Finland FINLAND 2023 - Käärijä - Cha Cha Cha

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[Franzilein]

Umm, I hope you are aware that you and others started with the hypothetical scenario of Käärijä winning all 12 points which is why I replied with a hypothetical scenario myself (that Loreen also would have won with a worse jury result)??

Yes, working with the jury numbers which were presented to us, targeting the problem in relationship to the (almost record breaking) public winner. You kindly stripping a particular amount of points (that you set) away doesn't showcase anything, especially since those points will be added on to... yeah, to whom? It's a nonsense argument, since this is exactly what did not happen and isn't what causes this outrage.

 

[Ezio]

I have never witnessed a Country getting so much support and love from fans, the bubble and the other delegations like Finland this year. He doesn’t take it easy that he lost. And to me it all feels like a blood sacrifice. The evil feeds Itself from the collective mourning so let’s stop being sad and be happy instead.

Loreen is the personification of Ishtar/Astarte for me, so I won’t bow down but Cha Cha Cha instead.

 

[AliceEsc]

But why would you subtract 100 points? I think you're looking at the jury points of the overall winners? Why not at the jury winners though.

Loreen (2023) - 340

Loreen (2012) - 296

Holly, that's even more unsettling than Finland coming 2nd

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I have never witnessed a Country getting so much support and love from fans, the bubble and the other delegations like Finland this year. He doesn’t take it easy that he lost. And to me it all feels like a blood sacrifice. The evil feeds Itself from the collective mourning so let’s stop being sad and be happy instead.

Loreen is the personification of Ishtar/Astarte for me, so I won’t bow down but Cha Cha Cha instead.

Well, because almost everyone wants Finland to succeed and they do deserve a win! UMK was amazing the last few years, YLE is really pushing hard in terms of quality and they have a fantastic and charismatic roster of rising artists... I know their time will come soon, I just know. It happened to us, it will happen to them aswell... I remember how we felt falling short every year, I remember everything. It's really painful. But don't give up, dear Finland, you are on the right path to success.

Ps: I usually thought at United Kingdom second places to alleviate the pain back then, and it actually works. Just saying... If the Uk survived with all those silver medals, everyone can.

 

[Storm]

Yes, working with the jury numbers which were presented to us, targeting the problem in relationship to the (almost record breaking) public winner. You kindly stripping a particular amount of points (that you set) away doesn't showcase anything, especially since those points will be added on to... yeah, to whom? It's a nonsense argument, since this is exactly what did not happen and isn't what causes this outrage.

"Käärijä would have not even won with 60 points more (=winning all 12s), Loreen only won because of her obscenely good jury result that she didn't deserve!!!" is the same nonsense as saying "Loreen would have even won with 60 points less (=totally normal jury winner result), she didn't even need her obscenely good jury result that she by the way totally deserved!!!". It's just two ways at looking at the result, depending on the way you want to frame it or which narrative you want to give the win.

 

[Franzilein]

"Käärijä would have not even won with 60 points more (=winning all 12s), Loreen only won because of her obscenely good jury result that she didn't deserve!!!" is the same nonsense as saying "Loreen would have even won with 60 points less (=totally normal jury winner result), she didn't even need her obscenely good jury result that she by the way totally deserved!!!". It's just two ways at looking at the result, depending on the way you want to frame it or which narrative you want to give the win.

It simply isn't. What you are doing is diminishing the huge disparity that people are upset about, basically trying to revert the damage by setting a particular amount of points – super arbitrary.
The other showcases public votes turning meaningless in deciding the winner, that even if all countries want you to win, it doesn't matter. You basically get punished for liking another entry, just not to the extend that you want it to win (Loreen got zero twelve points). And that should not be the case, and that is not why juries were initially reintroduced. And this feeling of complete irrelevance is what drives people nuts.

 

[Storm]

It simply isn't. What you are doing is diminishing the huge disparity that people are upset about, basically trying to revert the damage by setting a particular amount of points – super arbitrary.
The other showcases public votes turning meaningless in deciding the winner, that even if all countries want you to win, it doesn't matter. You basically get punished for liking another entry, just not to the extend that you want it to win (Loreen got zero twelve points). And that should not be the case, and that is not why juries were initially reintroduced. And this feeling of complete irrelevance is what drives people nuts.

