What's your favorite languages?

[AdelAdel]

But they cannot be "dialects" becuase each of them already has its OWN dialects: kajkavian, čakavian and štokavian (kaikavian, chakavian and shtokavian) in Croatian, whether there is only štokavijan (shtokavian) in Serbian!
Serbian doesn't recognize kajkavian and chakavian!

Kajkavian dialect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Kajkavian dialect is is a dialect of the Serbo-Croatian language spoken by Croats in northwestern part of Croatia."
It's something like Standard Croatian dialect and minor Croatian dialects.

 

[doctormalisimo]

btw Finland, Spain and UK HAVE their native languages...even Ireland but you don't use it so often as you use English language......so I really don't see a point of your statement here?

Finland, Spain, UK and Ireland all have minority languages (Swedish, Catalan/Basque, Welsh/Scottish and Irish respectively). My point is that if you divide areas of linguistic difference, then modern countries don't exist. Trying to define a nationality by a language is a not good thing to do. Saying that 'Serbian and Croatian are different languages because they're spoken in different countries' is not a valid argument.

 

[Jim]

-Greek (My language)
-English
-Italian
-Spanish
-German

 

[vatroslav_cro]

I am not talking about it at all, David! But your argument is not very strong as well.

btw: Wikiedia ain't the only reliable data source in Internet. There are some ohter sources too. Wikipedia is a bit outdated (I mean in general).

Now see this:


Croatian | Ethnologue
Serbian | Ethnologue
Bosnian | Ethnologue

 

[Jim]

I am not talking about it at all, David! But your argument is not very strong as well.

btw: Wikiedia ain't the only reliable data source in Internet. There are some ohter sources too. Wikipedia is a bit outdated (I mean in general).

Now see this:

Croatian | Ethnologue
Serbian | Ethnologue
Bosnian | Ethnologue

Oh, I don't like these languages...Sorry Vatroslav!

 

[vatroslav_cro]

plus:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/croatian.htm

http://eudict.com/?lang=croeng&word=croatia%20babelfish(for translation use)

and:

http://www.101languages.net/croatian/overview.html
http://www.101languages.net/serbian/overview.html
http://www.101languages.net/bosnian/overview.html

That's all. I am not trying to impose anything what would be "thebest", I am just marking the other sources.

(it is ok Jim)

 

[unicorn]

01 Turkish
02 English
03 Korean
04 Japanese
05 Italian
06 Spanish
07 French
08 Dutch
09 German
10 Norwegian
11 Portuguese
12 Swedish
13 Finnish
14 Danish
15 Hungarian
16 Icelandic
17 Polish
18 Czech

 

[Jim]

IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER:

-English
-French
-German
-Greek
-Italian
-Spanish

 

[LakZaNokte]

And btw, Bosnian and Montenegrin don't exist as languages. Both of them are Serbian, but in different dialect.

ok, time out

bosnian=serbian?
do u really want to go there?

also, as far as i know, montenegrin is far from serbian


how did i miss this discussion earlier? 2


anyways, for those who are wondering: there is no serbo-croatian language. there's serbian and there's croatian.
also, it would be really nice if people who don't know a single word from my language stop teaching me what language i am speaking, thank you

 

[Luki]

Well Serbo-Croatian is a idea for macrolanguage with 4 sub-languages (varieties, whatever) in it, though it makes sense, it is not recommended to classify it as language. At least that's what I think, but it's not a good idea to tell someone that she/he is speaking serbo-croatian cause you might get in trouble, some linguists in Croatia called it lingual genocide, and it's a delicate topic, well almost tabu... but it's not even mentioned or spoken about it, at least I haven't heard it. Personally I don't mind it, I speak a language and with it I can communicate with citizens of Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina and Montenegro without any difficulties (except for some regional expressions etc.). But the whole thing about serbo-croatian is just ridiculous... it's obvious that they are similar but still not the same. Montenegrin and Bosnian could not be Serbian, especially Montenegrin since they have two more letters, and they sound to me like people of south Croatia more than they sound like Serbian people, but I'm not saying that it's a variety of Croatian. EXYU is sometimes so complicated and fucked up.

