Block voting - It's getting worse

[FallenAngelII]

You were telling people who know neither Spanish nor Portuguese that the Portuguese lyrics were virtually unrecognisable for Spaniards. And that's not true.

Quote me where I said that.

-First of all, Andorra.

I never claimed that you personally support Iberian block voting. However, Andorra-Spain is a clear cut case of Iberian block voting, though Andorra has since withdrawn.

- The Spanish votes to Portugal... Sorry but I can't agree with you. Of course that we give more points to our neighbours (like in every single country in this competition!! EASTERN AND WESTERN COUNTRIES), but it's so funny the way you take the results that support your theory and you erase the results that contradict it (like for example, mixing results from the final and semi-final) .

You know why I have to do that? Because oftentimes, Portugal doesn't make the final, thus there's no way to know how Spain would've voted were Portugal in the final.

Yep, neighbour votes. If you don't see that diaspora voting has been much stronger than neighbour voting last years, sorry but you have a blindfold on your eyes.

I was asked to prove that Spain engages in block voting. I did. I never once claimed that Spain always exchanges 12-pointers with X- or Y-country of anything of the sort.

You yourself admit that Spain participated in rampant block voting when Andorra was a part of the contest. 8 points to Portugal this year in the semi-final. Make up whatever excuses you want, that's inexcusable.

"Everybody does it!" also isn't an excuse. That's my entire point. Western Europeans like to whine about how the Eastern European states always vote for each other. The entire point of this thread is to show that it happens in the West as well!

 

[nikolay_BG]

This time we sent a partially Slavic entry which appealed to all Slavic contries (with surprising votes from Sweden, Albania, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and Malta).

Yes, we sent something which appealed to ex-USSR and Balkans (which haven't supported us so much since Ruslana and Verka).
If it makes us guilty in something - shoot us
Shoot us for voting for Azerbaijan (just like San Marino and Iceland), shoot us for prefering a rock song (12 to Georgia, I don't remember if we gave 8 or 10 pts to maNga last year), shoot us for liking Moldova (which sent a folky entry, such music is popular here)... not that these countries used to send crappy entries during last years.
The only thing which bothers me is giving high points to Russia constantly. But we don't give them 12 for a while, usually it's 8.

I voted for Georgia myself so accusing us in voting/receiving points for our neighbours ....
I think 400 million people have a right to express their taste. Calling it "blind voting" just because you or your televoters disagree means having a 0 respect. Not only to our entry but to our people as well.
Germany won in 2010. Italy became 2nd in 2011. So instead of blaming someone whom you hate better watch at yourself and send a song which appeals to us.
We aren't supposed to vote for something which we don't like.
Western entries didn't vote for us en mass... I don't say anything about them using protest voting. So maybe it's time to start respecting our taste finally?

So instead urging EBU to change the rules and get rid of neighbour voting - get some respect. Or even better - send something which appeals to us. Like Norway 2009 or Turkey 2010.
We don't force you to vote for our entries so don't force us to vote for your entries.

xyeah

 

[Sean]

8 points to Portugal this year in the semi-final. Make up whatever excuses you want, that's inexcusable.

Why???

Oh my god, is everyone so deluded into this stupid notion of bloc voting that every single time a country votes highly for it's neighbour, it definitely can't be cause they liked the song?

They have similar cultures and so if one of them sends a song to reflect that culture why should they be stopped from voting for the entries they consider the best? People accept that Eastern tastes mean that they vote for each other often, so why can't that possibly happen in the West?

 

[Sabiondo]

Well, I think it's too early to say anything about Italy, as it's the first year after 13 that this country participates in the contest. But the 12p from Spain last Saturday were not only from the televotes, the jury had to vote high too (and we were not the only country that voted high to Italy, I don't know whether for the song or for the "comeback" effect). And yes, the 12p from Italy to Romania were strange strange...

Well i wasn't surpriced with this .. i know that the comeback of Italy was show the Italians friends and the Jury loyalty around Europe - Including Spain tio , All the mostly points of Italy comes from the Westen & Almost all Mediterranean countries, so we had an new Turkey 2.0 as BIG 5 ))

And in Romania, I was not surprised too, cause i know since in Italy lives almost a a million Romanians and Moldovans like in Spain, plus they had loyalty to Romanian and Latin culture, and also half a million Albanians and Ukrainians (That its the reazon why Ukraine got 7 points) and if Albania was there in the finals, UK would not get that 10 points .

 

[FallenAngelII]

Why???

Oh my god, is everyone so deluded into this stupid notion of bloc voting that every single time a country votes highly for it's neighbour, it definitely can't be cause they liked the song?

They have similar cultures and so if one of them sends a song to reflect that culture why should they be stopped from voting for the entries they consider the best? People accept that Eastern tastes mean that they vote for each other often, so why can't that possibly happen in the West?

I'm sorry, have you heard the Portuguese song? 8 points overall means they either got the people's 12 or got at least some jury points. Portugal.

 

[Sean]

I'm sorry, have you heard the Portuguese song?

