Finland FINLAND 2023 - Käärijä - Cha Cha Cha

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I expect of juries, unlike televoters who usually have 3-4 big favourites, to like a huge variety of songs. That’s why we have juries right? To vote for musical variety that televoters don’t because they are biased.

How can it be that juries all vote for the same song? It bothered me already in the past and this year even more when we had a lot of different and creative songs (unlike last year when juries basically only had ballads mostly to choose from).

I would expect some jury to award some of their 12s to Czechia, some to Serbia, some Portugal, some to Norway, some to Slovenia… to distribute their points more balanced. All of them creative, fresh songs.

Right, but I think Serbian jury doesn't know what Cypriot jury votes... I don't think EBU allows juries to know what other juries vote, am I right? If they all had the same impression what do we do? Kill them? That's why I'm analizing song by song: to see how would I have voted if I was a juror... Not everyone does this when the contest is over, but I do because it helps me to understand more the voting.

 

[midnightsun]

No the juries don’t know what other juries vote for but I just think it’s rather improbable every jury likes the same song. I know we had that in the past once or twice (I think Sobral got a lot of jury votes, almost all) but most of the times the jury winner had around 200 points. So plenty of points also went to other countries. Each year in the past decade. I looked it up. And now it’s different suddenly? I don’t believe it but well… just my personal opinion.

 

[Bmbriga]

That's why I'm analizing song by song: to see how would I have voted if I was a juror... Not everyone does this when the contest is over, but I do because it helps me to understand more the voting.

I agree with you more or less. Although, Loreen didn't seem to me really strong vocally in the final. I didn't watch jury show, so it's hard form to judge.
I'm not surprised by the amount of votes they gave Finland. They were quite generous for this type song, when we look at their history.
They gave Shum 90 points or something like that, with performance being completely on point.
I think Italian should have gotten more jury points. Song is completely OK and his performance was top notch.
Maybe televoters didn't like it that much, but IMO if we look at how juries usually vote, Italy should have taken more points from Sweden.

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

No the juries don’t know what other juries vote for but I just think it’s rather improbable every jury likes the same song. I know we had that in the past once or twice (I think Sobral got a lot of jury votes, almost all) but most of the times the jury winner had around 200 points. So plenty of points also went to other countries. Each year in the past decade. I looked it up. And now it’s different suddenly? I don’t believe it but well… just my personal opinion.

This year, the more I look at the results the more it seems probable though. I can't find a single performance which I, if I was a juror, would have ranked higher. Maybe only Estonia and Portugal, which had awful running orders and to a certain extent Spain, which poor result isn't that poorer in the Jury as it is in the televote. The others, not so much... And even the songs eliminated in the semi's wouldn't have done the difference: I only see Latvia and Malta being jury pleasers, but the kind of jury pleasers coming 10th to 15th in the Juries, not higher.

 

[HayashiM]

No the juries don’t know what other juries vote for but I just think it’s rather improbable every jury likes the same song. I know we had that in the past once or twice (I think Sobral got a lot of jury votes, almost all) but most of the times the jury winner had around 200 points. So plenty of points also went to other countries. Each year in the past decade. I looked it up. And now it’s different suddenly? I don’t believe it but well… just my personal opinion.

Lowest common denominator I am not saying every jury liked Loreen to the point of giving it a 12 (and they didn't), but if you make the average of 5 professionals, it's pretty much bound to be in almost every jury's top 3 without any need for conspiracies. As I'd said elsewhere, Loreen wouldn't have got this much of an advantage most of the other years, but yeah, this year was different with very few actual jurybaits.

 

[Franzilein]

But who would have juries awarded?

Considering this is 2015 2.0, the juries were apparently just as impressed by Loreen's waffle iron as by Måns' light projection show. End of discussion. Vocal prowess was seemingly never important, since Il Volo were tanked a lot by juries in 2015, and if it was important this year, Italy, Israel, Estonia, Lithuania, Cyprus, Norway (!) and yes, even Australia (looking at you, insane e-bassist and background singer) had nothing to hide from and in contrast to Loreen were actually comprehensible in their intonation.

