Voting and the jury role in it

[Chorizo]

Neighbor voting is not a bad thing. And last year German jurors faced criticism because they didnt give Austria 12 points.

I think it's good that the televoters in Greece didn't place Cyprus on top this year just for being Cyprus. That's an improvement over always giving the 12 points to the same neighbor.
In Cyprus, the usefulness of the jury was shown because the jury is the reason why Greece didn't get 12 points. So the mixed system with televote and juries worked in this case. Voting for neighboring countries just because they are neighbors is awful, no matter if it's done by the jury or by the televoters. Countries don't deserve votes based on their regional proximity.

The German jury wasn't criticized because Austria is Germany's neighbor. They didn't vote for Conchita because the homophobic rapper Sido was part of the jury and many people believe that he influenced the opinion of the other jurors. Sido used to be a judge on an Austrian casting show a few years ago. Conchita participated in this show and Sido was publicly hating on her. Apart from San Marino, Germany was the only Western country that didn't give one of the three top votes to Austria. This was a matter of homophobia in the German jury and it had nothing to do with neighbor voting. Austria won the televote in Germany. In the semi final, Austria had received even less points from the German jury but then they decided to give more points to Austria in the final, when they realized that Austria was popular.

 

[Alaska49]

the whole problem with juries now is that they broke our trust and now every single vote of theirs will be seen with suspicion. did the cypriot jury hate one last breath and ranked it a bit high out of loyalty? did they love it but brought it down to invalidate the televote? were they simply honest? we can't know and we have reasons to suspect they are not simply being honest. maybe juries should just go away.

... but they won't, so i was thinking if the melfest system would work in an adapted version. basically each of the five jurors gives their points, then the televote winners win percentages of 290 (5 x 58) points, and then the winner gets 12 points, second place 10 points etc. it's basically an improvement on the old 50/50 because juries sort of have more power than the televote but massive televote winners also get their points. it would be a bitch to count all that data in the grand final but they stall us for long enough as it is anyway.

 

[Pawhlen]

This is the result with the "old" 50/50 system:

1. 368
2. 319
3. 293
4. 221
5. 160
6. 155
7. 104
8. 89
9. 86
10. 65
11. 58
12. 57
13. 53
14. 46
15. 45
16. 37
17. 36
18. 29
19. 23
20. 18
21. 16
22. 15
23. 12
24. 5
25. 4
26. 3
27. 3

 

[ElRuso]

Maybe we should use juries only in SF, and 100% televoting in the GF. Also in the final, they can award a special prize, to the winner of the jury voting,

 

[mykka]

Meh, everytime I think juries are overstepping their duties, I'm reminded as to why they returned...

 

[ElRuso]

Meh, everytime I think juries are overstepping their duties, I'm reminded as to why they returned...

So you think that Scooch deserved to win? Besides in 2014 was more Western lucky.

 

[mykka]

Because that contest was the epitomy of diaspora/neighbor voting.

 

[Alaska49]

This is the result with the "old" 50/50 system:

1. 368
2. 319
3. 293
4. 221
5. 160
6. 155
7. 104
8. 89
9. 86
10. 65
11. 58
12. 57
13. 53
14. 46
15. 45
16. 37
17. 36
18. 29
19. 23
20. 18
21. 16
22. 15
23. 12
24. 5
25. 4
26. 3
27. 3

even though the shadiness of the juries also lies in what their top points are (australia giving their top spot to russia because one of them knew the people behind the song), this looks so much better. sweden still wins for earning their jury win while italy is not robbed of 74 points. also: no nul points!


ps: the 2007 vote was great and it rewarded all the memorable songs. deal with it.

 

[eerik]

One thing is certain, we can not get rid of the jury. Think of all the drama we would lose! I love butthurt internet drama!

 

[VikingTiger]

Meh, everytime I think juries are overstepping their duties, I'm reminded as to why they returned...

Yeah.... that was the direction the televotes were taking... getting more and more predictable every year. A shame!
So we do need juries. I dont want to see more of this sort of voting.

 

[GWTW1939]

The last three years have been just as predictable though...only difference is the fanboys are getting their way this time

Its funny to see people pretty much admit that the juries are corrupt but its okay because its preventing the East from dominating and the corruption favors their favorites, who are usually not from the East

 

[ElRuso]

The last three years have been just as predictable though...only difference is the fanboys are getting their way this time

Its funny to see people pretty much admit that the juries are corrupt but its okay because its preventing the East from dominating

Bravo [MENTION=12168]GWTW1939[/MENTION]! When Western countries dominated the contest, it was ok, but now. All who blame East, just remember how many times an Eastern countries won in period 1956 to 2000. If we dont take Israel in account, only Yugoslavia. So, the limit on good places is over.

