also showed much cleavage, not that I care because I'm no prude, but if you are going to use "boobs" as an argument then point out all boobs then . You're just unwilling to admit that there might be other reasons for why people liked the song, like the fact that it was one of the few songs with folk elements, that it was different than most entries, it had a colorful and fun performance with costumes and was memorable (not just because of boobs). It's simply not fair to make it look as if it got votes ONLY because of boobs, that's just a silly argument by someone who can't come up with a better explanation because you don't see the qualities in this song/performance that maybe others did

What do you mean with "at least Ruth could sing". So could Cleo too (and the juries know this very well, so that's not what was judged here) Yes, Cleo may not be a big wailer, but she clearly can sing and it's not even the type of song that would fit with a big belting vocal anyways

You keep failing to realise that I am not arguing about the song. I honestly don't care if you like it or not. I'm just trying to tell you that the success of the entry in the televote isn't down to people liking the song. All the evidence shows that appearance played a massive role in gaining votes for Poland. On expressing personal opinions, I was just stating how hypocritical you are being since a few posts back (and now) you were going about my opinion of the song changing my view of the results. It's stupid to say that any performance with boobs should do well as you know that none had the massive amount of focus that Poland did. I've repeated multiple times that the song will have got votes from people not interested about the boobs and just like the song. But just by looking at comments on the video and from other places, it's a pretty safe assumption that people voting for boobs outweighed those who liked the song

I was comparing Ruth to Kasey there. I realise how you could get confused. Sorry about that. Cleo could indeed sing quite well and the juries should have placed the song higher for that

 

[JackBauer]

Everybody is talking about Poland and the UK and Ireland but no one about Armenia and Belgium.

Sure, the contest had a very decent lever this year and the semis increased the level quality of the final. Therefore, i' not really astonished to see let's say Finland, Switzerland, Greece and Montenegro going from top 5 to bottom since a case can be make for each jury to have a different ranking of this songs. Taste differs of course, and you may simply like another song better.

But i really do believe anyone who put Armenia, Sweden, the Netherlands 25th in their ranking really didn't see the same contest as i did. It s very unlikely to find France, Slovenia, Poland, San Marino and half of the others songs all better than those 3 if you ask me.

And since they knew Armenia was going to top the Belgium Televote, i find it very strange to be honest

 

[A-lister]

You keep failing to realise that I am not arguing about the song. I honestly don't care if you like it or not. I'm just trying to tell you that the success of the entry in the televote isn't down to people liking the song. All the evidence shows that appearance played a massive role in gaining votes for Poland. On expressing personal opinions, I was just stating how hypocritical you are being since a few posts back (and now) you were going about my opinion of the song changing my view of the results. It's stupid to say that any performance with boobs should do well as you know that none had the massive amount of focus that Poland did. I've repeated multiple times that the song will have got votes from people not interested about the boobs and just like the song. But just by looking at comments on the video and from other places, it's a pretty safe assumption that people voting for boobs outweighed those who liked the song

I was comparing Ruth to Kasey there. I realise how you could get confused. Sorry about that. Cleo could indeed sing quite well and the juries should have placed the song higher for that

And again you state it as a fact, I guess we just have to disagree on this and I still find it just a "weak" argument. As I said, if it was just about the boobs, then it's odd how the others showing boobs weren't that popular? I just think people who dislike the song won't give its public success any credit, so they use the "boobs" argument as a sort of derogatory explanation. You talk about boobs, simply ignoring the whole package (song, style, vocals, dance, costumes). Trust me, if it weren't for the rest, they wouldn't have made it into the top. 5 with only boobs.

Fair enough, I thought you refereed to Cleo, which didn't do a bad job at all.

 

[A-lister]

Everybody is talking about Poland and the UK and Ireland but no one about Armenia and Belgium.

Sure, the contest had a very decent lever this year and the semis increased the level quality of the final. Therefore, i' not really astonished to see let's say Finland, Switzerland, Greece and Montenegro going from top 5 to bottom since a case can be make for each jury to have a different ranking of this songs. Taste differs of course, and you may simply like another song better.

But i really do believe anyone who put Armenia, Sweden, the Netherlands 25th in their ranking really didn't see the same contest as i did. It s very unlikely to find France, Slovenia, Poland, San Marino and half of the others songs all better than those 3 if you ask me.

