Sweden SWEDEN 2023 - Loreen - Tattoo

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

Ah these blames on Finnish public voting tactically. Perhaps 14 juries were voting tactically to not giving Finland any points?

I am still surprised that he got those many points from the juries, watched his jury show performance, his vocals were bad in the second half. People really believe he had a jury friendly entry that he should have been higher than #4 with the juries?
On the other hand, Finns in the tele not voting for their neighbours with Loreen and a hit entry at all... It was tactical lol

 

[Loindici]

I am still surprised that he got those many points from the juries, watched his jury show performance, his vocals were bad in the second half. People really believe he had a jury friendly entry that he should have been higher than #4 with the juries?
On the other hand, Finns in the tele not voting for their neighbours with Loreen and a hit entry at all... It was tactical lol

He is a rapper.

Added context: he mainly raps, rarely sings. I'd look out for his rapping capacity.

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

He is a rapper.

So juries should have thought : he doesnt sound great but thats ok, he's a rapper, lets give him our 12 and ignore what Ebu asks us to vote on
Ah juries and their tactical voting

 

[Loindici]

So juries should have thought : he doesnt sound great but thats ok, he's a rapper, lets give him our 12 and ignore what Ebu asks us to vote on
Ah juries and their tactical voting

I know what you're onto but let's see how it fits.

The jurors will be ranking the scores based on the following criteria:

• composition and originality of the song
• quality of the performance on stage
• vocal capacity of the performer(s)
• overall impression of the act

Vocal capacity of the performers are there, but comparing as example Blanca Paloma to Kaarija is like comparing sun to pluto. So to make it fair, I'd interpret that third point as to "vocal capacity of the performer to deliver the intended song". Kaarija raps, it's a rap song, is his rap good? At least it's acceptable for a live performance.

And there is still three other points to that broad criteria, which I'd think Cha Cha Cha relatively excels at.

 

[Semra]

I am still surprised that he got those many points from the juries, watched his jury show performance, his vocals were bad in the second half. People really believe he had a jury friendly entry that he should have been higher than #4 with the juries?
On the other hand, Finns in the tele not voting for their neighbours with Loreen and a hit entry at all... It was tactical lol

4:th with the juries is high for a song like this. I love Finland but it probably didn't deserve this much to be honest. And that's because of his vocals in the second part. Some points for originality and overall performance,- absolutely! I'm glad to see the jurors reward that.

But Sweden didn't deserve a more than landslide with the juries either. It was monsterous. That's my problem with this whole thing. I support her winning the jury vote, but with THIS much? Seriously. There were some songs that would've scored much higher if they were Nordic (esp. Swedish) acts. The jury bias is there and we have to admit it.

I say this as someone who had Sweden third in my ranking, before Finland, and don't like my own country's song (Norway). My bias should not be very strong.

 

[heke1988]

4:th with the juries is high for a song like this. I love Finland but it probably didn't deserve this much to be honest. Some points for originality and overall performance,- absolutely! I'm glad to see the jurors reward that.

But Sweden didn't deserve a more than landslide with the juries either. It was mosterous. That's my problem with this whole thing. I support her winning the jury vote, but with THIS much? Seriously. There were some songs that would've scored much higher if they were Nordic acts. The jury bias is there and we have to admit it. I say this as someone who had Sweden third in my ranking, and before Finland.

Yeah, I don't question about Sweden being first with juries, because it was a quite expected. But that kind of lead to the second one (163 points to Israel)?

 

[Semra]

Yeah, I don't question about Sweden being first with juries, because it was a quite expected. But that kind of lead to the second one (163 points to Israel)?

Agreed. Israel was objectively very professional in every aspect. The gap is just not defensible.

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

Yeah, I don't question about Sweden being first with juries, because it was a quite expected. But that kind of lead to the second one (163 points to Israel)?

So tell me, lets say you are juror, you are not a eurofan, you are called as a professional to do your job. Lets say Cha cha cha isnt competing, as you are fan.
You have Loreen with Tattoo, Israel, Italy, and Estonia. You have to rank them on the vocals, the mainstream hit potential of the song, the peformance, the originality, and the overall impression they leave on you. Who would you put as your #1?
I can ( personally ) see clearly as water why they all went unanimously for it, wheres the other '' jury songs '' failed to be as consistent ( for example, some jurors would prefer Israel's polished performance over Estonia's unoriginal track, while other would go more for Alika's vocals ). But Tattoo had no cons for the jurors, her entry was the perfect jury bait

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

Agreed. Israel was objectively very professional in every aspect. The gap is just not defensible.

Does Noa have a great vocal capacity than Loreen? Did Unicorn leave you a stronger impression than Tattoo? And does unicorn have the same hit potential with Tattoo?

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

The gap is just not defensible.

Also, Kaarija's gap in the televote was 133 points, which is also huge. It baffles me that people can perfectly understand that it was the most televote-friendly entry, but they can't get that Loreen's was the most jury-friendly one.