 

[Alaska49]

The last three years have been just as predictable though...only difference is the fanboys are getting their way this time

Its funny to see people pretty much admit that the juries are corrupt but its okay because its preventing the East from dominating and the corruption favors their favorites, who are usually not from the East

yes, the hypocrisy of some people is staggering.

do you know why 2007 had so much perceived block voting and barely any western options? it's because the western entries in the semifinal were so weak, they couldn't even give each other points, and the automatic qualifiers from the west were all dreck, too. meanwhile, eastern europeans gave us some of the most iconic entries ever: molitva, dancing lasha tumbai, song #1, shake it up sekerim, water, work your magic, unsubstantial blues, fight, etc. in case you haven't noticed that's the entire top 10 except yassou maria (the best western entry) and that armenian guy with the toilet paper tree.

if western countries had better game then they'd do as well as they are doing now. all of the recent western televote winners won the televote in eastern countries, too. the thing is, eastern countries still have game and the juries rig them down the scoreboard. and some people seem to love it because they are more about politics than any "diaspora" member, i guess.

 

[FilipFromSweden]

Exactly, the eastern/southern European countries put more time and effort to get quality songs to the contest in 2007, that's why they got much better results than the western countries. Literally all rememberable songs we're from the eastern/southern Europe.

And that is what we are seeing today. The nordics/western countries is trying harder to get good results than they used to, the difference is just all the whining about the western/nordic Europe is doing good and how they all suddenly bribe the juries because they are doing good

 

[Alaska49]

people who say juries are bribed are being silly because they don't NEED to be bribed. the way i see it, the problem is that western juries are prejudiced against eastern entries because they've been so successful in the 00s and they blame it on "political voting" (rather than eastern entries being light years ahead of them in quality), so now they mark eastern entries down to counteract diasporas and block voting that might not even be statistically relevant.

there IS an imbalance on power since 2013. probably someday the eastern juries will catch on and play dirty too and then russia will win and ebu will magically change the rules again because it's only bad if russia is doing too well. i don't even like most russian entries post-dima but it's a miracle they haven't just quit in protest yet.

 

[ElRuso]

people who say juries are bribed are being silly because they don't NEED to be bribed. the way i see it, the problem is that western juries are prejudiced against eastern entries because they've been so successful in the 00s and they blame it on "political voting" (rather than eastern entries being light years ahead of them in quality), so now they mark eastern entries down to counteract diasporas and block voting that might not even be statistically relevant.

there IS an imbalance on power since 2013. probably someday the eastern juries will catch on and play dirty too and then russia will win and ebu will magically change the rules again because it's only bad if russia is doing too well. i don't even like most russian entries post-dima but it's a miracle they haven't just quit in protest yet.

Exactly. Our C1R protested the returning of jury voting, but in the EBU no one cares about our opinion.

 

[mykka]

Juries are there to tame the diaspora. Thank god for that.

 

[Chorizo]

Before the juries were introduced, block and diaspora voting looked like this:

2008:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Points_to_Russia_ESC08.svg

2007:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Points_to_Serbia_ESC07.svg


In recent years, the 12 points came from more diverse countries:

2015:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Points_to_Sweden_ESC15.svg

2014:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Points_to_Austria_ESC14.svg

2013:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/ESC_2013_Points_for_DK.png
Especially in 2013 neighbor voting was rather weak.


It seems juries are a necessary evil.

 

[Alaska49]

that is so disingenuous. the map still shows molitva getting loads of 10s 8s all over even if all ex-yugoslavs gave it a 12. believe's map doesn't look as good but it still got less 12s than the average winner and needed points from all over europe to win.

meanwhile sweden this year still got 12s from all of their block but it also got top3 placements from almost everyone else so it fits your narrative. it's hilarious that you included last year's map though because it clearly shows a western block and all the eastern countries outside. i rooted for conchita as much as anyone else but i also don't have a provlem with voting blocks and a voting block made conchita win.

the only map that even comes close to show some diversity is 2013 and a) it's still west giving top 3 points to west and not east, b) that was the first year under the new system, before juries got shady.

so basically all the maps look equally geographically biased and the argument amounts to "juries are a necessary evil because western blocks get their way". gotcha.

 

[Pawhlen]

Here is the medel-ranking for this year (that were given as official split results back in 2013)

Televoting:

1. 2,54
2. 4,13
3. 4,28
4. 6,13
5. 8,31
6. 8,41
7. 8,54
8. 9,49
9. 12,03
10. 12,31
11. 13,23
12. 13,44
13. 13,82
14. 15,49
15. 15,72
16. 15,82
17. 16,82
18. 16,95
19. 17,26
20. 17,28
21. 17,67
22. 18,21
23. 18,77
24. 18,77
25. 19,31
26. 22,18
27. 22,21

compare that to the Points counting: http://tummiweb.com/scorewiz/scoreb...ng-contest-2015---final---televoting/H2dFDtpe

As you all can see, these numbers can tell real lies about actual Point outcome, so the results back in 2013 were for sure quite different in the point counting