And since they knew Armenia was going to top the Belgium Televote, i find it very strange to be honest

I personally don't like the Armenian song, I find it boring and overrated, however I agree that the Belgian juries prob did something similar to Armenia as the UK/IE/IS/NL/AT juries did to PL. This current ranking system is simply giving the juries too much power and unfortunate they use it not to judge the music even

 

[FoxOfShadows]

And again you state it as a fact, I guess we just have to disagree on this and I still find it just a "weak" argument. As I said, if it was just about the boobs, then it's odd how the others showing boobs weren't that popular? I just think people who dislike the song won't give its public success any credit, so they use the "boobs" argument as a sort of derogatory explanation. You talk about boobs, simply ignoring the whole package (song, style, vocals, dance, costumes). Trust me, if it weren't for the rest, they wouldn't have made it into the top. 5 with only boobs.

Fair enough, I thought you refereed to Cleo, which didn't do a bad job at all.

I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree. We're just repeating ourselves and it's obvious no one is going to change. I do agree they wouldn't have made it top 5 with just boobs. The song has actually grown on me and it is quite catchy. I just wouldn't expect top 10 without the boobs. Anyway, let's finish this here

 

[JackBauer]

To settle the Now famous Polish debate, i think this list prove my point quite easily.

*Germany 4
*Italy 6
*Montenegro 7
*Belarus 8
*Ukraine 8
*Slovenia 10
*Azerbaijan 11
Armenia 11
*Moldova 12
*Macedonia 12
*France 15
*Hungary 15
*Spain 15
*Greece 17
*Sweden 17
*Denmark 18
*Israel 18
*Malta 18
*Switzerland 18
*Norway 19
*Albania 23
*Iceland 23
*Portugal 23
*Romania 23
*San Marino 23
*Austria 24
*Finland 24
*Latvia 24
*Lithuania 24
*Russia 24
*Belgium 25
*Netherlands 25
*United Kingdom 25
*Estonia 26
*Republic of Ireland 26
​

So basically 15 countries out of 35 juries had Poland in their bottom 5. Countries from Western Europe, Balkans, Baltics, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe.

25 out of 35 had it in their bottom 10, again from every corner of Europe.

Out of the ten countries who ranked it on the left side of their scoreboard, 4 still wouldn't give it any points in the eurovision system.

Out of the 6 who would give it points, only one had it in their top 5. 3 of them were neighbors and one was the jury of the biggest boobs lover country in the world, yes they lived in Rome.

So i personally think the list speak for itself it was general common opinion across the music experts in Europe that the song wasn't good enough, maybe jury are old fashioned and out of date but the thing is the marks are extremely low almost everywhere and show a real dislike of the song couple to the fact they recognize little quality in it. This is not just a western conspiracy.

 

[wyq614]

Answer these two questions:

1 - Should Eurovision be taken seriously?? We always see some countries complaining that they have no friends, can't benefit from political voting or block voting, and always cannot qualify for the final and if did, were ranked in last places. We should ask did these countries take Eurovision seriously and choose the right artists and right songs to the contest? Czech is a good example, they took part in 2007, 2008 and after in 2009 they got nul points they furiously withdraw and never returned, but did they send at least a decent song to Eurovision that was worth a better placing? There are other countries selecting so-so songs every year and complain after the contest. It has been proved that if you send bad songs, televote cannot save you in most cases (except Russian 2010), but juries can (for example Ukraine 2012), I don't know why juries like some countries so much (Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden etc)

2 (which is the more important) - Should Eurovision allow diversity, or only prefer Eurovision-ish song? This has become a question for the juries. In 2007 when there was no jury voting, Stoyan and Elitsa representing Bulgaria qualified and got a very good ranking, unfortunately in 2013, when they would qualify again with 100% televoting but jury gave them "death penalty" and they have to leave, I strongly believe that if there were jury voting in 2007, Bulgaria would by no means qualify as their entry would be definitely "killed" by juries. Another example is 2013 Montenegro, which with 100% televoting would qualify too. Then I ask: Should juries be in charge of underrate and eliminate all the songs that do not belong to some kind of Eurovision style? (e.g, folk songs, even non-English songs) If the answer is yes, I prefer say goodbye to jury votes, because jury votes are supposed to make the contest more fair and professional, not to suppress creative minds by only encouraging the contestants to sing SOME types of songs. We see juries turning from referees to rulers and is becoming "The Kings of Eurovision".

