ESC United Mod Team
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Sweden SWEDEN 2023 - Loreen - Tattoo
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ArmpitOfEurope
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I agree! I really do. Maybe a 70% tele and 30% jury system would be better.
But for how the system it is now, she just had the stronger package
Andromache
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I just had to make an account after what happened last night and after seeing the reactions online. I deleted my old account because I needed a break from the Internet.
Honestly, I'm happy she won and I think the best performance and song won. I also think it's a good thing for Eurovision in general just like Duncans victory. Keiino are popular in the bubble but his song was much more popular outside of Eurovision and Arcade was a good promotion for Eurovision. Tattoo did well in the charts and radios before the GF and even the german radios play it and they rarely play Eurovision songs.
As much as I love Finland I have to say I was really annoyed by his fans to the point that I started rooting for Loreen. Reddit, Twitter, Youtube. There was so much hate for Loreen/Sweden even before the GF. Like Reddit for example is a hell hole if you like the swedish entry. Sweden gets a lot of hate from a part of the community because they do well with the juries and they prefer to send "generic" pop songs but the thing is they often do well with the general public, too. Frans song for example was played in the radios and became a moderate hit. They're obviously doing something right.
I'm just tired of these attacks against Sweden to the point that I think that maybe Sweden should withdraw for a while and let some grass grow over it. Maybe I'm just a bit overdramatic right now. They don't need Eurovision. Sweden is a pop music powerhouse, Melfest just like Sanremo has great ratings even without Eurovision and their music is often popular outside of their country, too. Instead of attacking Sweden every year some countries should ask themselves why their entries are not doing as well as Sweden. Some broadcasters simply don't care about Eurovision and give it 0 energy, meanwhile Sweden shows great passion every year.
I'm glad the juries are a thing even though I don't always agree with their results. But last night they chose the right winner imo and I'm also glad they gave Noa and Marco their flowers. Cha Cha Cha was a bop but I personally thought his performance wasn't that great and it wasn't the best song either.
Honestly, I'm happy she won and I think the best performance and song won. I also think it's a good thing for Eurovision in general just like Duncans victory. Keiino are popular in the bubble but his song was much more popular outside of Eurovision and Arcade was a good promotion for Eurovision. Tattoo did well in the charts and radios before the GF and even the german radios play it and they rarely play Eurovision songs.
As much as I love Finland I have to say I was really annoyed by his fans to the point that I started rooting for Loreen. Reddit, Twitter, Youtube. There was so much hate for Loreen/Sweden even before the GF. Like Reddit for example is a hell hole if you like the swedish entry. Sweden gets a lot of hate from a part of the community because they do well with the juries and they prefer to send "generic" pop songs but the thing is they often do well with the general public, too. Frans song for example was played in the radios and became a moderate hit. They're obviously doing something right.
I'm just tired of these attacks against Sweden to the point that I think that maybe Sweden should withdraw for a while and let some grass grow over it. Maybe I'm just a bit overdramatic right now. They don't need Eurovision. Sweden is a pop music powerhouse, Melfest just like Sanremo has great ratings even without Eurovision and their music is often popular outside of their country, too. Instead of attacking Sweden every year some countries should ask themselves why their entries are not doing as well as Sweden. Some broadcasters simply don't care about Eurovision and give it 0 energy, meanwhile Sweden shows great passion every year.
I'm glad the juries are a thing even though I don't always agree with their results. But last night they chose the right winner imo and I'm also glad they gave Noa and Marco their flowers. Cha Cha Cha was a bop but I personally thought his performance wasn't that great and it wasn't the best song either.
HayashiM
Veteran
I am a fan of both, though yeah, I am a bit happier with Loreen's win.
Sure, the gap is unheard of - caused by quite a few reasons.
1. Televote only semis, causing the juries to have slightly less choice than they used to.
2. This got further strenghtened by the general lack of strong jury contenders. Imagine the
sending Space Man this year and coming up with Voilà. 's juryscore would have severly suffered (as would have Kääriä who still got slightly more jury points than was generally expected).3. ...instead, the big 5 did not really do what it was in theory supposed to do under the new system: take advantage of their PQ and send a strong jurybait.
instead took a gamble on the televote and it did not pay off. again forgot that radiofriendliness needs to be backed up by a competent performer which Mae didn't turn out to be. and tried, but got stuck half way. Only succeded.All of this caused that Loreen's advantage was certainly humongous, but I can't say it would be undeserved. She would not have had it in 2021 or 2022, simply because of the stronger jury competition back then.
Nobody is arguing that Tattoo shouldn't have won the jury vote or that they're surprised it did but the problem is that the margin was too huge for people's personal taste as you pointed out.
ArmpitOfEurope
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She still gathered less jury points than Kaarija televote points tho. Kaarija lost because Loreen impressed the televoters more than Kaarija the jurors.
PollyWantsACracker
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The issue here is not that Loreen won with high jury votes margin, nor that she won coming second in televote.
The issue here is that she is not a winner according to televote of all 37 participating countries and the rest of the world.
She didn't get a single 12 from televote and she is the first winner of Eurovision who hadn't convinced neither of the participating countries' audience that she's supposed to win.