It was one of the best performances of the year and one of my favourites in the first semi

 

[FallenAngelII]

It was one of the best performances of the year and one of my favourites in the first semi

I'm sorry, what? In what way was it "one of the best performances of the year"? It certainly wasn't vocally. Or stageshow-wise.

What exactly made it one of your favourites in the first semi-final?

 

[Rusch]

So instead urging EBU to change the rules and get rid of neighbour voting - get some respect. Or even better - send something which appeals to us. Like Norway 2009 or Turkey 2010.
We don't force you to vote for our entries so don't force us to vote for your entries.

OK, you got your point. On the other hand the Big 5 represent more than 50% of the Europeans. So you say, we should forget about the taste of the majority and try to appeal to the taste of the minority. That is also not the way. I agree, that they should try to appeal more. I completely agree. I like the entrys from Spain and France over the past years, but I understand, that they fail meet the taste from the Eastern Europen countries completely. The hard thing is, that you want to see a song competing, that you like and that you might support as the entry of your country. We Germans understood after several approaches that we should avoid a too much american style. So no Swing, no Country... . And just imagine, how hard it might feel for the Spanish and the French to see, that songs, that won`t appeal them at all qualify and even get decent results only because the represent some kind of Eastern European Style. Based on how many people live in Europe, it should be a battle between an eastern and a western European style. The Population on both sides is almost even, but based on the weight of the votes it is roughly 1 to 2. So this is maybe the problem of the western Eurpean region: The cannot promote their style as the eastern European countries do. I know, that there will be never an completely fair voting system, so if you would grant every European an equal vote, Germany is most likely to win.

 

[FallenAngelII]

OK, you got your point. On the other hand the Big 5 represent more than 50% of the Europeans.

This is not a population contest.

We Germans understood after several approaches that we should avoid a too much american style. So no Swing, no Country... .

Uh, what? Since when was "Satellite" not "American style"? And it's not like the reason why Germany failed with Swing and Country was because of Eastern Europe. Western Europe largely ignored "No No Never" and "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" as well (meanwhile, "Frauen Regier'n die Welt" actually did pretty well).

And just imagine, how hard it might feel for the Spanish and the French to see, that songs, that won`t appeal them at all qualify and even get decent results only because the represent some kind of Eastern European Style.

Recent winners:
2006 - Hard Rock Hallelujah
2008 - Believe
2010 - Satellite
2011 - Running Scared

None of these were very "Eastern European" (and two of those entries were entered by Western European nations). in fact, all of these were largely "Americanized".

I know, that there will be never an completely fair voting system, so if you would grant every European an equal vote, Germany is most likely to win.

Why? You routinely send in crappy entries. Like "Miss Kiss Bang Bang". My Goddess, that was pure crap.

 

[Sean]

I'm sorry, what? In what way was it "one of the best performances of the year"? It certainly wasn't vocally. Or stageshow-wise.

What exactly made it one of your favourites in the first semi-final?

I really liked it, why do I need to explain myself? I have a rather unusual music taste but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

In terms of performance I thought that it captured the feel of the song well and they stuck to what worked best for the song. They were also vocally accurate with the song, they weren't exactly warbling out of tune.

 

[FallenAngelII]

I really liked it, why do I need to explain myself? I have a rather unusual music taste but it doesn't mean I'm wrong.

You did't say they were your favourites. You said that they had "one of the best pformances of the year", something which can be quantified.

In terms of performance I thought that it captured the feel of the song well and they stuck to what worked best for the song. They were also vocally accurate with the song, they weren't exactly warbling out of tune.

Except they totally did. And their voices were flat and horrible at harmonizing. And they didn't sing in different pitches (tenor, bass, alt, soprano, etc.). They all just sang the exact same notes, which made their out of tunedness so much more noticeable.

Do you speak Portuguese? Would you have had any idea of what the song was about had you not been outright told? Their stage show was also laughably bad. Mismatched clothes , waving signs and just looking like a student protest (which I guess was what they were going for). I guess that totally beats (sigh) Sweden's dance extravaganza.

 

[Sean]

You did't say they were your favourites.

...and one of my favourites in the first semi

I think that goes someway to saying they were one of my favourites.

As for the performance, we're just going to disagree and go round in circles on this one. It may have been horrible for you but I thought it was pretty good and I really enjoyed their time on stage.

 

[FallenAngelII]

I think that goes someway to saying they were one of my favourites.

Let me amend myself. You didn't just say that they were your favourites.

As for the performance, we're just going to disagree and go round in circles on this one. It may have been horrible for you but I thought it was pretty good and I really enjoyed their time on stage.

If you thought they were pretty good live then you clearly lack musical training. In-tune they were not.

You enjoyed their performance? That you prejorative. That's your personal taste. However, the quality of their artistry can be quantified. The song was bad, their singing was bad and their stage show was't much of a show.

 

[AlekS]

On the other hand the Big 5 represent more than 50% of the Europeans.

A math lesson.

United Kingdom --> 62 008 000
Italy --> 60 605 000
Germany --> 81 758 000
France --> 65 820 000
Spain --> 46 030 000

Total: 316 221 000


Now let's take 5 countries from other areas:

Russia --> 142 905 000
Turkey --> 73 723 000
Ukraine --> 45 888 000
Romania --> 21 959 000
Poland --> 38 192 000

Total: 322 667 000


As far as I know 316 mil. is less than 322. You say 50%? And it's just 5 countries.
Btw, the amount of "Western" countries is on the same level than amount of participating ex-USSR countries.


