Himan
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If you are from Germany that is...
An Idea to stop "political" voting
- Thread starter sea78
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If you are from Germany that is...
Ezio
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Except for guaranteed 12 points to Switzerland, I think Liechtenstein will give as many points to Austria and Germany, as they give to each other. Which might be anything between zero and ten.
Its not about my Country, Im neutral and objective as always. But right now
Russia starts the Final with 80-90 Points,
Serbia starts the Final with 60-65 Points
and Germany, Austria and Switzerland starts the Final with 0 Points.
Its only Fair to reduce the unfair Advantae from other Countries.
blue00eyes
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But lol how can you stop Montenegro from voting for Serbia? They were one country decade ago..
I dont want Montenegro to stop voting for Serbia. I only want the Serbian People from Montenegro (and several other Countries) to stop voting for their own Country.
blue00eyes
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How
Himan
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Except if they think it's the best song right?
No, otherwise theyll start thinking they have every year the best song, like they already do.
Himan
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It's difficult then I guess. Now you're saying they should never get points from neighbors. It's a problem, that's unsolvable, so let's keep it this way and hope countries tend to be less favorable for neighbors (which is already happening...)
Schlagerman1
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I want people here to really think through why you think people vote for certain countries here. Let's say that you are born in Greece, but you live in the Netherlands, of course you get a little extra excited when it is the greek song. You think "Oh, it's my other country, wonder what they have sent this time?" and if it is at least a decent song, the chances are that you like it quite much are pretty high and that you might call in a vote or two on it. It is all about expectation in the end. I think that if you have Greek heritage, and the song from Greece may not be good enough, but the Cypriot song is pretty good, that they have an artist that you recognize and heard of, and who give a good performance, then you of course would feel extra proud to vote for it instead of Greece. Same goes for people that vote for any country. Even if you are Spanish, always lived in Spain, but you remember that you voted for Poland and Norway two years in a row, but this year Poland sent a really bad song, but you think Norway did send a good one once again, of course it is more likely to vote for Norway again then, since your expectation makes the quality go up, even if it isn't better if you comparing song to song objectively, but it feels like that it is as good, cause peoples memory isn't that strong to begin with.
It might be many reasons people vote for certain countries more than others. It might be that they are there neighbours, it might be that you have similar culture , it might be your heritage, it might be that you went on a trip there 10 years ago and you love the place and when you see the countrys flag on the TV you get all warm and happy over it, making a so-so song much better in your head than it probably is on the night. It is all about psychology in the end. It is after all humans that are voting, both in juries and in the televote. So trying to make people unhuman is impossible. We should just accept that everyone is different and we all vote in different ways and have different viewpoints. It isn't about tactical block-voting or that people do it to destroy the contest. Maybe a few do, maybe the juries can vote down a country once in a while, but what can we do? They are people, just like you and me. No system is perfect, there are better ways than what we have now, but I think it is one of the better systems that we have now. So in the end, this "political" voting (which is something I will never call it, since it isn't about political motives in that sense, it is more like "expectiation voting" or what to call it), can't be stopped. People are people, and that is also the beauty of this contest. That we all have different favorites for different reasons. And that is that.
It might be many reasons people vote for certain countries more than others. It might be that they are there neighbours, it might be that you have similar culture , it might be your heritage, it might be that you went on a trip there 10 years ago and you love the place and when you see the countrys flag on the TV you get all warm and happy over it, making a so-so song much better in your head than it probably is on the night. It is all about psychology in the end. It is after all humans that are voting, both in juries and in the televote. So trying to make people unhuman is impossible. We should just accept that everyone is different and we all vote in different ways and have different viewpoints. It isn't about tactical block-voting or that people do it to destroy the contest. Maybe a few do, maybe the juries can vote down a country once in a while, but what can we do? They are people, just like you and me. No system is perfect, there are better ways than what we have now, but I think it is one of the better systems that we have now. So in the end, this "political" voting (which is something I will never call it, since it isn't about political motives in that sense, it is more like "expectiation voting" or what to call it), can't be stopped. People are people, and that is also the beauty of this contest. That we all have different favorites for different reasons. And that is that.
