Post Eurovision Discussion

Matt · May 7, 2021

GRAND FINAL LIVE

DAY 1 - 16 LIVE STREAMS

Lance Esgard · May 24, 2021

GermanBango said:
...there was also a surprising amount of praise:
"High quality entertainment" - "Such a diverse field" - "Very exciting voting"

That's good to hear!

GermanBango · May 24, 2021

I love these videos tbh - shows what Eurovision is really about: A party without borders.

Etanna · May 24, 2021

Czech media started reporting about the drug rumours featuring the phrase that the EBU is looking into this controversy. The EBU really messed this up, they should have firmly supported Måneskin. This just feeds the rumours... I hope the scandal will die down quickly, especially if Damiano really didn't take any drugs.

By the way, how come there isn't more footage of what they were doing? There must have been cameras everywhere and people filming on their phones. At that point, Italy was already doing quite well in the jury, wasn't it?

Miloutchi · May 24, 2021

Etanna said:
Czech media started reporting about the drug rumours featuring the phrase that the EBU is looking into this controversy. The EBU really messed this up, they should have firmly supported Måneskin. This just feeds the rumours... I hope the scandal will die down quickly, especially if Damiano really didn't take any drugs.

By the way, how come there isn't more footage of what they were doing? There must have been cameras everywhere and people filming on their phones. At that point, Italy was already doing quite well in the jury, wasn't it?

Totally agree. Even if Måneskin gives a negative drug test now, there will always be people who believe it is all a sham and this drug thing will never go away.

crashworld · May 24, 2021

There are issues with the Dutch votes not going through due to one of the mobile networks being affected during the night.

🇳🇱 Netherlands: EBU Confirms Issue With Handling Dutch Televote in Grand Final - Eurovoix

The European Broadcasting Union has confirmed that its Dutch service provider had issues handling the Dutch televote in the Grand Final of Eurovision 2021.

eurovoix.com

Amethyst · May 24, 2021

Etanna said:
Czech media started reporting about the drug rumours featuring the phrase that the EBU is looking into this controversy. The EBU really messed this up, they should have firmly supported Måneskin. This just feeds the rumours... I hope the scandal will die down quickly, especially if Damiano really didn't take any drugs.

By the way, how come there isn't more footage of what they were doing? There must have been cameras everywhere and people filming on their phones. At that point, Italy was already doing quite well in the jury, wasn't it?

I know people are trying to defuse the situation but everytime I read or heard people say "even if" (not you, in general) I want to scream xgaah

- there is no IF. It is as bad as those thinking he was mimicking the gesture to act like a rocker (and call him full of himself ) while he was just reacting to those 12 points+the broken glass.

He did nothing and everyone can see it from the footage already available. His hands are visible and closed in fists while his face is far away from the table. I mean, he has a big nose but not a vacuum cleaner, ffs. :lol:

Honestly, I don't understand why all of this is happening and why people think it is okay to try to ruin a 20years old's career over nothing.

We didn't need an example of what they talked about in their lyrics ( prejudices, judgmental people talking about things they don't know/understand) thank you very much. xexcuseme

Zeus · May 24, 2021

In general, I am pro-jury. Said it multiple times earlier. And also, in general, I think they did what they should do. Good scores for France and Switzerland, not destroying Italy too much, etc. Maybe only class acts imo as Portugal and Belgium deserved even more, but okay.

But several things are just really bad:
- Favorites obviously not giving points to other favorites in the final
- In the semis, you can see that juries are outranking competitors. For example: a juror from Malta placed Cyprus 15/15 and Sweden 14/15. And in the final? Sweden 5/25 and Cyprus 2/25. Really..? What a change..
- Politics. I get that in Cyprus you may get the songs from Greece more easily than from UK and Sweden, but come on..These things happens too much still. You can be a juror for Eurovision, what a privilege. You get criteria from the organisation and you should at least try to be the most objective as you can.
- Corruption or idk, moodswings. For example: juror A from Poland placed Moldova 2/16 in their semi and in the final 24/26. Come on.. And you see these kind of changes more.

The solution? Idk. I mean, in the general results, we still see North Macedonia doing well in 2019 and Switzerland and France in 2021. That's correct imo. But the corruption and the politics are really annoying.