EDIT: The reason why it shouldn't be used as a term is probably because before 1850s it wasn't even used or thought about it... before there were Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin, never mentioned as one language... but then these unionistic, southslavic ideas came and the idea of Serbo-Croatian was created. Hope this makes it clear for everyone.

 

[Milos-BC]

ok, time out

bosnian=serbian?
do u really want to go there?

also, as far as i know, montenegrin is far from serbian

Go where?

As far as I am aware, it is a posture of all relevant linguistic institutions (language institutes in the first place). And that is that Muslims (so I don't count Serbs and Croats who live in and declare that way) in Bosnia speak Bosniak which is a sub-variant of Serbian, and that is how it is treated in the relevant linguistic institutions. But as a separate language like Serbian and Croatian, it doesn't exist. Bosnian language is something that obviously the authorities have put in order to make the national feeling firmer in its own borders (being as multi-ethnic as it is), but Bosnian language, as a separate language doesn't exist and isn't recognized anywhere. It would be the same as if someone from Austria said he speaks Austrian language or if we hear that someone in Moldova speaks Moldavian.


In what way is Montenegrin far from Serbian? And also why are their now really attempts in to create their own language (and yet again, these newly invented rules are recognized nowhere, and none of the Montenegrin people use them) and differentiate from Serbian, if they are that far? They now added something like "tvrdi" and "meki znak", something that never existed in any of the ex-yu languages and their subvariants claiming that it is "old Montenegrin", and why does no single person in Montenegro use those rules? Try to find one word in "Montenegrin" that doesn't exist in Serbian, and you will not find any, because there is no word in "Montenegrin" that doesn't exist in Serbian. There are, also, parts of Serbia where people speak on ijekavica and is that far from the original Serbian language too?


It is easy to find different words in Serbian and Croatian, because they are different languages (although similar), and not to mention Slovenian and Macedonian, but you will not find any language particularities in either "Bosnian" or "Montenegrin" for one simple reason - none of those two exist as separate languages. It is not something that I made up or invented, it is a posture of all relevant linguistic institutions, as I already said

 

[LakZaNokte]

Go where?

As far as I am aware, it is a posture of all relevant linguistic institutions (language institutes in the first place). And that is that Muslims (so I don't count Serbs and Croats who live in and declare that way) in Bosnia speak Bosniak which is a sub-variant of Serbian, and that is how it is treated in the relevant linguistic institutions. But as a separate language like Serbian and Croatian, it doesn't exist. Bosnian language is something that obviously the authorities have put in order to make the national feeling firmer in its own borders (being as multi-ethnic as it is), but Bosnian language, as a separate language doesn't exist and isn't recognized anywhere. It would be the same as if someone from Austria said he speaks Austrian language or if we hear that someone in Moldova speaks Moldavian.

whose institutions?

In what way is Montenegrin far from Serbian? And also why are their now really attempts in to create their own language (and yet again, these newly invented rules are recognized nowhere, and none of the Montenegrin people use them) and differentiate from Serbian, if they are that far? They now added something like "tvrdi" and "meki znak", something that never existed in any of the ex-yu languages and their subvariants claiming that it is "old Montenegrin", and why does no single person in Montenegro use those rules? Try to find one word in "Montenegrin" that doesn't exist in Serbian, and you will not find any, because there is no word in "Montenegrin" that doesn't exist in Serbian. There are, also, parts of Serbia where people speak on ijekavica and is that far from the original Serbian language too?

here's a link to montenegrin constitution
link (go to 13.)
what does it say there?

apparently, bosnian constitution doesn't say anything about official language. and that's because there is no agreement between all sides about bosnian language (and there will never be one, but nevermind that now), in bosnian institutions
bosnian is underlined because they are the ones that will make that decision, right?

It is easy to find different words in Serbian and Croatian, because they are different languages (although similar), and not to mention Slovenian and Macedonian, but you will not find any language particularities in either "Bosnian" or "Montenegrin" for one simple reason - none of those two exist as separate languages. It is not something that I made up or invented, it is a posture of all relevant linguistic institutions, as I already said

oh i'm not disputing that languages are similar, that would be ridiculous
but again, what institutions are u talking about here?

