2019 JURY BEWILDERMENT AND AMUSEMENT THREAD

[Alaska49]

i think people focus too much on armenia vs azerbaijan when it is not feasible to expect that to change, specially from azerbaijan's side. please remember that the government actually went to people's homes and interrogate them because they voted for armenia in 2009. if this is how televoters are treated there, juries have no chance. armenia is not much better, maybe televoters had some freedom this year but juries being identified people will obviously not gonna risk it.

i understand people afraid of going back to the days of the 2008 and 2009 semifinals but frankly they are not reason enough for us to accept most of the bullshit juries inflict on us these days. most of the worse entries would stay in the semifinals - the grand finals those years are actually very good. the format would greatly benefit from some adjustments, but as i've said many times, it's clear that there is not a problem to the ebu. maybe there will be if the audience starts to fall europe-wide.

 

[Etanna]

I don't want juries to be gone completely but I agree that the EBU should make their voting more transparent and more verified against accidental misvoting. This year was a pretty close year and if history repeats itself, the mistakes made by the juries + randomized votes from San Marino and /in this case/ Belarus - can affect the actual winner. I'm also very displeased with Poland not qualifying because of a juror's mistake (if that is indeed true) - they should check these things properly, that's why they vote a day earlier for god's sake!

 

[Storm]

Did you even compare jury votes with televotes? because of juries, Eurovision is still overloaded with dated clichéd ballads and the musical diversity is less and less... is that really what we wanted from ESC just to avoid a single joke entry (btw we still have those, I would consider to be this year's joke entry for example)?

What "silly dance acts"? Do you only want pretentious ballads in ESC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETX1CmJNycs

That's all I can say about the televote era. It was a horrific show and motivation in many European countries was at an all time low.

 

[crashworld]

Yeah, the idea that juries are apolitical and public will "ruin ESC again" is simply not working any longer. Public has proven over and over again now to be, from a general perspective (sure there is still some problem with diaspora vote, in particular with Russia), that they are far more open-minded than juries, that they aren't always going for the "safe stuff" and vote for countries they are unrelated to. Juries still get bribed (the random small countries' 12s & 10s to Russia and Azerbaijan issues we saw also some of this year), the blind exchange of neighbor votes (gr - cy)... how is the juries better!?

At the bold part: How do you know they got bribed? Do you have insider info? Why can't they like Russia's and Azerbaijan's entries?
And interestingly, you only mention Gr-Cy neighbourly vote where we all jolly well know the same is happening with the Scandinavian/Nordic countries.

On a general note, there is no way you can stop political/neighbour voting. You can try to diminish the influence, but it's hard.
There a few options:
(1) Those who didn't participate in the contest, but hold the EBU membership can form a jury panel on their own and vote.
(2) Increase the number of juries in the jury panel
(3) Introduce a new non-EBU member jury panel where music experts all over the world vote. Something like OGAE rest of the world.

 

[Alaska49]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETX1CmJNycs

That's all I can say about the televote era. It was a horrific show and motivation in many European countries was at an all time low.

the 2008 final was pretty amazing? as i said, the crap had mostly been killed by then. most viewers hated them as much as we do. why do you all think viewership was falling? lol. countries, specially western, constantly underestimated the public's intelligence and thought they could try anything to see if it would stick. juries had to come back for the countries' own good and to appease the increasingly whinier western delegations rather than because of any actual wrongdoing by the televote.

this, i would say, is also the main cause of block voting in that era. when the western countries are sending absolute excrement, why would the eastern countries NOT vote for their neighbour sending an unassuming, underachieving, but at least not fucking offensive song they are familiar with? the western countries should be happy their few good songs were embraced as much as they were. norway got 5th place that year for a song i care exactly zero about but it was nice and well presented. imagine if they were as smart as they are today.

 

[Ana Raquel]

2008 is fantastic and joke acts are the essence of esc

 

[VirginiaVision]

Guys I think I found a bit of a gold mine...
Let's adventure into Montenegro's jury votes

First point: Jurors #1 and #3 rank Greece first in the semi final. Then, in the final, they both rank it 25th.
Second point: Jurors #2 and #5 rank Greece second in the semi final. In the final, Juror #2 ranks it 7th (which makes sense), but then Juror #5 ranks it 25th?
Third point: Meanwhile, Juror #4 ranks Greece a respectable 6th in the semi...then 26th in the final

But it's not just voting for Greece that gets weird!