The Problem is that many people always vote for the Same Countries, nomatter what the Song is. The Serbian/albanian/portuguese/Italian People in Switzerland always think they have the best Song, nomatter if its a Song that reflects own Musicculture and Language like "Nova Deca" or a replaceable englishlanguaged, americanised, westernsounding ballad like "Goodbye" or "in to Deep". Also many Russians from Latvia, Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova this year thought that "I wont break" was the best Song despite the fact that the singer cant pronounce english, cant hold a note and forgot her lyrics. And this is highpolitical and has nothing to do with musics. And from that moment on when Foreigner start voting for their own Country, Countries like Russia, Serbia, Ukraine, Turkey etc.. get an unfair Advantage over Countries like Switzerland, Austria, Czech Republic etc... And in the Past those Diasporavoter did so much Damage to other Countries with their votes.
Schlagerman1
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But as I said, I don't think people are voting for the same countries all the time and does this on purpose. Sure, it happens often that you vote for the same country, but it is because they got a connection with the country one way or another. Every year I do a "Listening" to the ESC-songs with my family and of course they get a little more excited when Norway, Denmark, Finland or Iceland comes up, mainly because it is countries that we have similar history, culture, language and geographically similar as well. It is often that Norway in particular does very well in our rankings, while Denmark has been a bit the one that does rather poorly, but that has to do with taste in the end. If you live in Latvia and has russian heritage, have russian TV-channels, reading russian in school, listening to russian artists, talking russian with you friends and so on, it is no wonder that you indeed have a strong connection to the neighbouring country to the east. Maybe you even feel at least equally much Russian as Latvian, so it is no wonder that you want to support your own country. And if you are used to vote for the same country almost every year...well then you probably do that again. But if the expectations are high and the song sucks literally, then it won't qualify. Look at Serbia 2013, being a winner 6 years earlier and had loads of neighbours and friends in the semi...ended 11th and got eliminated together with all former yugoslav countries.
And it is not the case that these diaspora countries does better all the time. Just look at Czech Republic who has done horribly in televote and finally kills it and grab the 6th place in total, absolutely terrific from them. So any country can do well, with the right song, at the right time. I mean even freaking Portugal won the contest! Austria, who sucked in the 2000s has won recently too. And before the last places for Germany, they had won with Lena and done well shortly after that.
All these suggestions about arranging the votes to make people less able to vote for what they want are actually very undemocratic and belongs in a time before 1956 if you ask me. So let these opinions stay in a time they belong and let humans do what they want.
But Eurovision shouldnt be about Sympathys about Countries, but about Songs. And f.e. "I wont break" has exactly nothing to do with Russia, neither the Sound nor the Lyrics. And Samolyova is no regional Superstar in Latvia or Georgia, so there is no Justification to vote for her. Its obvious that the Russians vote for her because of the russian Flag she represents. And yes, Local People dont always vote for the Same Country, but Foreigner always vote for the Same/their own Country. And only because Countries like Serbia, Russia, Turkey etc.. dont always qualify, it doesnt mean that their Votingpower isnt unfair. And yes, I know that every Country can do well, but that doesnt mean that every Country can the same bad. Last year f.e. Nathan Trent got 0 Points. I know it wasnt a good Entry, but yet, if he represented Russia or Serbia, he would have got 60-90 Points more and therefore ended up probably 5-6 Spots higher. Its f.e. not fair that Nathan got 0 Points for an average Song, because he represents a geopolitically weak Country, while f.e. this year, Claudia Pascoal got 18 Points for a much weaker Song, because the Diaspora saved her Ass etc.. These are things that arent alright. Its unfair that Some Countries get 0 Points in the Televoting, while other Countries like Russia start with 80-90 Points..
Schlagerman1
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I understand and respect your opinion, but I just don't understand why it is such a big problem? People aren't diaspora voting to the same extent as they did earlier, it can be seen with the complete crush Italy did in 2015 or Austrias win in 2014 for example. Even Portugal winning with that big of a margin and having an Israel that has had so much problem with even qualifying in the 2010s.
My main concern with "ideas" to stop "political" or "friendly" voting, is that it often comes down to let people not being able to vote for what they want. Who cares what reason they got for voting for a country? Maybe it is that they want Russia to win, if so, then let them do that. Having a televoting makes this contest alive and to restrict or even take it away would kill the contest instantly. I hope you don't want to kill Eurovision, and of course you don't. You care about it maybe too much...
