escYOUnited
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United Kingdom UNITED KINGDOM 2020 - James Newman - My Last Breath
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ESCConor
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I personally feel the BBC needs to revamp the selection completely.
Heres my idea.
Firstly, I would scrap the National Final, It clearly is not effective.
I would instead go back to Internal Selection.
Songs could be submitted by Record Labels, BBC Introducing and members of the public.
I would start by having a 100 member public panel selected through a questionare on the BBC websitewith the questionare open to any member of the public who lives in the United Kingdom along with a International Jury comprised of 40 members who reprsented their respective countries on juries in the past excluding the UK. Both juries will each have a 50% say in determining the UK entry.
Out of all the songs submitted, Both Juries will then whittle down the number of songs to a list of 16.
Artists and Composers of the songs will then be invited to a workshop where they will be given advice and support. Both Juries will then whittle the list down further to a list of 4 songs who will move on to the final stage.
The final 4 artists will be listened to by both juries once more.
It will be there the UK song will be determined.
Thoughts on this idea?
Heres my idea.
Firstly, I would scrap the National Final, It clearly is not effective.
I would instead go back to Internal Selection.
Songs could be submitted by Record Labels, BBC Introducing and members of the public.
I would start by having a 100 member public panel selected through a questionare on the BBC websitewith the questionare open to any member of the public who lives in the United Kingdom along with a International Jury comprised of 40 members who reprsented their respective countries on juries in the past excluding the UK. Both juries will each have a 50% say in determining the UK entry.
Out of all the songs submitted, Both Juries will then whittle down the number of songs to a list of 16.
Artists and Composers of the songs will then be invited to a workshop where they will be given advice and support. Both Juries will then whittle the list down further to a list of 4 songs who will move on to the final stage.
The final 4 artists will be listened to by both juries once more.
It will be there the UK song will be determined.
Thoughts on this idea?
blue00eyes
Well-known member
I would suggest to try something that doesn't sound and look like X-Factor performance. It can be someone famous whose carrier is dead, so that ESC doesn't hurt them but damn no 60yo stars.
That song and performance did NOT deserve last place, not at all. I totally expected at least a top 20 placement. But clearly something went wrong for both the public and juries to dislike it so much, and while part of it might somehow be the country itself (and i don't think Brexit has any effect on it at all, since they were equally impopular before it) there's a whole lot of bad choices made along the way that somehow made this unappealing to both camps.
Please don't go with an internal selection, it'll turn out like Ireland, even worse and it'll just be totally unknown talent show rejects the public doesn't even like. At least as it is now, they can be said to represent the taste of the UK public somehow. The selection just needs better entries, and a wider variety besides the old fashioned, somewhat Broadway-like crooners they're obsessed with for some reason....
Please don't go with an internal selection, it'll turn out like Ireland, even worse and it'll just be totally unknown talent show rejects the public doesn't even like. At least as it is now, they can be said to represent the taste of the UK public somehow. The selection just needs better entries, and a wider variety besides the old fashioned, somewhat Broadway-like crooners they're obsessed with for some reason....
ESCConor
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Ive noticed this year countries who selected internally did better.
I felt sorry for Michael, He deserved better and some of the Jury results were just extrodinary. Its made me question the role of juries in future contests.
But I agree You Decide should be kept however I would expand the number of songs from 6 to 12 along with having 2 semi finals and a final possibly over a weekend.
I think the problem has been shortlisting of the songs. I personally would have a jury of 100 members who are selected through applications, questionares and based on set criteria as well as an expert jury of 20 members who represented their countries on past juries in previous Eurovisions.
Narrow down the songs submitted to 32, invite them artists to a songwritting camp in London or Manchester, meet the artists, allow them to get vocal and chorographical support and allow them to change their songs before both juries listen to each revised song, then narrow it down to the final 12 songs who will go the Live Finals.
I personally feel 6 songs is way too few for a decent national selection.
BBC has to change and fast or I will be certainly questioning whether they should continue selecting UK songs in future.
r3gg13
Well-known member
I think you meant to say, "most underperforming ESC country, especially in last 15 years."
When San Marino does better than you, it's a sign that you gotta step it up a bit. (or a lot)
LastDreamer
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Last 
entries were not so bad, as the majority think.
entries were not so bad, as the majority think.