Diaspora talks are lame simply because last year Ukraine was pawned by diaspora (lulz @ 0 from Slovakia and 0 from Portugal). We have diaspora in Spain but they gave us 0... again.
You mean Poland? 3pts in 2010 and 2 pts in 2011 - "huge" load of points, yeah. Israel gave us 2 pts in 2010.
It's 3 times lesser than we gave to Lena!!!


I understand that we gave our 4 highest points to neighbours but we also gave such points:
06 - Greece
05 - France
04 - Hungary
03 - United Kingdom
02 - Estonia
01 - Sweden

United Kingdom, Spain, France, Germany, Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Austria, San Marino gave us 0.

You know, our song didn't receive votes just from Slavic countries, Balkans and ex-USSR. It got points from Turkey, Greece, Sweden, Cyprus, Malta.

Slovakia (22% Ukrainians) gave us 0 last year, this year it's 12. Block voting? Did they suddenly forget their motherland in 2010?




No, it's getting better. Turkish and Armenian (wut? No hialp from ex-USSR? ) non-qualifying is a nice indication that nothing will work as good as a nice performance.
And Russian fail in the final shows that not all the time ex-USSR really supports "friends".


Btw, Ukraine gave 0 points to Lithuania even despite the singer is half Ukrainian. Lithuania also gave 0 to Ukraine.





One more thing. Spain in 2010 was saved by 8 from Lithuania, 7 - Armenia, 5 - Latvia, 4 - Ukraine, 4 - Russia, 4 - Moldova, 2 - Georgia 3 ex-USSR votes consisted 50% of his total points.
What about Western points? Just 1 point from Belgium

 

[Woohoo]

It's so funny that Georgia gives 12pts to Lithuania almost every year and vice versa.

 

[AlekS]

It's so funny that Georgia gives 12pts to Lithuania almost every year and vice versa.

Yep, without close political connections and diaspora.
Georgians adore pretty girls with strong vocals ... look at their own representatives, esp Sopho Nizharadze.
+ they gave votes to all entries of this kind - Lithuania, Ukraine and Austria.

 

[Rusch]

A math lesson.

United Kingdom --> 62 008 000
Italy --> 60 605 000
Germany --> 81 758 000
France --> 65 820 000
Spain --> 46 030 000

Total: 316 221 000


Now let's take 5 countries from other areas:

Russia --> 142 905 000
Turkey --> 73 723 000
Ukraine --> 45 888 000
Romania --> 21 959 000
Poland --> 38 192 000

Total: 322 667 000


As far as I know 316 mil. is less than 322. You say 50%? And it's just 5 countries.
Btw, the amount of "Western" countries is on the same level than amount of participating ex-USSR countries.

Ok, Point taken.

This is not a population contest.


Uh, what? Since when was "Satellite" not "American style"? And it's not like the reason why Germany failed with Swing and Country was because of Eastern Europe. Western Europe largely ignored "No No Never" and "Kiss Kiss Bang Bang" as well (meanwhile, "Frauen Regier'n die Welt" actually did pretty well).


Recent winners:
2006 - Hard Rock Hallelujah
2008 - Believe
2010 - Satellite
2011 - Running Scared

None of these were very "Eastern European" (and two of those entries were entered by Western European nations). in fact, all of these were largely "Americanized".


Why? You routinely send in crappy entries. Like "Miss Kiss Bang Bang". My Goddess, that was pure crap.

I meant Texas Lightning and Roger Cicero (16 of 24 isn`t pretty well). There were many cheesy German entries, but these two were quite good, but fail to impress completely. Satelite was the first competetive approach after being beaten many times.

And Poland: Nobody seems to like the Polnish music taste (or is it not liking Poland?). I think Poland had great entries, but they`re so far away from the European taste like Spain.

One more thing. Spain in 2010 was saved by 8 from Lithuania, 7 - Armenia, 5 - Latvia, 4 - Ukraine, 4 - Russia, 4 - Moldova, 2 - Georgia ex-USSR votes consisted 50% of his total points.

That is really funny. Completely funny. So they even fail to impress the western countries. Strange: The song wasn`t bad and quite joyful, but maybe there are always 10 songs more interesting. Who knows.

 

[FallenAngelII]

I meant Texas Lightning and Roger Cicero. There were many cheesy German entries, but these two were quite good, but fail to impress completely. Satelite was the first competetive approach after being beaten many times.

I know what you meant. My point was that the reason they failed wasn't because they were "too American". "Satellite", after all, was very "American".

 

[Woohoo]

Yep, without close political connections and diaspora.
Georgians adore pretty girls with strong vocals ...

Georgia gave 10pts to Lithuania in 2008 as well.

 

[Rusch]

I know what you meant. My point was that the reason they failed wasn't because they were "too American". "Satellite", after all, was very "American".

Yeah pop american. But not Swing or Country. Actually I`m still not sure what kind of song Satellite is.