The point is "What justifies Loreen getting so many jury points that Käärijä as the public's winner still must get all public 12 points to win". I don't see it, especially with Tattoo as the song. Euphoria was a hammer in comparison and rightfully won both public and jury votes.

 

[Fierro]

Votes from for this song:

Grand Final
Televote: points

 

[Bmbriga]

From Croatia Loreen didn't get 12, but 10 points, which is still high. Finland got 7.
But it's not like a lot of them put her or Italy (that got 12) first.
Actually, every juror had a different first place.
Sweden, Estonia, Israel, Italy and Finland.

 

[heke1988]

Well at least Käärijä's song proofed, you can success with Finnish song, if song is good and catchy.

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

From Croatia Loreen didn't get 12, but 10 points, which is still high. Finland got 7.
But it's not like a lot of them put her or Italy (that got 12) first.
Actually, every juror had a different first place.
Sweden, Estonia, Israel, Italy and Finland.

Wow, actually they had one favourite each from Jury's top 5 overall...

 

[Storm]

The point is "What justifies Loreen getting so many jury points that Käärijä as the public's winner still must get all public 12 points to win". I don't see it, especially with Tattoo as the song. Euphoria was a hammer in comparison and rightfully won both public and jury votes.

You have a very narrowminded way looking at this. Käärijä would have needed all the 12 points, not only because Loreen got many jury votes. But mostly because a) Loreen additionally to her jury result still got a more than decent amount of televotes (on the same level as most televote winners of the 2000s for example) and b) because Käärija himself got only 150 jury votes.

You can frame this year's outcome also like this: Take away 57 jury points from Loreen and give it to other countries. That puts her above Tamara Todevska or Gjon's Tears, slightly above Cesar Sampson, same amount of points as Sam Ryder, a lot lower than Salvadar Sobral or Dami Im. Considering we only had 37 participants this year, she would be a good, a little above average jury winner in that scenario. She still wins.

 

[Franzilein]

You have a very narrowminded way looking at this. Käärijä would have needed all the 12 points, not only because Loreen got many jury votes. But mostly because a) Loreen additionally to her jury result still got a more than decent amount of televotes (on the same level as most televote winners of the 2000s for example) and b) because Käärija himself got only 150 jury votes.

You can frame this year's outcome also like this: Take away 57 jury points from Loreen and give it to other countries. That puts her above Tamara Todevska or Gjon's Tears, slightly above Cesar Sampson, same amount of points as Sam Ryder, a lot lower than Salvadar Sobral or Dami Im. Considering we only had 37 participants this year, she would be a good, a little above average jury winner in that scenario. She still wins.

Since Salvador also won the public vote in similar fashion to Käärijä, I'd say the juries did their job right there. A disparity of 6 puny points. Compare that to the staggering difference of 226. Even if Käärijä did the unthinkable and got 12 points from every country's public vote, Loreen still would have won by 1 point. This is the real scandal here.

How about you follow a discussion completely without taking single phrases out of it. Not once did I question Loreen's televoting results.

 

[Storm]

How about you follow a discussion completely without taking single phrases out of it. Not once did I question Loreen's televoting results.

??? Where did I say you did that. You literally said what your point is. And I replied that I find it wrong to frame it like that, focusing way too much on Loreen's jury score instead of all four sections of voting. When you only get 150 points from the juries (which I can't believe people even question tbh? If anything, I'm pretty sure if odds and buzz and all that weren't flying around, his jury result would be even lower considering he had bottom 3 vocals in the competition), and your rival, the jury winner, is also second place behind you in the televote score, then, yes newsflash, you need a massive amount of points to overcome that deficit.