PashQueerLife
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I wouldn't be surprised if the BBC ends up internally selecting the song next year.
Chrisiam
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It is interesting seeing people's suggestions on how the selection process can be changed or improved. Particularly as (intentionally or not) the things that are being suggested are things that the BBC has done in the past.As part of research that I have been doing on the subject for a video I am working on about the UK at Eurovision and how it can improve, I have been looking into the selection processes and what can be learnt from them to try and turn around the UK's fortunes at the event.
These are my initial findings looking only at the selection process and not the songs or acts, information may be inaccurate or misread by myself. Just thought I'd warn you, but, to vastly over simplify for the sake of brevity up until 2003 the UK had two different methods of selecting its acts for Eurovision.
The First System was similar to what we have now; multiple acts competing as part of a televised (or Radio Broadcast) National Selection. This was used from 1957 to 1960, then was brought back from 1970 to 1991, then finally from 1995 to 2003. The number of acts would vary; in the first national selection it was 19 acts and progressively got smaller as time went by until the Second Selection method was used. When it was revived in 1970 12 acts were in the selection, this was repeated till 1981 where from there until 2003 (excluding 1987 where it was 10 acts and the years where the Second System was used) 8 acts were used in the National Selection. From 1996 to 2003 the national selection was hosted over two nights, a semi final and a national final. The final year that the National Selection was done with 8 acts and two nights was in 2003, the year Gemini represented the UK, since then there has never been more than 6 acts in the National Selection and the only year the selection was done over more than night was in 2009 where it was done over 5 nights (incidentally, the UK finished 5th that year).
The Second System, which was used from 1964 to 1975 and then from 1992 to 1995 was something of a hybrid between national and internal selection; the BBC would select the act who would represent us and the public would vote for the song, usually taken from a selection of 6, which the performer would perform in one night of performance and typically the chosen song and the rejected songs would be released together as part of an album prior to the contest or at a later date.
As I say, since 2004 till now National Selections for the most part have been reduced to 6 acts performing their song on one night or has been done totally Internally. This year was a combination of the Second System and National Selection; the BBC chooses three songs, made two versions of each, then gave them to six acts, the public then voted on the act they wanted to represent us.
Now, I am not saying that going to either of the pre' 2004 (or even the 2009) systems will magically make the UK good at Eurovision again, however, I do believe that, as has been stated by many people, that if we are going to have a National Selection then there should be more acts up for selection, that those acts be diverse in their genre of music and that the songs they sing be written by themselves or their usual song writer(s) and not something that we got 2nd hand from another competing nation or something the BBC cooked up themselves.
The acts selected should have at least released an album in the past 12 to 18 Months and must be allowed to release their song as a single regardless of if they are selected or not.
I see no reason why they cannot gather up 8 acts from BBC Introducing, ask them to bring a song, do it on one night and hire in a theatre company to work on the staging (As best they can given that the chosen act might not inherently lend itself to elaborate staging) for the Eurovision Finals.
Or hell if we are going to go down internal selection again then let the public pick the song! At least then the act doing it can get a TV special and a chance to plug their album out of it either way.
I suppose if there is some positivity to be taken out of the result that we got then it is that whenever the UK has finished last or gotten a bad result the year after the selection process has changed. So there is a good chance that next year things might be different. But I worry it will just be the same as the year before; they'll drop the multiple songs thing and just go with stuff written to be 'Eurovision Friendly' or gotten second hand from Sweden or The Netherlands and it will be all X-Factor style performances and presentation. Or failing that a song written by Gary Barlow or someone else that can make a soft, harmless and 'Eurovision Friendly' song.
These are my initial findings looking only at the selection process and not the songs or acts, information may be inaccurate or misread by myself. Just thought I'd warn you, but, to vastly over simplify for the sake of brevity up until 2003 the UK had two different methods of selecting its acts for Eurovision.