Maybe I would suggest: go fully snob. Get rid of juries from all these countries. Try to create a top 100 worldwide with respected producers, songwriters, respected, older artists, et cetera. Let them give their points and rankings. And turn the jury influence down to 30-40%, so that the public vote has the majority still. Make it than a really snobbish-check and give the majority back to the public vote.

spinachpie · May 24, 2021

I hope we remove the backing tracks next year. Some acts, in particular Lithuania, it was so obvious there was lip sync.

Carian · May 24, 2021

Oh, we have another scandal coming. RTV SLO is reporting that Maltese public is fuming. Ex-representative Ludwing Galea (2004) accused the Maltese delegation in an open letter of inflating the actual chances of the Maltese win by paying for bets as well as called out the whole delegation to reveal how much money has been spent for bets, ads and generating clics/trends on YT, which gave false hopes to Maltese people of winning the ESC. Basically, the problem, as noted by Galea, is that this happened already with Ira Losco in 2017.
RTV SLO's reporter and ESC connoiseur Klavdija Kopina also takes up the question of likes and dislikes in YT clips. Clearly, the most desperate countries to win invest a lot of money to overhype a song by paying people in foreign countries to click the song, which leads to the trending effect. Analysts are said to have discovered that the biggest discrepancies between likes/dislikes have been detected for Malta, Georgia, North Macedonia, Germany, Denmark, Poland, Sweden and Switzerland (please, note that there is no Moldova on this list, as some people have been very vocal these days that Kirkorov bought votes for Natalia), while on the other hand there are no discrepancies for Ukraine, Russia, Italy, Cyprus and Latvia. Basically, we are talking about paid views which generates hype, high spot in betting odds, but eventually leads to flops and huge disappointment.
Yes, one more interesting thing: the article raises also the question/problem of "blogs" (Wiwibloggs is named by name) that are also paid to generate hype, turn our attention to certain songs, so that these appear "fan favorite" and "hot to win". These "fan blogs and sites" (ESC United is not problematized nor mentioned, thank god) are thus problem in itself and their practices are not properly represented to the audiences.
Now, what I would like to add to all this is that I do not find a problem with generating views, paying Wiwibloggs to hype a song etc. My problem is that betting odds and different statistics can and surely do influence the jury votes. I know that the common viewers who tune in on Saturday's final usually do not care or watch what is going on before the ESC, but juries surely are paying attention. You know, like political polls can create opinions and influence how people vote, I am sure that YT views, hype, and betting odds also influence the juries' votes. I am sure that many members of juries do want to please "people", but as this article on RTV SLO now analyses the whole matter, the question is: is it really people behind these odds, YT views and independent fan-websites?
So, to sum it up, I was right this whole time. Would Albina qualify if she was as much hyped as Malta? Since Albina suffered in jury voting most, I'd say yes. Finally, this also explains why Romania (which was way more hyped before the show than Slovenia and Macedonia) finished in jury votes before Slovenia, although EVERYONE agreed that Ana's vocals are from outer space. So... I think we have a true scandal here and some unpleasant questions need to be asked as well as answered... Good day folks.

PS: Why have I mentioned Albina first? Cuz she missed out finals for 5 points against Norway, the clics of which do not add up. That is why Albina and Croatia missed the finals.

Carian · May 24, 2021

And just one more thing: Slovenian audience did not like Destiny's song. All in all, thanx Destiny for bringing the real problem to the fore!

theEUREVOLUTION · May 24, 2021

Hi all,

First time user here! Just wanted to post a link to my new YouTube video about Maneskin's win and its hopeful impact on the contest. Much love to you all xheart

midnightsun · May 24, 2021

Carian said:
Oh, we have another scandal coming. RTV SLO is reporting that Maltese public is fuming. Ex-representative Ludwing Galea (2004) accused the Maltese delegation in an open letter of inflating the actual chances of the Maltese win by paying for bets as well as called out the whole delegation to reveal how much money has been spent for bets, ads and generating clics/trends on YT, which gave false hopes to Maltese people of winning the ESC. Basically, the problem, as noted by Galea, is that this happened already with Ira Losco in 2017.
RTV SLO's reporter and ESC connoiseur Klavdija Kopina also takes up the question of likes and dislikes in YT clips. Clearly, the most desperate countries to win invest a lot of money to overhype a song by paying people in foreign countries to click the song, which leads to the trending effect. Analysts are said to have discovered that the biggest discrepancies between likes/dislikes have been detected for Malta, Georgia, North Macedonia, Germany, Denmark, Poland, Sweden and Switzerland (please, note that there is no Moldova on this list, as some people have been very vocal these days that Kirkorov bought votes for Natalia), while on the other hand there are no discrepancies for Ukraine, Russia, Italy, Cyprus and Latvia. Basically, we are talking about paid views which generates hype, high spot in betting odds, but eventually leads to flops and huge disappointment.