 

[Andromache]

Israel was professional but the song was too polarizing. The song got mixed reactions by the Eurovision fandom and it probably got the same reactions from the juries. Many people disliked the song because it sounds like multiple songs in one. I like Unicorn and I'm glad she got good result but I get why some people don't like it fully.

Loreen's performance and song were by far the best imo and her result is deserved. She served the full package, amazing vocals, staging etc. And who cares that she won thanks to the juries. So did every winner before the televote was introduced like Abba and Celine.

 

[heke1988]

So tell me, lets say you are juror, you are not a eurofan, you are called as a professional to do your job. Lets say Cha cha cha isnt competing, as you are fan.
You have Loreen with Tattoo, Israel, Italy, and Estonia. You have to rank them on the vocals, the mainstream hit potential of the song, the peformance, the originality, and the overall impression they leave on you. Who would you put as your #1?
I can ( personally ) see clearly as water why they all went unanimously for it, wheres the other '' jury songs '' failed to be as consistent ( for example, some jurors would prefer Israel's polished performance over Estonia's unoriginal track, while other would go more for Alika's vocals ). But Tattoo had no cons for the jurors, her entry was the perfect jury bait

Well firstly I must know, how they performanced in jury show. But because I can't see it anywhere, because it is not televised, I can't rank them on same way, which really juries does.

But I rank them by GF audience show I will rank them:

Vocal capacity of the artist(s) : 1. Estonia (deserved to be at least second in jury ranking (best female vocalist)) 2. Italy 3. Sweden (Loreen's vocally wasn't best in GF), 4. Israel
Performance on stage: This is the hardest one: 1. Israel 2. Estonia 3. Sweden 4. Italy (I can't understand, why that trampoline was there and those you men)
Originality and composition of song: 1. Estonia (Best female ballad of the year and underrated song), 2. Israel 3. Sweden 4. Italy
Overall impression of the act: 1. Israel 2. Estonia 3. Loreen 4. Italy

So my ranking based on last Saturday's GF with these three is: 1.Estonia 2. Israel 3. Sweden 4. Italy

Edit. I forgot Israel, so I add it also.

 

[Semra]

So tell me, lets say you are juror, you are not a eurofan, you are called as a professional to do your job. Lets say Cha cha cha isnt competing, as you are fan.
You have Loreen with Tattoo, Israel, Italy, and Estonia. You have to rank them on the vocals, the mainstream hit potential of the song, the peformance, the originality, and the overall impression they leave on you. Who would you put as your #1?
I can ( personally ) see clearly as water why they all went unanimously for it, wheres the other '' jury songs '' failed to be as consistent ( for example, some jurors would prefer Israel's polished performance over Estonia's unoriginal track, while other would go more for Alika's vocals ). But Tattoo had no cons for the jurors, her entry was the perfect jury bait

I love Loreen, but the song to me is not original at all. Her vocals are (often) wonderful, but she's absolutely not alone in this department. And is mainstream hit potential listed in jury instructions? If they are, I don't like it. That would mean artsy performances have no chance no matter how amazing they are. If I was a juror I would put songs like Armenia first, so... I guess I'm out of touch. To me she (as an example) also fits all the boxes you mentioned. More original, for sure. Loreen is not the only one.

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

I love Loreen, but the song to me is not original at all

You are entitled to believe that, but combined with the staging concept, her styling etc, dont you at least consider it more original than Israel, Estonia and Italy?

 

[Semra]

Does Noa have a great vocal capacity than Loreen? Did Unicorn leave you a stronger impression than Tattoo? And does unicorn have the same hit potential with Tattoo?

There are people who don't like Loreen's singing style. I do, but it's not universal. I, as said in another answer to you, didn't know hit potential was clearly stated in jury instructions. I often support ethnic or art performances so if true, I don't like that instruction.

I do not oppose Loreen winning the jury vote. It's just with "how much"? But there is a bias for Nordic entries (esp. Sweden) and I just want to be honest about that. I grew up in Sweden, love Sweden dearly and have no reason to be biased myself.

 

[Semra]

You are entitled to believe that, but combined with the staging concept, her styling etc, dont you at least consider it more original than Israel, Estonia and Italy?

Yes. I had her before all of them in my ranking But then again, other acts before Loreen...

 

[Ezio]

I think Finland could take the crown in the Top 250 charts end of this year.

 

[ArmpitOfEurope]

I think Finland could take the crown in the Top 250 charts end of this year.

And then Chanel fans and Kaarija fans will have another thing in common!

 

[Ezio]

I am both

And then Chanel fans and Kaarija fans will have another thing in common!

 

[theditz83]

Okay Eurovision fandom, I'm signing out of this section of the forum now and will see those of you that don't take part in NSC/WV when the 2024 season properly kicks off.

My final thought that I'll leave here along with my congratulations to Loreen - I'm just so delighted that all of this negativity towards her win didn't come in 2012 when she won with Euphoria since we'd have potentially been deprived of this amazing performance. Käärijä was great, he really brought me joy - but I'm delighted to see Loreen triumph after her performance at MF brought me to tears. The woman is a legend