The First System was similar to what we have now; multiple acts competing as part of a televised (or Radio Broadcast) National Selection. This was used from 1957 to 1960, then was brought back from 1970 to 1991, then finally from 1995 to 2003. The number of acts would vary; in the first national selection it was 19 acts and progressively got smaller as time went by until the Second Selection method was used. When it was revived in 1970 12 acts were in the selection, this was repeated till 1981 where from there until 2003 (excluding 1987 where it was 10 acts and the years where the Second System was used) 8 acts were used in the National Selection. From 1996 to 2003 the national selection was hosted over two nights, a semi final and a national final. The final year that the National Selection was done with 8 acts and two nights was in 2003, the year Gemini represented the UK, since then there has never been more than 6 acts in the National Selection and the only year the selection was done over more than night was in 2009 where it was done over 5 nights (incidentally, the UK finished 5th that year).
The Second System, which was used from 1964 to 1975 and then from 1992 to 1995 was something of a hybrid between national and internal selection; the BBC would select the act who would represent us and the public would vote for the song, usually taken from a selection of 6, which the performer would perform in one night of performance and typically the chosen song and the rejected songs would be released together as part of an album prior to the contest or at a later date.
As I say, since 2004 till now National Selections for the most part have been reduced to 6 acts performing their song on one night or has been done totally Internally. This year was a combination of the Second System and National Selection; the BBC chooses three songs, made two versions of each, then gave them to six acts, the public then voted on the act they wanted to represent us.
Now, I am not saying that going to either of the pre' 2004 (or even the 2009) systems will magically make the UK good at Eurovision again, however, I do believe that, as has been stated by many people, that if we are going to have a National Selection then there should be more acts up for selection, that those acts be diverse in their genre of music and that the songs they sing be written by themselves or their usual song writer(s) and not something that we got 2nd hand from another competing nation or something the BBC cooked up themselves.
The acts selected should have at least released an album in the past 12 to 18 Months and must be allowed to release their song as a single regardless of if they are selected or not.
I see no reason why they cannot gather up 8 acts from BBC Introducing, ask them to bring a song, do it on one night and hire in a theatre company to work on the staging (As best they can given that the chosen act might not inherently lend itself to elaborate staging) for the Eurovision Finals.
Or hell if we are going to go down internal selection again then let the public pick the song! At least then the act doing it can get a TV special and a chance to plug their album out of it either way.
I suppose if there is some positivity to be taken out of the result that we got then it is that whenever the UK has finished last or gotten a bad result the year after the selection process has changed. So there is a good chance that next year things might be different. But I worry it will just be the same as the year before; they'll drop the multiple songs thing and just go with stuff written to be 'Eurovision Friendly' or gotten second hand from Sweden or The Netherlands and it will be all X-Factor style performances and presentation. Or failing that a song written by Gary Barlow or someone else that can make a soft, harmless and 'Eurovision Friendly' song.
LakZaNokte
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Does anyone here actually think anything will change?
Chrisiam
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Honestly I do going off precedent, whether or not the changes will be for the better is another thing entirely.
Like I said in my last post I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all they learnt was not to do the multiple songs thing again and/or lets get another well known writer in. The songs and their style will remain the same, the acts will have little to no performative experience (I mean there was an act this year that literally said they had never performed live before and oh boy did it show) and the final performance will have next to know staging and will have choreography comprised of walking to the left, walking to the right, walk to centre stage, air grab, walk forwards and done.
I get the sincerer feeling that the selection process and the final result is being handled by people who are not creative artists; they are just TV Producers who know how to stage and a TV performance and talent search for an X Factor style talent show and that is it.I mean, it is really saying something when the most dynamic thing that has happened during a UK performance has been a stage invader.
Now there is nothing wrong with that persay, it is fine work if you can get it, but Eurovision isn't that kind of event.
When an effort has been put into our selection process and our staging/performance it has paid off, sure we have not won it but it is better than what we have had recently. It ultimately depends on if the BBC is wiling to own its failures and learn from them or if they are willing to put up with the bad press that the results give them for the week after the results in exchange for the viewing figures they get on the nights of the semis and the final.
I mean, aside from that no one is really seeming to challenge them on this, unless there is some fan petition in the works or some meeting that is going to take place between a fan group to demand change the only people saying anything about this in a noticeable way are all the people and papers using it for political capital.
Still, it is early days. Going of past records the national selection will be opened in September so we might get an idea of what is what around then, or closer to the selection night. and if there is no real change, well. I look forwards to revisiting these posts in a year's time.