He‘s right. We’ve been saying the whole time that these desperate over the top attempts to force Malta to win including aggressive advertising would be hurting Malta in the end. Yes, their song was good, Destiny was good, but the performance and staging lacked winner vibes. And on top of all of this they hyped Destiny so much that she probably believed firmly in victory - heart breaking to see her disappointed.

Carian · May 24, 2021

midnightsun said:
He‘s right. We’ve been saying the whole time that these desperate over the top attempts to force Malta to win including aggressive advertising would be hurting Malta in the end. Yes, their song was good, Destiny was good, but the performance and staging lacked winner vibes. And on top of all of this they hyped Destiny so much that she probably believed firmly in victory - heart breaking to see her disappointed.

Yeah, but the problem is much bigger in my opinion. It was not only Malta inflating the expectations of their people, also other countries did the same - maybe not for sake of winning, but certainly at least to make it to the finals. This whole news explains not only the Maltese flops this year and Ira Losco's, but also the Sweedish flops that left everyone struck with awe and shock how it was possible that Benjamin Grosso flopped so badly with the televote. I could never understand what juries saw in his singing or staging that deserved so many points. Now I can finally explain it to myself. Juries were influenced by betting odds and false hype and YT views. This also explains why your Jendrik was first chanceless, then suddenly he was cute and fun and should do so great in the finals, because his live performance is such a fun and he is so convincing on stage, yet then in the end he got ZERO points.

Think people, how many such examples we have seen, when we knew that even our favorites stood very little chances to win, yet they were hyped by various blogs and betting odds and Spotify lists as the next ESC winner. Yeah, this had little or no impact at all on general viewership, but I think these practices are problematic as they surely influence how juries vote. For instance, this year, in our Slovenian jury, there were Maja Keuc and Raay (the male part of Maraaya duo from 2015), who are both admittedly huge ESC fans. Do you believe they weren't influenced by the news and fake ratings and betting odds that certain songs had better chances to win? Of course, they were under wrong impressions and this could influence their voting. So, here is the main problem in my view - how to make sure that juries vote independently and free from these "fake news" generated by various opinion-makers? I have no solution to this problem except if we spread this info and make them aware what these "influencers" are doing and that these pre-ESC hypes are irrelevant and should be discarded. Nothing else can be done.

seagull · May 24, 2021

The Måneskin thing is nuts. Of all the places to take drugs, the LAST place people would do it is a busy hall in front of people and cameras who would likely have a problem with that. And apparently, their word is not sufficient, because of course, it isn't, the rockers won and rockers are apparently wild and dangerous. How pathetic is that?

I do think the WAY this contest is reported in non-professional media sources is stirring up a bunch of trouble in the long run. They don't have journalistic standards to maintain and are commercial or at least sponsored enterprises but also don't have quite the same level of regulation that an actual broadcaster or newspaper can expect. They don't have to report factual truth or disclose when something is an opinion or not.

Fan culture IS important, that's what this is about, sharing our likes, dislikes, favourite moments, commiserating with fans from countries whose entries didn't make it, or bombed in the Final etc. But these aren't fans, not anymore. If you have a media pass to behind the scenes at the contest, if you are getting access to the artists and delegations, you aren't a fan blogging about your personal opinions and whether you would like to see X country get through or Y, you are a member of the media and you should be behaving like that. You should be structuring your videos so that if there is someone watching who doesn't want to see a snippet of rehearsal or hear about what's actually physically on stage and wants to be surprised but does want to know whether the general vibe is positive for their country or their favourite entry, you should either disclose there will be spoilers in the video and look away or you can jump on to X time-stamp in the video. You should also be making an effort to be as open about your ties to delegations or broadcasters as possible as you go so viewers know that you might be a little bit biased.

