Germany GERMANY 2024 - Isaak - Always on the Run

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[Mainshow]

With Marie we would at least get a song in German and a rare representative of genre that a lot of people in Germany hate, but also love very much.

Now we only have the most generic song in English. Again.

This.
Marie would also finish bottom 5 probably but dunno, Galant would be nice too - our line-up wasn't great. Pretty decent, yes.. but you can't get a "pretty decent" result in Eurovision with such entries.

 

[Mainshow]

You’re right, there has been an artificial odds hype around Ryk. It was a chance for top 20 but I don’t think THAT strong jury support for top 10 would haben been very realistic. Well possible but not a safe bet.

Anyway, the biggest two problems are the NF jury and in general the rigged/ fishy voting system. The juries seem to vote purely on personal taste, maybe radio friendliness, I don’t know? At least they are not voting based on what is the song with the best chances. I mean last year they voted for that Will Church song?!? For two years now the jury voting in general is all over the place. The jury result therefore is always quite close. So please, if you want juries then make some changes, get people that make more sense. I don’t know, just look at other countries and take some notes.

And second, it’s a joke that you transfer the jury points into a 1-12 system. It’s actually really an active way of rigging the outcome! And of course it’s totally crazy to leave the lines open until the jury voting has been announced. Well good for NDR/ ARD to get some additional money from the calls but come on… In my opinion Isaak was only 1st in the televoting ranking due to that fact. It was quite pointless now to vote for Ryk now for example.

I think that Ryk had a slight chance to escape the Bottom 5 but Top 10/15? With that performance?
Betting odds in mid-February (when we haven't even heard half of this year's entries) aren't as "great" as 8 international juries consisting of the same pop artists/producers like they'll also be made of in May to predict the results in May, imo.
Of course, individual jurors might be voting differently - it really depends on the competition and the people's tastes in music.. but as you've pointed out, juries voted on their personal taste... but they also do so in May - and Ryk is no "Arcade" or even 2023 - it's too complex, special, demanding for a ballad to fully attract pop producers and artists - especially when his performance isn't captivating and he's partly mumbling the words.

The 1-12 system for the jury points were fine, though. I mean, you get that 37 times in May as well since each jury will only award 12 points to their combinded favourite - it doesn't matter how often they reached #1 with the individual jurors.

Leaving the lines open was absolutely horrible (I was told it was the same last year but I can't remember, thb.)

 

[HarryUK]

This.
Marie would also finish bottom 5 probably but dunno, Galant would be nice too - our line-up wasn't great. Pretty decent, yes.. but you can't get a "pretty decent" result in Eurovision with such entries.

If the topless men had gone to Malmö with her she'd have picked up the gay vote left right and centre

 

[Bmbriga]

This.
Marie would also finish bottom 5 probably but dunno, Galant would be nice too - our line-up wasn't great. Pretty decent, yes.. but you can't get a "pretty decent" result in Eurovision with such entries.

Although, I wouldn't write Isaak off just yet. Looking at jury last year- Keđo, Albina, Tik-Tok author, another pop composer... I can totally see them voting for this song. I can see Kađo sing it. It's way better that his Angels and Demons English attempt.

 

[Mainshow]

I don't like our entry but it's great to see that he's already quite successful/gaining momentum:

YouTube trends: #2 and #3
Spotify: #48
Spotify Viral 50 Germany: #3
iTunes: #1

source: https://esc-kompakt.de/das-deutsche...he-run-die-itunes-spotify-und-youtube-charts/

 

[aef]

I think that Ryk had a slight chance to escape the Bottom 5 but Top 10/15? With that performance?
Betting odds in mid-February (when we haven't even heard half of this year's entries) aren't as "great" as 8 international juries consisting of the same pop artists/producers like they'll also be made of in May to predict the results in May, imo.
Of course, individual jurors might be voting differently - it really depends on the competition and the people's tastes in music.. but as you've pointed out, juries voted on their personal taste... but they also do so in May - and Ryk is no "Arcade" or even 2023 - it's too complex, special, demanding for a ballad to fully attract pop producers and artists - especially when his performance isn't captivating and he's partly mumbling the words.

The 1-12 system for the jury points were fine, though. I mean, you get that 37 times in May as well since each jury will only award 12 points to their combinded favourite - it doesn't matter how often they reached #1 with the individual jurors.

Leaving the lines open was absolutely horrible (I was told it was the same last year but I can't remember, thb.)

I was not talking about the juries giving their 1-12 points, I was talking about the fact that the whole jury result was then transferred into a 1-12 points ranking.

 

[I bims]

The juries seem to vote purely on personal taste, maybe radio friendliness, I don’t know? At least they are not voting based on what is the song with the best chances.

Does the jury vote that much different in May though? They vote for their personal favs and factor in political voting. And I honestly still think Will Church may have been the better choice actually, since he was 1st with almost every jury. He might have gotten points by the jury in May too. Same could happen with Isaak.
We don't have many instances to compare to get to a clear conclusion how representative the jury in the NF really is imo. This year will be a good opportunity to see how it goes.