Fourth point: Jurors #2 and #4 rank San Marino first in semi. Juror #4 stans Serhat and puts it in 6th at the final. Juror #2, on the other hand, ranks it 26th
Fifth point: Jurors #3 and #5 were also down for some Serhat, so they put it third in the semi...then they change their minds I guess because they rank it 26th in the final
Sixth point: Juror #1 ranks Cyprus second in semi, then 24th in final

Don't get me wrong, people are allowed to change their minds, but this seems too wacky to be realistic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest_2019

 

[Neo]

Like already pointed out there is nothing in favor of juries, but a lot to show they are a menace to competition and music.

Neighborly, political, corrupt and erroneous voting altering a fair outcome, with the worst being their desire to stamp out European musical and cultural identity, clearly visible this year.

It's like they don't care for ESC og Europe at all, but then most music professionals have disdain for the competition and look to American Billboard as the musical reference, let's face it. EBU reflects this as well defending one scandalous jury vote after another and thinking a has been American pop star like Madonna is the top of all entertainment and what would rile up the unwashed European masses.

Out of touch, arrogant and corrupt, they really have no place in ESC. But they will be very difficult to get rid of when EBU have the same basic attitude and too happy about the theatrical suspense created by the televotes while keeping the traditional call-ins.

 

[Ichbinjari]

Let's make a contest:

Which juror was the best one of all countries or which country had the best jury?

I wondering if there was one jury who got the same list as the endresult.

 

[A-lister]

At the bold part: How do you know they got bribed? Do you have insider info? Why can't they like Russia's and Azerbaijan's entries?
And interestingly, you only mention Gr-Cy neighbourly vote where we all jolly well know the same is happening with the Scandinavian/Nordic countries.

Because I don't think countries who are unrelated to these countries and are small always find their entries their best, but yeah that's my theory... although there were incidents in the past but let's not dwell.

Actually, you can go back and see that the Scandinavian juries are far more diverse in their voting, which cannot be said about the annual gr-cy exchange (and now apparently sr thought me had such an amazing song as well to award it the top points). Point is, we will see some diaspora voting etc with televotes, but when professionals act like this you really have to question if they can be even called professionals.

 

[A-lister]

Like already pointed out there is nothing in favor of juries, but a lot to show they are a menace to competition and music.

Neighborly, political, corrupt and erroneous voting altering a fair outcome, with the worst being their desire to stamp out European musical and cultural identity, clearly visible this year.

It's like they don't care for ESC og Europe at all, but then most music professionals have disdain for the competition and look to American Billboard as the musical reference, let's face it. EBU reflects this as well defending one scandalous jury vote after another and thinking a has been American pop star like Madonna is the top of all entertainment and what would rile up the unwashed European masses.

Out of touch, arrogant and corrupt, they really have no place in ESC. But they will be very difficult to get rid of when EBU have the same basic attitude and too happy about the theatrical suspense created by the televotes while keeping the traditional call-ins.

I would have liked this comment if it wasn't for the unnecessary comment about Madonna, don't drag her in the jury talk, she's not the issue here nor does she influence the results

 

[RainyWoods]

Years ago I was all for the jury. The moment I realised Patricia Kaas got top 10 only because of them, I was like "yup, we need them". At this point though I'm kind of tired of having to look at all the shady stuff going on, and the bland taste as well. Having the jury vote at the contest allows countries to flat out cheat. It's no secret how close things get in the semis and it's incredibly easy to rank down borderline qualifiers to give your own song a shot. Examples people have given here in this topic all but confirm it.

Sweden winning the jury vote this year surprised me, but at the same time it didn't. It's the kind of overly polished, safe pop juries push. Italy was in their mix too, so it wasn't all bad, but it's just weird to see something like Too Late For Love drowned in their love. Nothing wrong with the song but it wasn't fresh, or pushing any buttons. Kind of old school-ish Sweden feel to it actually. Meanwhile Norway which was old school too, well performed and substantially more fun, gets destroyed by these music professionals. The juries taste in pop is just generally absolutely no fun. We're not allowed to let go and enjoy ourselves unless it comes with a beige bow.