It was shown this year that getting points from 11/42 possible countries in the televote (including over 80% from neighbour/diaspora) was enough to get 10th place - https://eurovision.tv/event/lisbon-2018/grand-final/scoreboard/lithuania
it´s this that Realest means in his thoughts, if we ever shall return to 100% televoting, the point system needs to change to reduce the diaspora voting by huge margin (even more than it already is) the voting system he suggested in another thread is the best solution in that case which would make more countries get votes and with a big difference between getting 1st place in televote in a country than finishing in the last place to get points
Schlagerman1
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But if we go back in time, Eurovision was nowhere close of being this popular and that is mainly thanks of having a televote. People having a chance to have their say in this contest that is filled with history, whatever their opinion is right or wrong. And it will never be completly right. Whatever system, whatever people vote for, it will be the wrong result. It will never be 100% fair. Sure I would have liked Switzerland for example to qualify this year, but it was too strong of a semi. I am sure they would qualify from semi 2 if they were drawn there, cause the song is definitely good enough to do that. Do I think it is fair that Switzerland didn't qualify? No, but what can I do. In the past it was the french and english speaking countries that had an huge advantage, almost won every year in 50s, 60s and 70s. Four of Swedens six wins is even in English. Now it happens to be countries with diasporas or that has a lot of neighbours. Like Russia, Serbia, Armenia and even Turkey when they competed. So what? People vote for that they understand, what they recognize and what they believe in.
Looking at Lithuanias televote result in 2018 and yes, it is 12 points from many of the strong diaspora countries for them. But even if you would change the system to whatever, Lithuania would still get those highest marks from these five countries...it would still lead to a high placement in the televote and in total at least a place in the top 15. Cause it was a damn good ballad, well performed, and it deserved every point. Sure it wasn't that many countries that voted for it, but it wasn't that many countries that voted for Lithuania in 2017 either...12 from Ireland, 10 from Norway and then a bunch of 1s, from for example baltic friend Estonia and neighbour Belarus. So it does come down to the song in the end.
I don't think the system will change for many years, and I hope it stays sorta the same too. Cause I like the jury, it does give the competition some depth and do make it more about the songs. But to arrange the televoting more than the 50% that is now...no let it be. Otherwise the contest will be dead. And that would be such a shame.
Let's not "forget" about antipathies and discrimination from the televoters
+ I faced discrimination from the ESC commentators too and even heads of broadcasters. Not talking about so-called "Eurofans".
Implying that the whole diaspora is brainless is wrong. But nobody can prove/count how many people vote for just countries instead of songs. Did you interview all of them or you just appointed a certain amount?)) Also this number is not constant for every edition. Not to mention the number of haters.
It's unfair when #1 and #2 of the televoting receive 20 and 17 0's from the juries
(including mutual bitchslap )It's unfair that after a huge conflict with the EBU (which cost 10mil. euros for both sides) my country was punished by the juries.
Finally it's unfair when certain broadcasters don't hide their friendly relationships and vote for each other because of... ehm, mutual favors (the highlight happened a few years ago when one HoD had revealed they would give high points to 1 country because they're friends with their broadcaster ... 1 month before the show. They gave it 10 pts in the end). Today I see that things haven't changed
"Friendly" and political voting among the juries also influences ESC a lot.
Let's not "forget" about antipathies and discrimination from the televoters
+ I faced discrimination from the ESC commentators too and even heads of broadcasters. Not talking about so-called "Eurofans".
Implying that the whole diaspora is brainless is wrong. But nobody can prove/count how many people vote for just countries instead of songs. Did you interview all of them or you just appointed a certain amount?)) Also this number is not constant for every edition. Not to mention the number of haters.
Where did you experience Antipathies and discrimination from the Televoters + from the broadasters? Im curious. I only experienced the Anti-Ukrainian/Pro-Russian Attitude here in the Forum and on Facebook and it was disgusting. Regarding the Diaspora, I have a very good statistical Understanding. And the Fact that f.e. Sanja Vucics Televotes came only from Countries where the most Serbians live (Yugoslavia, Switzerland, Austria, Italy) while she was Bottom3 in 90% of every other Country where no Serbians live, proves that at least in CH/AT/IT, she would have the same 0 Points like everywhere else. And Im pretty sure, the Kroatians/ Slovenians etc.. are also sick of giving their 12 always to Serbia. I felt the Same with Turkey often last Decade. Also it has to be mentioned that Serbia always got 12 Points from MEs Televoting in the History and from every other Neighbour Serbia got at least 10 but mostly 12 too. And its statistical viewed very unlikely to have that often Serbia in the Top2 regarding the different Kind of Songs that they sent. So its proven, that many Televoter (mostly Serbians living in their Neighbourcountry) vote for the Serbian-Flag. There are many other Examples...
It's unfair when #1 and #2 of the televoting receive 20 and 17 0's from the juries
It's unfair that after a huge conflict with the EBU (which cost 10mil. euros for both sides) my country was punished by the juries.