We haven't used the international jury for very long, first time in 2018 and that did work well and was representative of the jury voting behaviour in the Grand Final. In 2013 we had a national jury and that vote was won by Blitzkids mvt. not Cascada.

Then 2019 was a big flop again but we have to keep in mind that they completely changed and destroyed the staging of the S!sters, they went from a floating rotating stage to nothing, so of course it wasn't going to appeal to anyone anymore.
Then 2020 - 2021 were internal selections and we don't know enough about the circumstances. 2021 they said Jendrik got fantastic scores by the jury... (tbh I think they picked him cause "Think About Things" was a viral sensation at the time and they thought they had the german version of that on their hands).

2022 there was no international jury (and the selection was so bad, you only could pick who would be last place and nothing else).

And well 2023... we didn't pick the jury winner that time, we went with the established band that flopped the juryvote in the NF and they also flopped the juryvote in the final as well.

 

[Mainshow]

I was not talking about the juries giving their 1-12 points, I was talking about the fact that the whole jury result was then transferred into a 1-12 points ranking.

Ah, I see!

I would have preferred last year's voting system but dunno, I think that they wanted to mirror the amount of points/the way a country would also be giving their points in May. That's why I can understand why they did it and I don't think it was unfair (just unnecessary). In May, the juries will give 12-1 points as well as the televoters of one single country.
I guess that's what they were trying to achieve.
got the same system and apparently, will do the same.

 

[cassio]

i like his voice 8 pts

 

[mauve]

His NDR hate videos are so iconic at this point hahaha.

Oh Wow. Finally managed to watch this video. Especially interesting to see how he reveals the problematic matter with the percentages (from about 5:40). Seeing this clearly, you see how some acts (Bodine and Ryk especially) were robbed of a possible victory.

 

[I bims]

Oh Wow. Finally managed to watch this video. Especially interesting to see how he reveals the problematic matter with the percentages (from about 5:40). Seeing this clearly, you see how some acts (Bodine and Ryk especially) were robbed of a possible victory.

Yeah, to me it was clear from the start but I was in favour of that system cause I thought that Ryk was winning the jury, therefore it would all favour him in the end That clearly backfired.

I didn't expect Marie to flop so hard with the televote, I was afraid if we would've had the system from last year Marie would win like LotL. Or worse, Max. Don't know what to think of that system currently. I guess I prefer the 2023 system, since the votes still matter more.

 

[Realest]

I dont know him, but his Videos was recommended for me today. He got most things right, but I disagree that Isaak is an incredible Singer with an incredible Voice that could win Eurovision with the right Voice. For me, hes exchangable and pretty standard and doesnt have charisma, character, personality, stagepresence, uniqueness and any superstar-qualities. He could sing that the best Song worldwide of all time and still wouldnt flash anyone. Nofront.

 

[Jupiter]

We honestly were lucky at least that Isaak won the jury quite decisively, and the ridiculousness "only" affected places 2-5. Imagine this (with random names as the top 4):

Jury points:

Max 60 -> 12
Ryk 60 -> 10
Bodine 59 -> 8
Galant 58 -> 6

Basically a tie, but resulting in Bodine and Galant basically having no shot.
And now, that's the tele:

Galant 50% -> 12
Bodine 40% -> 10
Max 2% -> 8
Ryk 1.9% -> 6

Overall:
Max: 20
Galant: 18
Bodine: 18
Ryk: 16

Granted, these are very specific numbers, but this System is wild. The issue here is also majorily tied to tele not being proportional, but no proportional televote can co-exist with that Jury point System anyway.

Honestly, last years system was muuuuuch better. But international juries need to go (try national or ESC fan panels even instead IMO), televote needs to be proportional, and televote needs to close before Jury results. And all of these feel like bloody no-brainers

 

[Storm]

The juries seem to vote purely on personal taste, maybe radio friendliness, I don’t know? At least they are not voting based on what is the song with the best chances. I mean last year they voted for that Will Church song?!? For two years now the jury voting in general is all over the place. The jury result therefore is always quite close. So please, if you want juries then make some changes, get people that make more sense. I don’t know, just look at other countries and take some notes.

I don't know about this year, they haven't released any info on the NF yet (and they probably won't? Do we need Ikke threatening a lawsuit again for them to be transparent??), but last year they made a point of inviting previous ESC jurors or artists on the international juries. Like last year's Austrian jury for example consisted of

Cesar Sampson: act 2018
PAENDA: act 2019
Sasha Saedi: juror 2017
Elly V: juror 2017
Peter Pansky: juror 2016

So to simulate the Eurovision jury basically, because I guess this is exactly how the line-up of the Austrian jury could theoretically look like in May (except for the fact that they would probably use new people ofc).
However, apparently they got Cesar Sampson again this year? And who knows, maybe the others too? That would be a bit too much influence lmao

I think the main issue is that there's not enough juries and not enough acts to properly recreate the jury thing. Not enough juries means one or two outliers have a much bigger influence than they would have in a vote with 40 juries. And obviously also only a few songs to rank, that can change the dynamics too. Last year's NF was full of televote stuff for example, so not a huge shock Will Church slayed it - but that doesn't make him a big fav against other quality jury songs... And a middle of the round song is still 3rd on a jurors ballot? while it would be in dead zone #14-15 in May

I don't think the juries are asked to vote for ESC potential. That would something like the Fan panel from 2018/19 indeed, and I think I would prefer it tbh.