The jury are there like school teachers to keep us in line, yet they're so predictable in a bad way that it's boring at this point. I don't like two hundred or so people deciding what can and can't succeed. I can never understand as well what they want. Is it the song? The voice? Originality? More than anything it seems an incredibly polished production and something familiar, which is why you often get the most cold, manufactured and soulless stuff of all topping their lists. I'll never be able to understand what they did to Austria this year, or to Finland 2017. They don't fight the corners of these types of songs enough for me to want them to stay around.


I'm really at the point now where I want to say they need to go cause they don't bring much. I'd rather see Armenians and Azerbaijanis snubbing each year via televote, than looking at the joke that is their jury spreadsheet. I feel like juries haven't stopped the neighbourly voting too, which I thought was supposed to be the whole point of them? It's actually even more infuriating to see those neighbourly back scratches delivered curtesy of industry professionals. Greece and Cyprus get booed every year and yet it's still the same story. The whole thing is farcical. I'd like to see the jury vote gone, or at least heavily neutered to the point where their shenanigans hold a lot less importance. Also, lessons on how to hold a piece of paper up the right way should be mandatory.

 

[A-lister]

Years ago I was all for the jury. The moment I realised Patricia Kaas got top 10 only because of them, I was like "yup, we need them". At this point though I'm kind of tired of having to look at all the shady stuff going on, and the bland taste as well. Having the jury vote at the contest allows countries to flat out cheat. It's no secret how close things get in the semis and it's incredibly easy to rank down borderline qualifiers to give your own song a shot. Examples people have given here in this topic all but confirm it.

Sweden winning the jury vote this year surprised me, but at the same time it didn't. It's the kind of overly polished, safe pop juries push. Italy was in their mix too, so it wasn't all bad, but it's just weird to see something like Too Late For Love drowned in their love. Nothing wrong with the song but it wasn't fresh, or pushing any buttons. Kind of old school-ish Sweden feel to it actually. Meanwhile Norway which was old school too, well performed and substantially more fun, gets destroyed by these music professionals. The juries taste in pop is just generally absolutely no fun. We're not allowed to let go and enjoy ourselves unless it comes with a beige bow.

The jury are there like school teachers to keep us in line, yet they're so predictable in a bad way that it's boring at this point. I don't like two hundred or so people deciding what can and can't succeed. I can never understand as well what they want. Is it the song? The voice? Originality? More than anything it seems an incredibly polished production and something familiar, which is why you often get the most cold, manufactured and soulless stuff of all topping their lists. I'll never be able to understand what they did to Austria this year, or to Finland 2017. They don't fight the corners of these types of songs enough for me to want them to stay around.


I'm really at the point now where I want to say they need to go cause they don't bring much. I'd rather see Armenians and Azerbaijanis snubbing each year via televote, than looking at the joke that is their jury spreadsheet. I feel like juries haven't stopped the neighbourly voting too, which I thought was supposed to be the whole point of them? It's actually even more infuriating to see those neighbourly back scratches delivered curtesy of industry professionals. Greece and Cyprus get booed every year and yet it's still the same story. The whole thing is farcical. I'd like to see the jury vote gone, or at least heavily neutered to the point where their shenanigans hold a lot less importance. Also, lessons on how to hold a piece of paper up the right way should be mandatory.

Finally people come to their senses, when I mentioned this years ago people were laughing at me but I see now more and more people coming around to the idea that the juries aren't really that good and that the televotes aren't really that bad...

The comment about sucking out the joy of the contest is spot on, people complained that Norway was "dated", but it doesn't stop the juries to vote for dated ballads or bland generic dated Pop

 

[RainyWoods]

Finally people come to their senses, when I mentioned this years ago people were laughing at me but I see now more and more people coming around to the idea that the juries aren't really that good and that the televotes aren't really that bad...

For me it was always a doubled edged sword. They did some good for songs I deemed worthy (I would have lost Georgia 2016 without them) and they did bad too. Putting their general taste to one side for a moment, it's just how dodgy they are that's so disrespectful to the audience at home. With the public vote you get diaspora and neighbourly voting. With the jury vote you still get both those things, with the added potential there to cheat by voting tactically. It's an extra vote for a country, a vote which now holds more power than ever. It's hard to say what the jury add anymore, and what they take away from the public I think is unfair.

 

[midnightsun]

To a lesser extent I can see why juries place some countries higher in the Semi than in the final. They can't be judged for THAT alone. The semis are a completely different world. People often vote for (fun) (outsider) entries to make sure they qualify, not so much for the favourites, relying on the fellow voters for voting enough to make them qualify.
Also, the competitors are less and maybe different style of music so that one song appealed to the people quite differently than in the final.