 

[LakZaNokte]

EXYU is sometimes so complicated and fucked up.

sometimes? 2

 

[Milos-BC]

First of all, I am not sure what exactly you are implying or what hurts you in this case.


Second, on page #13 of their constitution I found nothing related to this case. The issues mentioned there have no relations with language issues.



Next thing, I explained that, in order to try and differentiate totally from Serbian, the authorities in are now trying to make up new rules for the, so called, Montenegrin language, that never existed and that people don't accept and laugh at. If using symbols that we find in Russian for example, and for which they claim that it were part of "old and real Montenegrin language that every person in spoken" why such symbols are never found in "Gorski Vijenac" for example? Why none of those old writings uses those rules of "old Montenegrin"? If that is something that existed for centuries, like the authorities claim, why can't they give us a proof of at least one of those public texts where we can see them in practice? I saw many of them, and I never saw those rules being used, just like I don't see any person using them now either. So much of "old Montenegrin" and this issue.

As for the institutions, it is a common posture of all ex-yu institutes for their corresponding language (Institut za srpski jezik i knjizevnost, institut za hrvatski jezik i knjizevnost, Institut za makedonski jezik i knjizevnost and Institut za slovenacki jezik i knjizevnost. In the opinion is divided, and one side tries to put Bosnian language as a standard language but so far, fails to do so, because it is not recognized as such even in and that is what you stated as well, correctly of course, where you indirectly admitted as well what is known - that Bosnian as a seperate language doesn't exist), just like institutions like Matica Srpska, Matica Hrvatska, etc............


This is what for example one professor from Instiut za srpski jezik i knjizevnost says about "Montenegrin" language (he is born in by the way, an interesting fact, so he is Montenegrin, not a Serb :

Prof dr Drago Ćupić, dugogodišnji direktor Instituta za srpski jezik i književnost, jedan je od najpozvanijih jezičkih stručnjaka na ovim prostorima za razgovor o srpskom jeziku i njegovim surogatima. Iza ovog stručnjaka stoji obimna bibliografija i pola veka pregalaštva na polju srpskog jezika.
Godinama je ispitivao problematiku u savremenom srpskom jeziku, posebno u oblasti jezičke norme i jezičke kulture. Rođen u Zagaraču, kod Danilovgrada, u Crnoj Gori, naš sagovornik najpre progovara o crnogorskom jeziku kao najnovijem surogatu srpskog jezika.

- O „crnogorskom jeziku“ mogu da govorim samo ako ga stavljate pod navodnike, jer taj jezik ne postoji. Razdvajanjem Crne Gore od Srbije i vlasti u Crnoj Gori su shvatile da će im jezik koji se zove kao njihova država i nedavno proglašena crnogorska nacija (što bi rekao Matija, mlađa i od njega), ostati samo slovo na papiru, a i oni sami sumnjaju u to što govore. Da se razumemo, Crna Gora je stara evropska država i njeno postojanje niko ne dovodi u pitanje niti ima pravo na to.

and this also:

U Crnoj Gori vlasti nastoje da uz pomoć jezika utvrde nacionalnu postojanost. Crna Gora je imala državu oduvek. Zna se za nju, ali je to uvek bila srpska država. Kao što je ovamo bila Raška, tamo je bila Crna Gora. Nemanja je rođen u Crnoj Gori. Postoje naznake da je i Sveti Sava rođen u Đevič gradu, mada o tome nema mnogo podataka. Kada su formirali državu, Crnogorci su regulacijom ustava u Crnoj Gori kao službeni jezik uspostavili „crnogorski“. U tom istom ustavu piše da su u službenoj upotrebi srpski, albanski, bošnjački. Taj crnogorski jezik se nikad u Crnoj Gori nije pojavljivao niti je imao svoje ime ni u narodu ni u literaturi. Isto su pokušali Italijani tokom Drugog svetskog rata, tako što su navodili učenike podgoričke gimnazije. To niko nije prihvatio, jer nije bilo države Sekule Drljevića, koju je sa separatistima formirao na Cetinju 12. jula 1941. godine, na Petrovdan.

This is also a reply on your constitution argument.


