ESC - what would you improve for the future?

[AdelAdel]

Nul Points: Amazon.co.uk: Tim Moore: Books

Whoaaaaa! 10,79 x 5 = over 50 zloty... for a book about nul points... no thanks If we count the additional fee for the book being transported from the UK, that would cost A LOT of money

 

[Mickey]

Whoaaaaa! 10,79 x 5 = over 50 zloty... for a book about nul points... no thanks If we count the additional fee for the book being transported from the UK, that would cost A LOT of money

There must be a way to get it more easily in Poland. I just lazily picked the easiest way for me. There's also used versions on that site that are much cheaper.

 

[tuorem]

NemesisNick, the list of "successful comebacks" that you wrote here reinforce my thoughts that, except Dima Bilan from Russia (well, it's not that surprising), there weren't any in the 2000s. The contest has changed a lot and I guess people had more chances to do better on the second attempt in the past.

 

[NemesisNick]

If you look back at my list, you will notice that even in the 1960s and 1970s, there weren't many "placed higher 2nd time around" artists. Back then the majority of artists I listed were placed lower on second or subsequent attempts.

What makes you think artists had more chances to do better on 2nd attempts in the past?

 

[AdelAdel]

If you look back at my list, you will notice that even in the 1960s and 1970s, there weren't many "placed higher 2nd time around" artists. Back then the majority of artists I listed were placed lower on second or subsequent attempts.

What makes you think artists had more chances to do better on 2nd attempts in the past?

They were ambitious and performed better songs than in the past? I don't know.

 

[tuorem]

If you look back at my list, you will notice that even in the 1960s and 1970s, there weren't many "placed higher 2nd time around" artists. Back then the majority of artists I listed were placed lower on second or subsequent attempts.

What makes you think artists had more chances to do better on 2nd attempts in the past?

It may be stupid, but I think that when someone wins the contest or achieves a good placing, obviously he/she was loved by the viewers. So if that person returns to the contest, because of his/her past success, the new entry will get more attention than if it was sung by a new singer. The popularity gained during the first attempt is a huge advantage for the second one.

Examples like Charlotte Perrelli saved in 2008, Chiara qualifying in 2009 with a weak effort, Niamh Kavanagh in 2010, Jedward going to the final this year with "Waterline", come to my mind. (Except Dana International last year who didn't follow the rule).

At least, it helps in most cases going to the final while I doubt these entries would have qualified with an unknown singer who had to promote the entry as well as himself/herself. Do you know what I mean?

 

[AdelAdel]

Examples like Charlotte Perrelli saved in 2008, Chiara qualifying in 2009 with a weak effort, Niamh Kavanagh in 2010, Jedward going to the final this year with "Waterline", come to my mind. (Except Dana International last year who didn't follow the rule).

All of these qualified, but they all did really bad in the final. This proves, that the public doesn't really like comebacks that much.

 

[tuorem]

All of these qualified, but they all did really bad in the final. This proves, that the public doesn't really like comebacks that much.

Yes, I agree. But I can't help myself from thinking that most of them qualified because of their names. Yeah obviously, it goes nowhere in the final.

 

[AdelAdel]

Yes, I agree. But I can't help myself from thinking that most of them qualified because of their names. Yeah obviously, it goes nowhere in the final.

There is a chance that their name helped them, but it's not a rule. Let's take this year's Engelbert Humperdinck and Anggun - they are very well known around the world, and finished at the very bottom.

 

[tuorem]

There is a chance that their name helped them, but it's not a rule. Let's take this year's Engelbert Humperdinck and Anggun - they are very well known around the world, and finished at the very bottom.

Actually, I was talking about singers that already took part in Eurovision previously. Of course, the fame alone isn't sufficient.

Even for Blue, they did actually really well with the televotes, but now that the juries have their say in the final too, well known artists have to bring something good.

 

[SnideAsides]

I think I have a solution that might help the bloc voting - a pre-voting point bonus (let's say twelve points) for songs in a language any part of the country recognises as official. Yes, Turkey and Russia would benefit some more, but so would Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, the UK, Ireland, and the Netherlands (which has English-speaking territories in the Caribbean). Belgium doesn't benefit with an English song, but between Dutch, French, and German they should be able to work something out. The full language rule won't do anything, and with the diaspora there's no way to fairly restrict votes, but... with this a country has to weigh up the benefits of singing a song people can understand and forfeiting bonus points, or taking bonus points but also taking the risk their song is good enough to overcome the language barrier.

 

[tuorem]

I think I have a solution that might help the bloc voting - a pre-voting point bonus (let's say twelve points) for songs in a language any part of the country recognises as official. Yes, Turkey and Russia would benefit some more, but so would Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, the UK, Ireland, and the Netherlands (which has English-speaking territories in the Caribbean). Belgium doesn't benefit with an English song, but between Dutch, French, and German they should be able to work something out. The full language rule won't do anything, and with the diaspora there's no way to fairly restrict votes, but... with this a country has to weigh up the benefits of singing a song people can understand and forfeiting bonus points, or taking bonus points but also taking the risk their song is good enough to overcome the language barrier.

And how would your suggestion work? Can you give me an example? Because rewarding a country that sends a song sung in its national language doesn't automatically mean that the song is musically worthy. It's brave to sing in your language but if the song is meh, it shouldn't be rewarded than better songs sung in English imo.