I think a lot of the Malta thing has everything to do with Destiny being Destiny. She's a big deal within the ESC bubble, but as much as I did enjoy 'Je Me Casse', at no point did I think that was a winner, especially with that staging, in fact, I'd have been a bit mad with it winning because quite frankly, it's not the best song or staging and would have bought a win through name-recognition, which would bode very badly for the Contest going forward, especially for countries that either can't draw big names to compete or who have other limitations like funding. The general public has no idea outside of Malta who she is (or who Ira Losco is for that matter) and it's in their hands-on Grand Final night, even if they might have been influenced a bit by the more conventional media sources like TV coverage. I suspect San Marino was heavily overrated because Senhit was a returning contestant and the whole Flo Rida thing and Norway would be in the same boat if KEiiNO had got the spot instead of TIX and I thought 'Spirit in the Sky' a little bit overrated, I'd have preferred that it went the whole hog with its Sami aspect rather than just give us a cheesetastic pop-dance confection with a bit of Sami in there for colour. They have been hyped to the sky by the fansites because they are KEiiNO and then bomb hard probably.

Whatever the case, this is a pretty dysfunctional situation.

GermanBango · May 24, 2021

Meant to post this here:

Here are all the finalists ranked by their average televoting rank to get a better look at how good/bad countries really did:

1

(3,1)
2

(4,3)
3

(4,7)
4

(5,7)
5

(6,8)
6

(7,3)
7

(7,9)
8

(9,4)
9

(10,9)
10

(11,3)

11

(11,5)
12

(12,7)
13

(13,5)
14

(13,8)
15

(14)
16

(14,7)
17

(15,2)
18

(16,7)
19

(17,1)
20

(17,3)
21

(17,9)
22

(18,3)
23

(19,4)
24

(22,9)
25

(23,2)
26

(23,4)

I lowkey wish that this was the actual result haha.

Carian · May 24, 2021

seagull said:
The Måneskin thing is nuts. Of all the places to take drugs, the LAST place people would do it is a busy hall in front of people and cameras who would likely have a problem with that. And apparently, their word is not sufficient, because of course, it isn't, the rockers won and rockers are apparently wild and dangerous. How pathetic is that?

I do think the WAY this contest is reported in non-professional media sources is stirring up a bunch of trouble in the long run. They don't have journalistic standards to maintain and are commercial or at least sponsored enterprises but also don't have quite the same level of regulation that an actual broadcaster or newspaper can expect. They don't have to report factual truth or disclose when something is an opinion or not.

Fan culture IS important, that's what this is about, sharing our likes, dislikes, favourite moments, commiserating with fans from countries whose entries didn't make it, or bombed in the Final etc. But these aren't fans, not anymore. If you have a media pass to behind the scenes at the contest, if you are getting access to the artists and delegations, you aren't a fan blogging about your personal opinions and whether you would like to see X country get through or Y, you are a member of the media and you should be behaving like that. You should be structuring your videos so that if there is someone watching who doesn't want to see a snippet of rehearsal or hear about what's actually physically on stage and wants to be surprised but does want to know whether the general vibe is positive for their country or their favourite entry, you should either disclose there will be spoilers in the video and look away or you can jump on to X time-stamp in the video. You should also be making an effort to be as open about your ties to delegations or broadcasters as possible as you go so viewers know that you might be a little bit biased.

I think a lot of the Malta thing has everything to do with Destiny being Destiny. She's a big deal within the ESC bubble, but as much as I did enjoy 'Je Me Casse', at no point did I think that was a winner, especially with that staging, in fact, I'd have been a bit mad with it winning because quite frankly, it's not the best song or staging and would have bought a win through name-recognition, which would bode very badly for the Contest going forward, especially for countries that either can't draw big names to compete or who have other limitations like funding. The general public has no idea outside of Malta who she is (or who Ira Losco is for that matter) and it's in their hands-on Grand Final night, even if they might have been influenced a bit by the more conventional media sources like TV coverage. I suspect San Marino was heavily overrated because Senhit was a returning contestant and the whole Flo Rida thing and Norway would be in the same boat if KEiiNO had got the spot instead of TIX and I thought 'Spirit in the Sky' a little bit overrated, I'd have preferred that it went the whole hog with its Sami aspect rather than just give us a cheesetastic pop-dance confection with a bit of Sami in there for colour. They have been hyped to the sky by the fansites because they are KEiiNO and then bomb hard probably.

Whatever the case, this is a pretty dysfunctional situation.