BUT - the ranking of a song #1-2 in the semi and dead last in the final (or similar situations) is unacceptable and not explainable unless there is something utterly wrong there.

Also, it is NOT plausible, Norway would be that low in the juries. No(r) way! If you look at what juries have voted for the past years and what are Norway's antagonist's down there in the jury vote it is simply not acceptable. I don't say this because I am a fan of the song (actually, I just became a last minute fan of them, but for a reason!). It's unexplainable. And I think, once more, juries were influenced. And in case of Norway, surprisingly NOT by the odds. Norway was at 5 - 8 right before the final, 10 at worst. And we all know, juries voted for almost all top 10 of the bookies, like every year. So why didn't they vote for them like they did for the others in the top 10 odds?

Was it because Norway suffered from technical problems in the jury final? It was strange enough Norway wasn't allowed to perform twice since in the past every country with issues was offered to perform twice. Even "Verona" though Laura's voice wasn't heard for some seconds only. Plus, juries were apparently asked to ignore the technical issues.

So why is Norway so low then? Don't bring forward the argument of being a dated pop song. This applies to many other songs - this year and in past years. Their performance was fine. The song suitable for the mass. On ESC-tracker they're doing well. A professional jury member would have known this was a perfect song for Europeans. Unlike the songs they were placed with down there in the jury rank.

 

[Neo]

I would have liked this comment if it wasn't for the unnecessary comment about Madonna, don't drag her in the jury talk, she's not the issue here nor does she influence the results

Don't know how you interpreted my point about EBU's 'americanization' using Madonna to her not being the issue of this thread or influencing the result..

 

[Neo]

I can never understand as well what they want.

It's as simple as if the song sounds or look Billboard. If it doesn't, like if it has - god forbid - native joiking, that's it.

This is of course after their neighbour got their cut and Russia (Putin) got slashed.

This year they surprised a bit accepting native language with Italy, but he still looked and sounded like an L.A. gangster, and I guess juries snubbing of good Italian songs last years hasn't gone unnoticed and was somehow compensated for.

 

[Realest]

Most hated by the professional Juries. Serhat beat Elhaida Danis (55) Record from 2015.

San Marino 65
Iceland 22
Greece 19
Albania 13
Spain 12
Slovenia 11
Israel 11
Russia 7
Azerbaijan 6
Denmark 5
France 5
Estonia 4
United Kingdom 4
Germany 3
Australia 3
Serbia 3
Norway 2
Czech Republic 1
Italy 1
Malta 1
Cyprus 1
Belarus 1
Sweden 0
The Netherlands 0
North-Macedonia 0
Switzerland 0

 

[Alaska49]

oh my god i get so angry just remembering how ASSAULTED by the juries elhaida dani was lmfao. i literally started posting on this board after lurking for two years to hate on the 2015 jury so you have them to blame(/thank?) for my continued presence here.

 

[VirginiaVision]

I've finished looking through all the jury votes. Here's the wackiest votes I found (in addition to the goldmine of Montenegro I posted a couple pages ago):

1. Moldovan juror ranks Sweden 17th (out of 17) in semi, then 6th in the final
2. Greek juror ranks Czech Republic 16th (out of 16) in semi, then 3rd in final
3. Sammarinese juror ranks Slovenia 2nd in semi, 20th in final
4. Cypriot juror ranks Slovenia 3rd in semi, 24th in final (second to last)
5. A different Cypriot juror ranks Estonia 4th in semi, then 24th in final
6. French juror ranks Czech Republic 3rd in semi, then 21st in final AND ranks Greece 4th in semi, 24th in final
7. Icelandic juror ranks Greece 3rd in semi, 22nd in final
8. Another Icelandic juror ranks Greece 1st in semi, 21st in final
9. Australian juror ranks San Marino 4th in semi, 25th (last) in final
10. Three jurors, one from Czech Republic, one from Russia, and one from Sweden, all submitted their semi-final scores upside-down. They all happened to be juror #3 (conspiracy?!)

Conclusion: Greece had multiple extreme drops in rankings; it seems like it suffered some sort of jury fatigue (if such a thing exists) between the semi and the final. Also, ditto to everything that's already been said about jurors clearly not being instructed well enough considering three topsy-turvy jurors.