Like I said in my last post I honestly wouldn't be surprised if all they learnt was not to do the multiple songs thing again and/or lets get another well known writer in. The songs and their style will remain the same, the acts will have little to no performative experience (I mean there was an act this year that literally said they had never performed live before and oh boy did it show) and the final performance will have next to know staging and will have choreography comprised of walking to the left, walking to the right, walk to centre stage, air grab, walk forwards and done.
I get the sincerer feeling that the selection process and the final result is being handled by people who are not creative artists; they are just TV Producers who know how to stage and a TV performance and talent search for an X Factor style talent show and that is it.I mean, it is really saying something when the most dynamic thing that has happened during a UK performance has been a stage invader.
Now there is nothing wrong with that persay, it is fine work if you can get it, but Eurovision isn't that kind of event.
When an effort has been put into our selection process and our staging/performance it has paid off, sure we have not won it but it is better than what we have had recently. It ultimately depends on if the BBC is wiling to own its failures and learn from them or if they are willing to put up with the bad press that the results give them for the week after the results in exchange for the viewing figures they get on the nights of the semis and the final.
I mean, aside from that no one is really seeming to challenge them on this, unless there is some fan petition in the works or some meeting that is going to take place between a fan group to demand change the only people saying anything about this in a noticeable way are all the people and papers using it for political capital.
Still, it is early days. Going of past records the national selection will be opened in September so we might get an idea of what is what around then, or closer to the selection night. and if there is no real change, well. I look forwards to revisiting these posts in a year's time.
With a channel switch, no it isn't clear that things will change but the fact is ITV is better connected, has more money and freedom to burn, and it's demographics are much younger and diverse. Whereas the BBC is all the opposites, it showed even in Brexit with that debate that was supposed to happen but died a death, May wanted the BBC and Corbyn ITV because they know which would be better for their base. Unlike JESC, viewing figures in ESC are still good considering our results - imagine them with Swedens level of success. It's worth remembering, the year the BBC got us last with 0 points, ITV got us 3rd place with 118 pts, including 3 12s. Ofc that was a long time ago though.
This article literally puts what is wrong perfectly. Even watch the snippet from Lorraine in the article which just encompasses everything wrong with our attitude. Quite frankly the entire clip is incredibly insulting, not just to Europe but also to Michael.
We can sit and discuss in excess what they need to do but we all know we'll be back here again next year talking about the exact same thing yet again. The BBC CAN win, the UK CAN win. We all know that, it's just they have the wrong people in charge. I can't seriously believe that they all think these inoffensive middle of the road songs are great and a perfect entry.
This article literally puts what is wrong perfectly. Even watch the snippet from Lorraine in the article which just encompasses everything wrong with our attitude. Quite frankly the entire clip is incredibly insulting, not just to Europe but also to Michael.
We can sit and discuss in excess what they need to do but we all know we'll be back here again next year talking about the exact same thing yet again. The BBC CAN win, the UK CAN win. We all know that, it's just they have the wrong people in charge. I can't seriously believe that they all think these inoffensive middle of the road songs are great and a perfect entry.
Once I have a new laptop and can sit down and put words into an article I will bang out my thoughts in detail, but yeah... The songs we are being offered clearly aren't the best ones available and it's up to the BBC to give us some risky options. What's the point in playing it safe if playing it safe gets us last anyway?
A-lister
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BBC is treating Eurovision as Nigel Farage is treating the EU so I don't have high hopes tbh... it's sad though and I think everyone are in agreement that a big music producer like UK shouldn't have to struggle to get a decent song, even if the songwriter/producer and/-or act would all be fresh faces to the general public.
Alaska49
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honestly even a low-budget, no-live-show, indie NF like the czech one would already be an improvement over whatever the fuck bbc is doing right now. i am sure they can get 8 to 10 indie acts with good compositions to sign up for such a thing. i don't trust the british public to vote for live performances anyway, they only vote for the best singer and never the best song lol.
i do wish there was a way the itv could go "MOMMY SAID IT'S MY TURN ON THE EUROVISION" though. even if it was a every year other thing like in russia or belgium...
i do wish there was a way the itv could go "MOMMY SAID IT'S MY TURN ON THE EUROVISION" though. even if it was a every year other thing like in russia or belgium...
bstream
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This only worked
I do think this is wildly true, based off the YouTube comments by Brits themselves:
I’m not keen on completely removing the UK public’s say, but why not include internet voting-hybrid system (if needed)?
because of this
The UK just needs different songs, I’d say closer towards being/sounding like summer hits, but that does not preclude indie acts.