I totally agree with your proposal that the so-called fan-website and bloggs should disclose their ties to delegations or at least rename their blogs to something else, because they are right now deceiving their audience (at least a little bit). Wiwibloggs is not only a website that reports news, but it is also actively participating in the selection of songs for artists. I was literally shocked when that boss guy from Wiwiblogg revealed that he was asked to help to choose the Maraaya's entry for our national selection in 2015. Back then, he and Dewan even said that maybe next year they will come to Ljubljana and report about EMA. But this thing never came up ever again. Why? My opinion is that no-one actually offered them any benefits from doing so. Wiwibloggs is known to have close ties to Kirkorov as the other year they reported that they were invited to his luxurious ESC parties of his protegees. I bet that also Sweden pays them or rewards them somehow for covering the whole MF so extensively. Anyways, there are a lot of things that were out there, known to us, but did not make any sense up until now. However, after reading this news today, suddenly it all makes sense. Blogging about ESC can be obviously very "beneficial".

As for Italy, did anyone seriously think he took drugs during the show on live TV? It was clearly visible that his nose was way to low, basically under the table's surface, so I don't understand who thought he was taking anything.

FilipFromSweden · May 24, 2021

Takeaways from this year:

- This was a great year for the future of Eurovision. High quality of entries, exciting finale, smooth hosting. It also benefits the contest that a winner that's not so ''textbook Eurovision'' won

- There is no way we are ever going back to the old voting system, the voting segment had everyone on the edge of their seats and there were too many great moments produced, such as Ukraine and Finland scoring high and Malta getting a lukewarm score. You would never have gotten such moments in the voting of 2013 for example.

- ''Juries vote for Sweden because it's Sweden'' is officially dead. Tusse won the international jury vote in our NF with a good margin and yet the Eurovision juries ranked him as 17th. Out of the 46 jury points he got, 17 were from Nordic countries.

- Måns needs to stop taking up so much space

- The jury system is much needed. In the televote, Sweden gave 12 to Norway, 10 to Iceland and 8 to Finland. The Swedish jury did not put a Nordic country in the top 3.

- Host countries should stop trying to do some over-the-top comedy sketch, like the flops we saw in 2017 and 2018. The more subtle and down-sized comedy we saw this year, from Nikki, was funny and felt like enough. Let the entries be the entertainment.

- Using the contest's history remains one of the strongest aspects of Eurovision, I loved the artists that got to reflect on their past win.

Carian · May 24, 2021

GermanBango said:
Meant to post this here:

Here are all the finalists ranked by their average televoting rank to get a better look at how good/bad countries really did:

1 (3,1)
2 (4,3)
3 (4,7)
4 (5,7)
5 (6,8)
6 (7,3)
7 (7,9)
8 (9,4)
9 (10,9)
10 (11,3)

11 (11,5)
12 (12,7)
13 (13,5)
14 (13,8)
15 (14)
16 (14,7)
17 (15,2)
18 (16,7)
19 (17,1)
20 (17,3)
21 (17,9)
22 (18,3)
23 (19,4)
24 (22,9)
25 (23,2)
26 (23,4)

I lowkey wish that this was the actual result haha.

I agree with this ranking as it reflects perfectly the taste of Europe as a whole and it looks very realistic. As I said, juries should go and points should be awarded to every song, as someone suggested it few days ago. Not only would be ZERO's gone this way, but also a much more realistic picture would be obtained who was really liked by people and who was not.

mauve · May 24, 2021

GermanBango said:
Meant to post this here:

Here are all the finalists ranked by their average televoting rank to get a better look at how good/bad countries really did:

1 (3,1)
2 (4,3)
3 (4,7)
4 (5,7)
5 (6,8)
6 (7,3)
7 (7,9)
8 (9,4)
9 (10,9)
10 (11,3)

11 (11,5)
12 (12,7)
13 (13,5)
14 (13,8)
15 (14)
16 (14,7)
17 (15,2)
18 (16,7)
19 (17,1)
20 (17,3)
21 (17,9)
22 (18,3)
23 (19,4)
24 (22,9)
25 (23,2)
26 (23,4)

I lowkey wish that this was the actual result haha.

So much better! This way, I love the top 4 so much! And Germany looks a lot better as well.

GermanBango · May 24, 2021

The juries are indeed direly needed when countries like

only make it to the televoting Top 10 because of their neighbors and diaspora while actually only placing ~15th on average. I mean they got 73% of their points from just 5 countries (

)

Post Eurovision Discussion

Admin Schmadmin

GRAND FINAL LIVE

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Veteran

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

Veteran

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Veteran

Well-known member