Honestly, last years system was muuuuuch better. But international juries need to go (try national or ESC fan panels even instead IMO), televote needs to be proportional, and televote needs to close before Jury results. And all of these feel like bloody no-brainers

I find it astonishing how the NDR keeps changing the rules and not learn anything. Like bringing back the radio vote in 2022 when it didn't work in 2013 and surprise surprise it did not work in 2022 either. And what this year's rule change meant in combination with leaving the lines open was basically the super final thing that they also didn't want to do anymore, you know the Elaiza vs Unheilig situation by letting people vote between a Top 2, and yet they sort of recreated that again.

 

[aef]

I don’t know what else to add when talking about the NF juries, it just feels like these are results we wouldn’t get at the actual Eurovision with the actual juries…

 

[I bims]

I don’t know what else to add when talking about the NF juries, it just feels like these are results we wouldn’t get at the actual Eurovision with the actual juries…

Really? The Eurovision jury is notoriously making extremely weird choices and usually rewarding bland english pop songs. 2018 has to be the best example for that. Cesar winning the jury and Jessica Mauboy getting 90 points was insanity.

 

[Jupiter]

I find it astonishing how the NDR keeps changing the rules and not learn anything. Like bringing back the radio vote in 2022 when it didn't work in 2013 and surprise surprise it did not work in 2022 either. And what this year's rule change meant in combination with leaving the lines open was basically the super final thing that they also didn't want to do anymore, you know the Elaiza vs Unheilig situation by letting people vote between a Top 2, and yet they sort of recreated that again.

It's baffling, really. I don't even think they're doing it on purpose, it's just sheer incompetence. They seem desperate to change something bcs we always flop at ESC, but they change the wrong things. Instead of the voting System, they should have changed so much else (Barbara, the Couch, broadcasting time, the song picking process....). But... ugh.

They also make themselves so... attackeable. Like, why is the spokesperson for the Spanish Jury, and likely part of it, the brother of one of the songwriters of "Always on the run"? (The brother of Álvaro Soler being Greg Taro, to be more specific). And while that Jury only gave Isaak 8 points, it was the one who tanked the Fan favorites Ryk and Bodine the hardest. I doubt there's a conspiracy here, NDR probably doesn't even know - but man, it looks bad. And it can't be that hard to avoid that stuff? It just smells like incompetence all around.

 

[njdevils94]

It might be basic but he's a good performer. Isaak currently is in my top 10. Won't stay there for too long though I presume with other releases coming in the next few days.

 

[aef]

Really? The Eurovision jury is notoriously making extremely weird choices and usually rewarding bland english pop songs. 2018 has to be the best example for that. Cesar winning the jury and Jessica Mauboy getting 90 points was insanity.

I‘m sorry but what on earth are you writing. How are you even putting these two songs in one box. Nobody but You had very, very good vocals, was a solid song, has good staging, all in all a strong jury package. It at least deserved to be top 5 with the juries. Personally it’s not my favourite kind of music but I really wouldn’t call this song bland?! It serves a lot of quality, no matter if you like it or not.

had a totally different product. I would call this song bland, or at least very generic, without much personality and also weak vocals. But has always been a jury pick, especially in the first years since 2015.

In general I‘m not defending the Eurovision jury but it’s not like they are voting all over the place without any sense like the NF juries did.

 

[I bims]

I‘m sorry but what on earth are you writing. How are you even putting this two songs in one box. Nobody but You had very, very good vocals, was a solid song, has good staging, all in all a strong jury package. It at least deserved to be top 5 with the juries. Personally it’s not my favourite kind of music but I really wouldn’t call this song bland?! It serves a lot of quality, no matter if you like it or not.

had a totally different product. I would call this song bland, or at least very generic, without much personality and also weak vocals. But has always been a jury pick, especially in the first years since 2015.

On its own "Nobody but You" is just some radio pop song Yeah Cesar and the staging elevated it but winning the jury? Meh. And just proves for me that the jury picking those english radio pop songs in our national selection is perfectly in line with the songs the jury in Eurovision likes.

And "We got love" was by far worse than "Nobody but you" and I wasn't really comparing them but just pointing out that the jury gave that poorly staged nothingburger of a song 90 points. So I don't see how the results of the juryvote in our NF are so much different, the Eurovision jury makes similar odd choices all the time.