I do think this is wildly true, based off the YouTube comments by Brits themselves:
The “You Decide” voters (not the wider UK audience) treat ESC like the Voice.
I’m not keen on completely removing the UK public’s say, but why not include internet voting-hybrid system (if needed)?
Chrisiam
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It isn't really surprising that the national selection is treated like The Voice as that is pretty much how it is (or at least this year) was presented.
The first thing that audiences saw of any of the acts on the night was a V.T. introducing them in a "Spontaneous and totally informal" conversation with their opposite act having "Totally Real" reactions to the other person's song with their backstory and history explained to the audience. A greater emphasis is put on the act as a person and their personality over them as an act. And at the end of the day Rice came across a lot better in those than anyone else did; as I said previously he comes across like just about any other X-Factor winner in that he is just an ordinary boy next door nice guy who loves his family and is a plucky underdog who is just happy to be their and 'live the dream'.
Plus he was the last singer of the head to heads and with the benefit of being the last act on and coming across so well he was always going to win.
I don't want to sound conspiratorial, I mean I am sure that the fact that winner of the BBC's newest talent show's placement in the running order and how he came across on the night was totally coincidental and that if they had cut the V.T.'s and had him earlier in the show that he still would have won, totally.
My worry is that the BBC could do an 8 act national selection with Indie Acts but still the focus would not be on the act and their quality but on them as people.
Maybe it wouldn't be like that. But when the only real music shows on TV are shows in the style of the X-Factor that is all we are going to get in terms of production.
As for changes to the voting system, well, maybe they do something similar to the old voting system where each region of the UK gives points to the acts they want to represent them similar to in the Eurovision finals where the top three acts get 12, 10 and 8 points respectively? If nothing else then it would make the end results more transparent. Not sure how that would end up changing the end results but, hell, it would give a little more dynamism and drama to the night, and TV folks love their reality TV drama!
The first thing that audiences saw of any of the acts on the night was a V.T. introducing them in a "Spontaneous and totally informal" conversation with their opposite act having "Totally Real" reactions to the other person's song with their backstory and history explained to the audience. A greater emphasis is put on the act as a person and their personality over them as an act. And at the end of the day Rice came across a lot better in those than anyone else did; as I said previously he comes across like just about any other X-Factor winner in that he is just an ordinary boy next door nice guy who loves his family and is a plucky underdog who is just happy to be their and 'live the dream'.
Plus he was the last singer of the head to heads and with the benefit of being the last act on and coming across so well he was always going to win.
I don't want to sound conspiratorial, I mean I am sure that the fact that winner of the BBC's newest talent show's placement in the running order and how he came across on the night was totally coincidental and that if they had cut the V.T.'s and had him earlier in the show that he still would have won, totally.
My worry is that the BBC could do an 8 act national selection with Indie Acts but still the focus would not be on the act and their quality but on them as people.
Maybe it wouldn't be like that. But when the only real music shows on TV are shows in the style of the X-Factor that is all we are going to get in terms of production.
As for changes to the voting system, well, maybe they do something similar to the old voting system where each region of the UK gives points to the acts they want to represent them similar to in the Eurovision finals where the top three acts get 12, 10 and 8 points respectively? If nothing else then it would make the end results more transparent. Not sure how that would end up changing the end results but, hell, it would give a little more dynamism and drama to the night, and TV folks love their reality TV drama!
LeRoyaumeUni
Member
I really think the BBC should go back choosing songs internally through Radio One/BBC Introducing (like with Molly). I want to see us back in full flow in the decade ahead, so can the BBC make some effort please...it's not asking for a lot!
Anyhow, someone's set up a petition for Radio One/BBC Introducing to collaborate with our selection process to find a song for the UK for 2020:
http://chng.it/g7WqrbtWQT
Anyhow, someone's set up a petition for Radio One/BBC Introducing to collaborate with our selection process to find a song for the UK for 2020:
http://chng.it/g7WqrbtWQT