It has proved that jury votes cannot avoid block voting and political voting, but it has also proved that a very good song is really overwhelming and invincible, no matter which country it came from, such as Norway 2009 and Malta 2005 (can you imagine large number of countries regardless of their positions giving Malta plenty of points to make it came second, and it was only televotes?)

I think EBU has to make a serious discussion about the two questions, and then make decisions about the existence of jury voting.

 

[wyq614]

Ah, further more, is it fair that a country's 10th can get a precious one point, and 11th get nothing at all? Should points be completely depend on rankings? We need to take the Azerbaijani question seriously: If an entry get 8th in jury voting and 21st in televoting, and then instead of getting a place between the two, they got 22nd, then is it statistically possible for an entry that get 10th in jury voting and 23rd in televoting (both worse than Azerbaijan), but the combined rank is even better than Azerbaijan? Is this fair after all?

 

[LalehForWD]

Answer these two questions:

1 - Should Eurovision be taken seriously?? We always see some countries complaining that they have no friends, can't benefit from political voting or block voting, and always cannot qualify for the final and if did, were ranked in last places. We should ask did these countries take Eurovision seriously and choose the right artists and right songs to the contest? Czech is a good example, they took part in 2007, 2008 and after in 2009 they got nul points they furiously withdraw and never returned, but did they send at least a decent song to Eurovision that was worth a better placing? There are other countries selecting so-so songs every year and complain after the contest. It has been proved that if you send bad songs, televote cannot save you in most cases (except Russian 2010), but juries can (for example Ukraine 2012), I don't know why juries like some countries so much (Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden etc)

2 (which is the more important) - Should Eurovision allow diversity, or only prefer Eurovision-ish song? This has become a question for the juries. In 2007 when there was no jury voting, Stoyan and Elitsa representing Bulgaria qualified and got a very good ranking, unfortunately in 2013, when they would qualify again with 100% televoting but jury gave them "death penalty" and they have to leave, I strongly believe that if there were jury voting in 2007, Bulgaria would by no means qualify as their entry would be definitely "killed" by juries. Another example is 2013 Montenegro, which with 100% televoting would qualify too. Then I ask: Should juries be in charge of underrate and eliminate all the songs that do not belong to some kind of Eurovision style? (e.g, folk songs, even non-English songs) If the answer is yes, I prefer say goodbye to jury votes, because jury votes are supposed to make the contest more fair and professional, not to suppress creative minds by only encouraging the contestants to sing SOME types of songs. We see juries turning from referees to rulers and is becoming "The Kings of Eurovision".

It has proved that jury votes cannot avoid block voting and political voting, but it has also proved that a very good song is really overwhelming and invincible, no matter which country it came from, such as Norway 2009 and Malta 2005 (can you imagine large number of countries regardless of their positions giving Malta plenty of points to make it came second, and it was only televotes?)

I think EBU has to make a serious discussion about the two questions, and then make decisions about the existence of jury voting.

1) Short answer: No. Butthurts need to understand this is just for fun and there are no easy ways to success. Cheaters obviously make fools of themselves and patriots really are completely clueless what it's all about.

2) Short answer: Yes. The Netherlands just proved that a sincere true-to-genre song can be successful even if it is not contemporary or Eurovision-ish. Stoyan and Elitsa 2007 were rather outstanding while Stoyan and Elitsa 2013 were not I think.

The juries are there to counteract political or/and patriotic voting, that is voting that abuse the contest. The elitist contra public "conflict" is very much a butthurt construction IMO.

 

[A-lister]

To settle the Now famous Polish debate, i think this list prove my point quite easily.

*Germany 4
*Italy 6
*Montenegro 7
*Belarus 8
*Ukraine 8
*Slovenia 10
*Azerbaijan 11
Armenia 11
*Moldova 12
*Macedonia 12
*France 15
*Hungary 15
*Spain 15
*Greece 17
*Sweden 17
*Denmark 18
*Israel 18
*Malta 18
*Switzerland 18
*Norway 19
*Albania 23
*Iceland 23
*Portugal 23
*Romania 23
*San Marino 23
*Austria 24
*Finland 24
*Latvia 24
*Lithuania 24
*Russia 24
*Belgium 25
*Netherlands 25
*United Kingdom 25
*Estonia 26
*Republic of Ireland 26
​

So basically 15 countries out of 35 juries had Poland in their bottom 5. Countries from Western Europe, Balkans, Baltics, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe.