On top of that, only 8 out of 37 countries had given her next highest grade, a 10.
This way of winning should not be possible according to any rules because from the POV of the audience that:
1. Finances Eurovision through contributions to public broadcasters
2. Buys pricy tickets
3. Spends money on absurdly pricy voting system;
such winner is not a legitimate winner.
That's all.
The topic is not who had a better song, was it Finland who was supposed to be win, but why is it possible at all to win in such way a contest which produces content and a product that is consumed primarily by the audience and its preferences, which in the end turn out to be irrelevant from the producer's POV.
If this a contest for music professionals, then organize it as classic music contests are organized. In closed concert halls, where only contestants' family members and professors come, and where jurors listen and rate the performers directly on place, and there's no media to broadcast it on TV.
ESC 2023 turned out to be Polish National Contest 2023. With my due respect.
The issue here is that she is not a winner according to televote of all 37 participating countries and the rest of the world.
She didn't get a single 12 from televote and she is the first winner of Eurovision who hadn't convinced neither of the participating countries' audience that she's supposed to win.
On top of that, only 8 out of 37 countries had given her next highest grade, a 10.
This way of winning should not be possible according to any rules because from the POV of the audience that:
1. Finances Eurovision through contributions to public broadcasters
2. Buys pricy tickets
3. Spends money on absurdly pricy voting system;
such winner is not a legitimate winner.
That's all.
The topic is not who had a better song, was it Finland who was supposed to be win, but why is it possible at all to win in such way a contest which produces content and a product that is consumed primarily by the audience and its preferences, which in the end turn out to be irrelevant from the producer's POV.
If this a contest for music professionals, then organize it as classic music contests are organized. In closed concert halls, where only contestants' family members and professors come, and where jurors listen and rate the performers directly on place, and there's no media to broadcast it on TV.
ESC 2023 turned out to be Polish National Contest 2023. With my due respect.
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gingerale
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I wonder what kind of Indie record Loreen is doing next.
Bmbriga
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Jury voting is not televote where you're giving just one vote with your phone and if don't like it you give this same vote to of 25 countries.
This is why songs that people love or hate do good in televote.
Tatoo is maybe boring, generic and heard many times before, but it's an OK song that probably got points from every juror.
She could have theoretically landslided jury without getting a single 12 of even one member of the jury, too. There's 5 of them and if they all gave Loreen 7, 8, 10... points, but one one gave Israel 12 and some other thought "this unicorn thing is ridiculous" and gave it 0 or "is he really screaming cha cha cha?", in the end Tatoo with two 8s and 10 and two 7s is going to end up with 12 points.
People just need to get over it.
And I say that as person who doesn't even like the song.
Sometimes winner doesn't winn jury nor televote category, and I'm fine with that. Well, one was "hated" by jury, another by public, so this third one that was second choice for both categories is obviously a winner.
IMO It's actually a better outcome than a drama we have today, but it is what it is.
This is why songs that people love or hate do good in televote.
Tatoo is maybe boring, generic and heard many times before, but it's an OK song that probably got points from every juror.
She could have theoretically landslided jury without getting a single 12 of even one member of the jury, too. There's 5 of them and if they all gave Loreen 7, 8, 10... points, but one one gave Israel 12 and some other thought "this unicorn thing is ridiculous" and gave it 0 or "is he really screaming cha cha cha?", in the end Tatoo with two 8s and 10 and two 7s is going to end up with 12 points.
People just need to get over it.
And I say that as person who doesn't even like the song.
Sometimes winner doesn't winn jury nor televote category, and I'm fine with that. Well, one was "hated" by jury, another by public, so this third one that was second choice for both categories is obviously a winner.
IMO It's actually a better outcome than a drama we have today, but it is what it is.
spinachpie
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I think they do understand why Loreen placed so high. Well Eurofans do. She is incredible live, supreme performer etc.
It just shows what is wrong with a 50/50 split. This is a fan contest at the end of the day. That should be the main focus/draw.
I appreciate why the jury is there (sort of). But they have to have a lower weighting.
The powerful ethnic/unique/own language songs of the last few years that score SO HIGH with the public and yet perform poorly with the juries in comparison don't sit well. Ukraine 2021, Norway 2019, Finland 2023, Moldova 2022 etc etc. And then the over jury scoring of the mundane, radio friendly/vocal songs (e.g. Sweden every year, Austria 2019, Estonia this year, North Macedonia 2019 etc)
The show is for us at the end of the day, not juries.
BorisBubbles
Veteran
Not my winner, but I can respect it. I honestly feel like Loreen's victory is more of a product of the fanbase than anything else. She won Melfest, the fans immediately imprinted on her because du'h, she's Loreen, Tattoo then hit the charts, got media attention and just sorta snowballed from there.
Not to discount her performance though, which was good and well-rounded. She really did manage to deliver a catchy song with appealing visuals and emotional storytelling. Not at all surprised the juries lapped it up. Objectively, she probably was the best in terms of song.
idk. It's not the win Eurovision needed, but it's the one we got. Hopefully we get a better one next year. Onward to better tidings!
final verdict: points in the poll :-).