So the juries would be entitled to award those extra points... I really don't know if it can push countries to sing in their own language: maybe the poorest ones in terms of results (like Slovakia, Latvia, San Marino) because they're rather desperate at achieving a decent placing, but still... It won't be enough to change the trend. On the contrary, the countries that are used to do well may not feel concerned by those points since they don't need twelve more points to qualify.

Bringing the languages back without the language rule is almost impossible because most of the attempts to reach this goal wouldn't rely on musical and quality matters. A good song may be better in the country's mother tongue, while a bad song remains bad, whether it's in English or not.

Plus, I'm convinced that it wouldn't stop block voting.

 

[Matt]

I think I have a solution that might help the bloc voting - a pre-voting point bonus (let's say twelve points) for songs in a language any part of the country recognises as official. Yes, Turkey and Russia would benefit some more, but so would Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, the UK, Ireland, and the Netherlands (which has English-speaking territories in the Caribbean). Belgium doesn't benefit with an English song, but between Dutch, French, and German they should be able to work something out. The full language rule won't do anything, and with the diaspora there's no way to fairly restrict votes, but... with this a country has to weigh up the benefits of singing a song people can understand and forfeiting bonus points, or taking bonus points but also taking the risk their song is good enough to overcome the language barrier.

So Ireland & UK would get a default 12 points every year???

And how would that stop bloc voting? If everyone starts singing in their native language everyone would get 12 points therefore it's a washout.

 

[Jukica]

So Ireland & UK would get a default 12 points every year???

And how would that stop bloc voting? If everyone starts singing in their native language everyone would get 12 points therefore it's a washout.

Agree, wouldn't help a lot :/

 

[Stuff]

Since Eurovision is watched world wide, How about having a single slot for the grand finals to be voted by a "global vote" This is going to be called world's choice. Votes outside the EBU will be counted and the one with the highest non EBU vote will get to the finals. The global vote wont be existing in the finals though. Its only for a finals slot.

It has negatives though.... Lets say a person of Chinese descent represent San Marino, the whole Chinese population will vote for San Marino.

----

Or how about a Wildcard entry to be voted by the eliminated candidates themselves.

 

[thegry]

Or how about a Wildcard entry to be voted by the eliminated candidates themselves.

Now there's an idea.....

Anyway, I think that the Big5 rule should be abolished, and that all counties can vote in the semifinal(s).

 

[Stargazer]

The only thing that would stop the bloc voting is if you wouldn't be allowed to vote for the countries that are in your "pot", the ones they use for the semi final allocation draw. So, for example, during this year's ESC, Belarus, Georgia, Israel, Moldova, Russia and Ukraine wouldn't have been able to vote for one another since they were all in pot 3. Azerbaijan belongs to that pot as well.

 

[SnideAsides]

And how would your suggestion work? Can you give me an example? Because rewarding a country that sends a song sung in its national language doesn't automatically mean that the song is musically worthy. It's brave to sing in your language but if the song is meh, it shouldn't be rewarded than better songs sung in English imo.

So the juries would be entitled to award those extra points... I really don't know if it can push countries to sing in their own language: maybe the poorest ones in terms of results (like Slovakia, Latvia, San Marino) because they're rather desperate at achieving a decent placing, but still... It won't be enough to change the trend. On the contrary, the countries that are used to do well may not feel concerned by those points since they don't need twelve more points to qualify.

Bringing the languages back without the language rule is almost impossible because most of the attempts to reach this goal wouldn't rely on musical and quality matters. A good song may be better in the country's mother tongue, while a bad song remains bad, whether it's in English or not.

Plus, I'm convinced that it wouldn't stop block voting.

That's kind of my point though - we're never going to be able to stop bloc voting completely. But we can even the playing field a little to try and dilute the impact of the hundred or so votes the usual suspects receive by default from the diaspora every year. If it was only one country benefiting, I'd suggest just adding them to the Big Group and we'd be done with the whole issue. But it's not, and we need to find a way to help the smaller countries.

So, for example, the scoreboard comes up at the start of voting and the hosts explain everything, then explain that countries who sang in their own languages are awarded a bonus douze points. These points are then added at the start, before the first round of votes, and it's all done and dusted.

It's actually an advantage that the countries who are used to doing well wouldn't care about it - if everybody starts singing in their own languages, the bonus becomes pointless. And quite often the songs in native languages are those ones that finish eleventh or twelfth in the semifinals and just miss the cut. If a good native-language song makes it to the final, it tends to do fairly well (unless it's British).

Let's say the Netherlands sends a kickass song in Dutch next year. Without the bonus, it finishes a close twelfth and becomes their ninth semi-final loss in a row. With the bonus, it vaults over the bland Albanian and Ukrainian entries sung in English, and secures the tenth place in the final. It probably won't win the whole contest (because, you know, Dutch entry), but again with the bonus it could mean the difference between finishing in the bottom few and finishing in the middle of the pack.

Plus, bad songs rarely do well enough for an extra twelve points to make a difference.

 

[Yamarus]

I think Stargazer's suggestion that you cannot vote for countries in your allocated "Pot" is an interesting one. After all, those change slightly every year according to voting patterns, so why not?

I've always thought that a good way to keep balance would be to organise regional finals: one for UK, Ireland and Nordics; one for ex-USSR, one for the rest of Continental Western Europe; one for Eastern Europe (from the Baltic States to Romania) and one for South-Eastern Europe (Balkans, Greece, Turkey, Israel & Cyprus). Then the top 5 in those groups move to the Big Final where you can only vote for a song in another regional group. I don't see how that could be organised though, because you'd have in effect 5 semi-finals instead of two, and not broadcast Europe-wide.