25 out of 35 had it in their bottom 10, again from every corner of Europe.

Out of the ten countries who ranked it on the left side of their scoreboard, 4 still wouldn't give it any points in the eurovision system.

Out of the 6 who would give it points, only one had it in their top 5. 3 of them were neighbors and one was the jury of the biggest boobs lover country in the world, yes they lived in Rome.

So i personally think the list speak for itself it was general common opinion across the music experts in Europe that the song wasn't good enough, maybe jury are old fashioned and out of date but the thing is the marks are extremely low almost everywhere and show a real dislike of the song couple to the fact they recognize little quality in it. This is not just a western conspiracy.

This doesn't prove anything

I never expected the juries to love the Polish entry or anything, quite the contrary I was afraid they'd even block Poland from the final, however the optimist in me didn't expect political voting atleast.

Your list says very little, you have to compare juries' votes in countries where Poland ended up in the top. 3 of televoting. In the case of Ireland, UK and a couple of others it wasn't a judgement of music or anything, it was a way of sabotaging the votes.

Please don't call the juries "experts", in Sweden we had freaking Oscar Zia in the jury ...

 

[JackBauer]

To settle the Now famous Polish debate, i think this list prove my point quite easily.

*Germany 4
*Italy 6
*Montenegro 7
*Belarus 8
*Ukraine 8
*Slovenia 10
*Azerbaijan 11
Armenia 11
*Moldova 12
*Macedonia 12
*France 15
*Hungary 15
*Spain 15
*Greece 17
*Sweden 17
*Denmark 18
*Israel 18
*Malta 18
*Switzerland 18
*Norway 19
*Albania 23
*Iceland 23
*Portugal 23
*Romania 23
*San Marino 23
*Austria 24
*Finland 24
*Latvia 24
*Lithuania 24
*Russia 24
*Belgium 25
*Netherlands 25
*United Kingdom 25
*Estonia 26
*Republic of Ireland 26
​

So basically 15 countries out of 35 juries had Poland in their bottom 5. Countries from Western Europe, Balkans, Baltics, Scandinavia, Eastern Europe.

25 out of 35 had it in their bottom 10, again from every corner of Europe.

Out of the ten countries who ranked it on the left side of their scoreboard, 4 still wouldn't give it any points in the eurovision system.

Out of the 6 who would give it points, only one had it in their top 5. 3 of them were neighbors and one was the jury of the biggest boobs lover country in the world, yes they lived in Rome.

So i personally think the list speak for itself it was general common opinion across the music experts in Europe that the song wasn't good enough, maybe jury are old fashioned and out of date but the thing is the marks are extremely low almost everywhere and show a real dislike of the song couple to the fact they recognize little quality in it. This is not just a western conspiracy.

This doesn't prove anything

I never expected the juries to love the Polish entry or anything, quite the contrary I was afraid they'd even block Poland from the final, however the optimist in me didn't expect political voting atleast.

Your list says very little, you have to compare juries' votes in countries where Poland ended up in the top. 3 of televoting. In the case of Ireland, UK and a couple of others it wasn't a judgement of music or anything, it was a way of sabotaging the votes.

Please don't call the juries "experts", in Sweden we had freaking Oscar Zia in the jury ...

But juries votes were counted before the televotes. And besides Germany and Ireland, there was absolutely no guarantee that Poland would be Top 5 in any other country.

It would be like France or Spain getting a surprising 170 points from televoting one year and having Belgium and Portugal juries ranking us very low.

How can you accuse Austria, Belgium, Russia and the UK of anything when Poland recent record has been more than dreadful and there was absolutely no points guaranteed for them from televoting.


Besides, the list does prove a point for me. To me it feels like you are someone from China not getting his project approve by a board company and complaining about racism or politics because he was trashed by Japan, South Korea and Vietnam members. But the truth is he was equally strongly rejected by people from Venezuela, Mexico, Zambia, Greece and Jordan.

It s obvious you cannot speak of politics or racism into play when truly unbiased people reject you as bad as people who may have some history with you.

 

[A-lister]

^
I'd say we stop this right here and now, you mix things into the discussion which I didn't even mention so you haven't really paid attention to my posts anyhow so it's kinda pointless to argue then.