You are not realizing that you're doing the same thing. By bringing up the hypothetical(!) scenario of an act losing despite winning all televote points - which did not happen - you're 'increasing' the damage, creating a world in which Käärijä got 190 more televote points than Loreen did, increasing their televote discrepancy. There's no need to change the damage at all because we all can read and know what happened. Käärijä got 130 more televotes than Loreen, Loreen got 190 juryvote points more than Käärijä.

The reason I entered the discussion in the first place (which I tried among other things to do by using hypotheticals just like you and others did) is the following, something you came up with again in the last segment: It's not just about Loreens jury result and public votes are not turning meaningless! Because one of the reasons Käärijä cannot catch Loreen is because she got plenty public votes herself despite you only focusing on her jury result. Käärijä's televote score of 376 would have been more than enough if Loreen hadn't scored 243 televote points herself or if he had gotten a better jury result himself or a bit of both. It's not just Loreen's obscenely good jury result that brought her the win, otherwise she would have won with a 1 point and not with a 60 point lead.

 

[heke1988]

Well I would rather be televote winner than jury winner.

 

[midnightsun]

I admit, math is not my biggest strength but I don’t get it.

If - let’s say for example - Alessandra got Loreen‘s jury points and Loreen‘s Alessandra’s (1:1 exchange rate) then Alessandra would have won overall, surpassing Finland even.

 

[heke1988]

I admit, math is not my biggest strength but I don’t get it.

If - let’s say for example - Alessandra got Loreen‘s jury points and Loreen‘s Alessandra’s (1:1 exchange rate) then Alessandra would have won overall, surpassing Finland even.

Yeah, Alessandra's points would have been 556.

 

[Franzilein]

You are not realizing that you're doing the same thing. By bringing up the hypothetical(!) scenario of an act losing despite winning all televote points - which did not happen - you're 'increasing' the damage, creating a world in which Käärijä got 190 more televote points than Loreen did, increasing their televote discrepancy. There's no need to change the damage at all because we all can read and know what happened. Käärijä got 130 more televotes than Loreen, Loreen got 190 juryvote points more than Käärijä.

The reason I entered the discussion in the first place (which I tried among other things to do by using hypotheticals just like you and others did) is the following, something you came up with again in the last segment: It's not just about Loreens jury result and public votes are not turning meaningless! Because one of the reasons Käärijä cannot catch Loreen is because she got plenty public votes herself despite you only focusing on her jury result. Käärijä's televote score of 376 would have been more than enough if Loreen hadn't scored 243 televote points herself or if he had gotten a better jury result himself or a bit of both. It's not just Loreen's obscenely good jury result that brought her the win, otherwise she would have won with a 1 point and not with a 60 point lead.

One is arbitrary, the other an absolute. If you still don't see the difference in both, then I guess it can't be helped

 

[0scar]

I think part of the reason why people were/are so pissed is because after the jury vote, there was such a huge gap that it felt like it was already decided, and then got that monster televoting score, again giving the fans of Finland a little bit of hope, to be let down again. Such a rollercoaster of emotions lol.

The fact that the crowd was chanting "Cha Cha Cha" and "Käärijä" during the jury voting segment just shows the disappointment of it being neglected as a contender for the victory by the juries.

 

[Storm]

One is arbitrary, the other an absolute. If you still don't see the difference in both, then I guess it can't be helped

You seem to think that I just randomly decided to deduct the 56 points from Loreen's jury vote in my example when I used them precisely because it's the number you added to Käärijä's vote tally to max out the televote points?

On top of that, the average jury winner score is 287, the median jury winner score is 283 since the juries were brought back. These aren't arbitrary numbers either, so when I say that Loreen would have won even with an average jury score to counter a narrative that claims Loreen needed that insane enormous jury boost to win, then I also tried to back it with actual numbers...

But who cares in the end, we're just playing around with numbers, let's make peace ok! Or agree to disagree or whatever one says It's not that deep anyway.

 

[Ezio]

Unpopular opinion, I liked the UMK performance more than the ESC performance. It was overproduced and the dancers weren't as fierce. The dance at UMK was way better, throwing themselves in the air and the guy on guy moment, I loved it. Maybe it hurt also the jury vote.