If, before the competition, someone had told us for a fact that Käärijä manages to distance Loreen with 130 points in the televote, would any person even have doubts about Loreen still prevaling? Of course not, because Tattoo making up 130 points on Cha Cha Cha in the jury vote is not remotely surprising, is it?

 

[Ezio]

The Jury votes were all over the place with little consent. Sweden was apparently the most agreeable song even when a juror had it outside his Top 10.

Austria gave it 10 points overall with only one juror at 12 and the rest all below 10.

Austria's jury winner Italy only got 33 out of 60 points possible on the panel.

Albania gave Sweden 12 points with a juror completely blanking it.

I am going to dissect the jury vote further since I am emulating a table with only counting their Top 10.

 

[Ajeje Brazorf]

The Jury votes were all over the place with little consent. Sweden was apparently the most agreeable song even when a juror had it outside his Top 10.

Austria gave it 10 points overall with only one juror at 12 and the rest all below 10.

Austria's jury winner Italy only got 33 out of 60 points possible on the panel.

Albania gave Sweden 12 points with a juror completely blanking it.

I am going to dissect the jury vote further since I am emulating a table with only counting their Top 10.

That's the problem of only having 5 jurors for country... If they had mixed results even a contestant being, let's say, sixth or seventh with all the jurors can earn the 12 points. That's bad. So, it seems we need larger juries, that is the only thing to do. We learned 5 isn't enough and won't ever be enough...

 

[Franzilein]

??? Where did I say you did that. You literally said what your point is. And I replied that I find it wrong to frame it like that, focusing way too much on Loreen's jury score instead of all four sections of voting. When you only get 150 points from the juries (which I can't believe people even question tbh? If anything, I'm pretty sure if odds and buzz and all that weren't flying around, his jury result would be even lower considering he had bottom 3 vocals in the competition), and your rival, the jury winner, is also second place behind you in the televote score, then, yes newsflash, you need a massive amount of points to overcome that deficit.

If, before the competition, someone had told us for a fact that Käärijä manages to distance Loreen with 130 points in the televote, would any person even have doubts about Loreen still prevaling? Of course not, because Tattoo making up 130 points on Cha Cha Cha in the jury vote is not remotely surprising, is it?

So you talk in hypotheticals to prove a point. Nothing wrong in 340 jury points, apparently the other artists were just sh*t and on the same level as Käärijä or below. Gotcha. Hail Belting-Kween Loreen.

 

[SpiritofKeiino]

Kaarija seems to have got a great reception on arriving home and in the Finnish media, from the snippets I've seen. I hope he knows he's loved and doesn't think he's let people down for finishing 2nd. I hope he looks at acts like Sam Ryder and Dadi Freyr and sees that they are Eurovision icons who are loved by the fandom

 

[Wynnter]

Kaarija seems to have got a great reception on arriving home and in the Finnish media, from the snippets I've seen. I hope he knows he's loved and doesn't think he's let people down for finishing 2nd. I hope he looks at acts like Sam Ryder and Dadi Freyr and sees that they are Eurovision icons who are loved by the fandom

In a press conference they did ask him if he'd be down for returning in the contest through interval acts etc. like with some returning acts this year and he would be happy to do that if asked.

 

[SAYAY]

In a press conference they did ask him if he'd be down for returning in the contest through interval acts etc. like with some returning acts this year and he would be happy to do that if asked.

 

[Ezio]

That's the problem of only having 5 jurors for country... If they had mixed results even a contestant being, let's say, sixth or seventh with all the jurors can earn the 12 points. That's bad. So, it seems we need larger juries, that is the only thing to do. We learned 5 isn't enough and won't ever be enough...

It even gets worse with the full ranking option instead of Top 10 agregation. The Azeri vote changes completely from 1 to 4 due to this. I dont see a point in ranking a song 15th or 26th.

The Austrian vote doesnt change at all, it's more agreed upon.

I hope to make some progress with the rest of the countries today.