And this is what Dragoljub Petrovic and Blagota Mitric, members of the Mongenegrin language institute and proffesors of the Law Faculty in Podgorica say on their own "Montenegrin" language:

[h=1]Službeni “crnogorski” jezik – neprimenljiv, jer ne postoji[/h]

PODGORICA - Istaknuti lingvista Dragoljub Petrović i profesor Pravnog fakulteta u Podgorici Blagota Mitrić ocenili su danas da mehanizam službenog jezika i jezika "u službenoj upotrebi", ustanovljen novim crnogorskim ustavom apsurdan, ističući da je opravdano zaključiti da "trenutno zvanični službeni jezik, crnogorski, ne postoji".


"Nije moje da sudim o posledicama, jer to treba da vide oni koji će u praksi sprovoditi taj mehanizam, ali je mehanizam iz novog ustava apsurdan i neprimenjiv", kazao je Petrović

On je ocenio da će i "oni koji su najviše kumovali ovom rešenju, na kraju ipak shvatiti da su napravili krupnu grešku".
"Neverovatno zvuči da će građani imati čak pet formulara na raspolaganju u nekoj državnoj službi", rekao je Petrović.
Mitrić smatra da crnogorski jezik ne može biti u upotrebi na teritoriji Crne Gore, jer nema svoj pravopis.
"To znači da efektivno ne postoji. Trenutno, srpski jezik će biti u upotrebi sve dok se ne donese pravopis za crnogorski", istakao je Mitrić.

So, they also clearly state that it doesn't exist. You have to agree that these people certainly know better than you and me, and I believe in what they say When they change their opinion, I will also change mine, obviously.

I remember that I was watching a show on HRT as well regarding this case, so I know that people in your institute think the same. If I find something on the net I will paste it here, but until then, it is enough to see what Montenegrin linguists think of "Montenegrin" language in this post.


And by saying this:

here is no agreement between all sides about bosnian language (and there will never be one, but nevermind that now), in bosnian institutions

You also admitted that Bosnian doesn't exist, which is what is true anyway.


I see that you are trying to make me look like someone who denies Bosnians and Montenegrins their own language, while the reality is that I don't have anything to deny, because even they deny their own newly composed "languages" and I listen to what some people that certainly know better than me on this issue have to say




Now that you saw the institutions, I would like to know what are the huge differences between Montenegrin and Serbian, if you think that all these professors are not right and are talking bulls.hit.

 

[LakZaNokte]

oh, not page 13., article 13.
anyways, it says official language in mne is montenegrin. serbian, croatian etc are listed as languages that are also in use in mne.

the thing is, u can't despute some1's constitution
u can name and quote 1000 "scientists" and all that (btw, they both speak in fluent ekavica ) but u can't state that it "says wrong" in the constitution. if they stated they speak svahili, then they speak svahili, as far as it goes for u and me both


as for bosnian, it is clear that there will never be an agreement on that issue, it's a dead topic anyways.
but bosnian is not serbian
there is serbian language in bosnia, yes, but bosnian isn't serbian
bosnian muslims mostly speak in ijekavica, serbian speaking muslims have always been a minority.
i mean, if we go down this road we will end up in otoman empire. and then we will discuss the ethnicity of bosnian muslims. and then we will have to stop cause this isn't politics

(that effort to try to push ijekavski version of serbian as something relevant is ridicilous, even if it exists, it doesn't prove anything; we have a croatian version of ekavica for that matter (in zagorje) but they are both exceptions, as official grammar and all that is well known for both of us, we all know where we stand )

 

[dogmeat]

If you could stop using this and other similar icons in random, inadequate places, i might be more willing to read your posts.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Does it really matter? You all vote for each other in Eurovision anyway.

 

[Luki]

Does it really matter? You all vote for each other in Eurovision anyway.

How do you know our secret?!?!?!

 

[Luki]

If you could stop using this and other similar icons in random, inadequate places, i might be more willing to read your posts.

Oh god... omfg... oh jesus.

 

[LakZaNokte]

If you could stop using this and other similar icons in random, inadequate places, i might be more willing to read your posts.

oh they aren't inadequate, trust me