 

[Sultana]

Time for some weird speculations which I RELATE TO
-- next year will be Abba´s 50th anniversary, the best way to celebrate it is to hold ESC in Sweden, woah!
-- Jury´s votes were EXTREMELY strange. They basically gave the majority of fan favourite songs small points. Half of the jurors in many countries placed Finland last but the rest gave it decent points (an attempt to cover everything??????) in case of Finland it MIGHT BE obvious why, but what about France? Norway? Basically it means they were afraid of televoting which may break the strategy of placing Sweden first.
-- Loreen hated the song at first and didn´t want to perform it, but sOmEbOdY convinced her and she took Tattoo as her song and entered eventually MF and then ESC. (so it means that they decided to use her in order to gain the so-needed victory via Loreen, who´s reputation in ESC is pure as Euphoria is her number one hit song among most of the viewers of ESC)
-- Radiostations all over Europe taking her song in and charting it. (To gain more attention from viewers. This song is played even in Russia)
-- Spotify changed his cover of "hot hits" to Loreen before the final night (what a coincidence woah)
-- ESC changed the trend and more countries have started to bring their own products rather than buying cheap swedish pop songs, less staging, more folk and diversity (which is a bad sign for swedish songwriters who earn a fortune every year from ESC seasons) so Tattoo winning will bring more countries back to the swedish camp, to swedish stage directors and so on. Melodifestivalen will still be a trendsetter, an example of HOW it should be done.
-- Somebody from Ukrainian team spilled the tea that among eurovision participants everybody knew the result. And as a cherry on top Loreen ignored all the parties, videos with other participants and according to some people behaved as the winner the whole edition.


So what do you think about all these speculations? I kinda agree with some of them, especially with the weirdness of the juries.

 

[midnightsun]

Loreen wearing her headset the whole time during public vote and didn’t need to be prepared before she went on stage tells me they all knew

 

[Sultana]

Will add one more to the previous post
Tattoo looks more like her Euphoria entry rather than her last songs. Loreen is an artist, and this song is completely esc friendly material which she stopped singing like years ago. She participated with Statements, a completely different song which is more close to her relevant music style. It might prove the point that she didn´t like the song as it was euphoria-ish and it might prove the thought she didn´t want to participate neither in this scheme nor with this song.

Time for some weird speculations which I RELATE TO
-- next year will be Abba´s 50th anniversary, the best way to celebrate it is to hold ESC in Sweden, woah!
-- Jury´s votes were EXTREMELY strange. They basically gave the majority of fan favourite songs small points. Half of the jurors in many countries placed Finland last but the rest gave it decent points (an attempt to cover everything??????) in case of Finland it MIGHT BE obvious why, but what about France? Norway? Basically it means they were afraid of televoting which may break the strategy of placing Sweden first.
-- Loreen hated the song at first and didn´t want to perform it, but sOmEbOdY convinced her and she took Tattoo as her song and entered eventually MF and then ESC. (so it means that they decided to use her in order to gain the so-needed victory via Loreen, who´s reputation in ESC is pure as Euphoria is her number one hit song among most of the viewers of ESC)
-- Radiostations all over Europe taking her song in and charting it. (To gain more attention from viewers. This song is played even in Russia)
-- Spotify changed his cover of "hot hits" to Loreen before the final night (what a coincidence woah)
-- ESC changed the trend and more countries have started to bring their own products rather than buying cheap swedish pop songs, less staging, more folk and diversity (which is a bad sign for swedish songwriters who earn a fortune every year from ESC seasons) so Tattoo winning will bring more countries back to the swedish camp, to swedish stage directors and so on. Melodifestivalen will still be a trendsetter, an example of HOW it should be done.
-- Somebody from Ukrainian team spilled the tea that among eurovision participants everybody knew the result. And as a cherry on top Loreen ignored all the parties, videos with other participants and according to some people behaved as the winner the whole edition.


So what do you think about all these speculations? I kinda agree with some of them, especially with the weirdness of the juries.

 

[midnightsun]

You‘re absolutely right Sultana. I got a few of these info myself from my peeps in the media but everytime I‘m explaining why it has to stop people go on at me.
It’s not only Loreen who had some advantages and it’s not so much about her, she didn’t certainly deserve all the backlash and I feel sorry because the whole Swedish machinery around Björkman-Österdahl is the one that made the ESC their own agenda and imho used Loreen for it. But anyway.

 

[A-lister]

The real winner of ESC'23

But as I mentioned in this thread, I knew the juries would block it from winning... it almost feels like they "forced themselves" to put it into the top. 5 as they knew how popular it was... but still this is just sad, while Sweden had a good song with a brilliant singer, this had a personality which can't really be said about the Swedish entry tbh.

 

[Franzilein]

You seem to think that I just randomly decided to deduct the 56 points from Loreen's jury vote in my example when I used them precisely because it's the number you added to Käärijä's vote tally to max out the televote points?

You're almost there.