Well, you know Juries can only give Points to 10 Countries and 0 Points to 15 other Countries and I see no Duty for any
Jurymember to put Sergey or Jamala in his Top10. Juries and Televoter vote independent from each other without knowing
the other Result. And in that moment when f.e. one of the spanish Jurymembers rank Jamala outside the Top10, he
doesnt know, that the other spanish Jurymembers + several other Jurymembers worldwide rank Jamala outside the Top10 too.
So you cant say there was a planned Juryboycott of Jamala or Sergey. The total Jury-Result is a Result of several individual single
Results. Also I remember a statement of a bulgarian Jurymember, who said he ranked Jamala 23rd because political Songs dont belong
here. One year later, Bulgaria was one of 3 Countries who gave Points to O.Torvald, so there is no Country-Bias against Ukraine.
Yes, what the EBU did to Ukraine is unforgiveable, but to claim that the Juries punished Melovin is wrong. The fact that he was last
with the Juries, doesnt mean that he was last with most of the Juries, but that he was Top10 the fewest Times.Thats the big
difference. Moldova was put last from 37/210 Jurymembers and still reached Top10, because the Song polarised while Ukraine was
neither good nor bad. I remember 2016 the same happened with Jamie Lee who was mostly put between 16-20 and very rarely Top10 and
Bottom5 and therefore ended up last with 1 Point, which made sense. I can tell you, the German Jury had Melovin on 12th Place which
was totally fair and unpolitically. But in the End its the same 0 Points like Saara who was last with our Jury. And to be honest, with his bad english, his "Vampire-Image" and his contact lense he was far away from being Juryfriendly. I expected a Bottom5 in the Juryvoting tbh.
Finally it's unfair when certain broadcasters don't hide their friendly relationships and vote for each other because of... ehm, mutual favors (the highlight happened a few years ago when one HoD had revealed they would give high points to 1 country because they're friends with their broadcaster ... 1 month before the show. They gave it 10 pts in the end). Today I see that things haven't changed
"Friendly" and political voting among the juries also influences ESC a lot.
Thats interesting. Which Broadcasters do you mean?
I monitor the other forums, not ESC-themes ones but those with ESC thereads. Some people were like "how did they dare to ban Russia" (lol, Country? Same haters who lie, lie, lie and lie). We're poor, corrupt f-en Easterners so lets hate us for that. Lets call us a flop state which organized the worst ESC ever where literaly nothing was good
Everyone knows West is more superior to East etc.Some ESC sites are probably paid by certain producers because they praise one countries no matter what they send and copy & paste bs from political sites (remember 2017 attacks on us? Every week those media were saying that we won't make it. 90% of that was a lie or perverted facts coming from Russian media, and yet certain ESC sites decided to copy & paste that). Before the war ... remember those remarks about Russian gas from Terry Wogan and BBC's whining about neighbour voting, basically urging their televoters do not vote for us? Or the French HoB saying that Greece and Eastern Europe have no taste (unfortunately it's deleted now)? In 2017 Armenian broadacster comapred their representative to Russian nuclear rocket that will fly to Kyiv
Italian RAI in 2017: "Ukraine lost Crimea, Ukraine will lose Eurovisoion". German broadcaster feeling sad for Samoylova and hinting at "cruel" Ukraine this year.Don't get me started on that crap from the EBU officials... "Jamala shouldn't have won". "Ukraine should change their security system" (
) "Ukraine will be banned". Thank gawd that pro-Russian bitch Deltenre (and who else would give her first interview on the subject to a pro-Russian tabloid? ) is gone. Gotta love how she lied: "we have messages from many broadcasters who will withdraw if Russia won't be allowed", lol. And what about other broadacsters who think the same but they stay silent
Zeroes.
2014:
#1 - 9 (more than half of them from homophobic juries)
#2 - 8
2015:
#1 - 0
#2 - 5
2016:
#1 - 17
#2 - 3
#3 - 20
2017:
#1 - 2
#2 - 3
2018:
#1 - 8
#2 - 15
Cyprus 2018 is the perfect example of something that would score a lot of 0's from the juries. It applies to Russia 2016 to a lesser extent imo but definitely not to Ukraine 2016.
Also I've never said that Melovin is a jury-friendly material but I expected 7-9 entries to finish lower than us.
I won't reveal these ones. I know of 7 broadcasters representing every part of Europe, including 2 from the Big 5. I won't be surprised if there are more.
However the things changed this year. Ukraine became "friends" with 1 of them. Thanks to their new HoB (appointed in a different year though).
Things can't last forever so I hope to see even more changes next year.