Not to discount her performance though, which was good and well-rounded. She really did manage to deliver a catchy song with appealing visuals and emotional storytelling. Not at all surprised the juries lapped it up. Objectively, she probably was the best in terms of song.
idk. It's not the win Eurovision needed, but it's the one we got. Hopefully we get a better one next year. Onward to better tidings!
final verdict:
points in the poll :-).Ajeje Brazorf
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Come on now, one day has passed, but let's admit it: Sweden would have won with 284 points in the Juries and there is no way in hell she wouldn't have received it after that performance. So, was Tattoo overrated by juries? Maybe, yes. But it would have won anyway, because I don't think Käärja deserved more jury points, honestly. That's the point.
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gigi_copp3
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The pattern is clear for .
2010-2013-2021: bad result outside top 10
2011-2014-2022: top 3/top 4
2012-2015-2023: win
.2010-2013-2021: bad result outside top 10
2011-2014-2022: top 3/top 4
2012-2015-2023: win
lolita
Active member
Yeah, I noticed that, too. I wanted somebody else to notice it, too, because I wasn't sure if I am right, because I can not remember all results so well.The pattern is clear for
2010-2013-2021: bad result outside top 10
2011-2014-2022: top 3/top 4
2012-2015-2023: win
lolita
Active member
This
This perfectly sums it up when it comes to all my feelings about this song, performance and winner.Not my winner, but I can respect it. I honestly feel like Loreen's victory is more of a product of the fanbase than anything else. She won Melfest, the fans immediately imprinted on her because du'h, she's Loreen, Tattoo then hit the charts, got media attention and just sorta snowballed from there.
Not to discount her performance though, which was good and well-rounded. She really did manage to deliver a catchy song with appealing visuals and emotional storytelling. Not at all surprised the juries lapped it up. Objectively, she probably was the best in terms of song.
idk. It's not the win Eurovision needed, but it's the one we got. Hopefully we get a better one next year. Onward to better tidings!
final verdict:
PolarFoxxie.
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Yes double crown winner babe. Haters Gona hate hate hate
If I have to be no-filter with you guys, Tattoo is not really a good song songwriting-wise. It's structured and written like most Melfest B-sides, like a rushed demo, but glorified with production tings and tangs so it appears great.
What's an objectively better song, is Cornelia's Hold Me Closer from 2022. They crafted the song based on Cornelia's singing style, and lyrics-wise you know all the sections contextually makes one story.
What's an objectively better song, is Cornelia's Hold Me Closer from 2022. They crafted the song based on Cornelia's singing style, and lyrics-wise you know all the sections contextually makes one story.
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midnightsun
Veteran
Azerbaijan did win the televote iirc?
midnightsun
Veteran
Swedens Momentum over the last few Years (9 Jury Top3s and 2 Top10s since their Renaissance 2011) is pretty impressive.
The only impressive here is the incredible amount of Sweden doing better with the juries than the televote, sometimes outstandingly better with the juries than televote.
popavapeur
Well-known member
Sweden/Scandinavia are the powerhouses of pop music, a lot of the hits we hear on an everyday basis are written by norwegians/swedes and basically, that's what they send to the ESC. That's a no brainer for me why they're performing so well with jurors even when I don't like the songs (2015, 2016,2020 for example).
This year was special as well as she basically was the only candidate for the jury win and as others stated, she could have gotten even more points. Italy wasn't on the radar of the bubble and they reached top 5, it tells a lot about the opponents of Sweden yesterday. Marco deserved 100% its score in my opinion but the fact we didn't think about Due Vite as a jury contender is because the song wasn't really popular for a reason, it was just not in the majority's taste.
I don't get why not having a single televote 12pts is a problem. Like being second in a lot of countries (8 to be precise and also 8 eights) is pretty good and as we don't know the volumes we can't say if there was a huge gap between the first and the second in any given country.
Basically if there's 2000 people voting for Finland and 1895 for Sweden.. it's kinda the same to me ? but one got 12 and the other 10. That could also be 2000 and 1000 as well, bigger or lesser numbers. Finland totally smashed the televote though and rightfully so as it was tailored for the audience but having a strong set of 10pts as Sweden had is great as well. People liked Tattoo, they voted for it too.
This year was special as well as she basically was the only candidate for the jury win and as others stated, she could have gotten even more points. Italy wasn't on the radar of the bubble and they reached top 5, it tells a lot about the opponents of Sweden yesterday. Marco deserved 100% its score in my opinion but the fact we didn't think about Due Vite as a jury contender is because the song wasn't really popular for a reason, it was just not in the majority's taste.
I don't get why not having a single televote 12pts is a problem. Like being second in a lot of countries (8 to be precise and also 8 eights) is pretty good and as we don't know the volumes we can't say if there was a huge gap between the first and the second in any given country.
Basically if there's 2000 people voting for Finland and 1895 for Sweden.. it's kinda the same to me ? but one got 12 and the other 10. That could also be 2000 and 1000 as well, bigger or lesser numbers. Finland totally smashed the televote though and rightfully so as it was tailored for the audience but having a strong set of 10pts as Sweden had is great as well. People liked Tattoo, they voted for it too.