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We Are One ... English Swedish Family - ESC is dead

A-lister

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Well, there you go finally, although I'm not entirely sure what liberal nationalism is. I'd say any form of nationalism is utterly wrong in these circumstances. It should be about exchanging music and artistic expressions and absolutely not about some show off or demonstration.

Liberal or civic nationalism is a sort of open-form of democratic nationalism that is non-excluding but still acknowledge and respect the nation-states and the nation's culture and sovereignty. Hard to explain with just a simple sentence, but it's a good thing I think since it's dismissing the forms of hating nationalism that may occur.

But shouldn't exchanging music be about get to know different music and styles from different countries rather than all sounding the same and Swedish songwriters occupying half of the contest with THEIR sounds and styles? What's happening now is contrary to open-mindess, it's a complete westenization/Americanization/Anglozation of the contest...
 

A-lister

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And that representation should be genetic, or what? Where do you draw the line?
Some years ago, Andorra was represented by a Danish woman who had married a dude from Andorra. If I remember correctly, she was one of the composers. Was that ok?

Of course not genetic! That was never my point...

The Andorran entrant was fine with me, she lived in Andorra and she even sang partly in Catalan...
 

Fluffy

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Of course not genetic! That was never my point...

The Andorran entrant was fine with me, she lived in Andorra and she even sang partly in Catalan...

And Pastora Soler sang in Spanish last year, despite singing a G:son song (which got the most of the spanish televotes in the national selection, even though she had two other entries written by people from Spain). Why is that a problem?
 

FallenAngelII

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You do realize that without fail, ever since the juries were brought back, they had consistently given Azerbaijan less points than the televoters have right? Every single year. In 2009, the juries didn't give Azerbaijan even half the amont of points the televoters gaave them (112 vs. 252), in 2010, it was 116 vs. 161, in 2011, 182 vs. 223 and, finally, in 2012, 118 vs. 151. The reasons why Azberbaijan qualified were:
* A very sophisticated number. The stage show was extremely memorable and slick.
* It's Azerbaijan. They have never not made the Top 10. They are consistently always in the Top 5 with televoters in the final and often win or get Top 3 in their semi-finals.

It's funny how every year, people complain about how the juries fucked things up, how they ruined everything, bla, bla, bla, but when we get the split results, they really didn't make that huge of a difference and their alleged crimes (overly favouring ballads over up-tempo songs, ruining X entry's chances while elevating Y entry's points unreasonably) end up being false accusations.

At the end of the day, when you take an unbiased looked at the jury votes, they're a fair addition. Would you rather the people wield all the power again? Last year, they gave Loreen only 9 points more than they gave the Russian Grannies. The juries gave the Grannies less than a third of the amount of points they gave Loreen. That alone justifies their presence in this contest.
 

SRBIJA

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A-lister, I completely agree with you. You have said it all already so no need to repeat. A shame really. :(
 

dogmeat

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Diversity?

Where is the national diversity? Show me it and we'll talk...

Oh so we should be happy that the only diversity we get are crap songs and joke entries??

No, Armenia and Romania are no original entries, don't delude yourself.
A crap and a joke. So much for objectivity. In other words, you support diversity, but only if you like the song. I'm not sure if you actually believe you're making any sense yourself.

It's already 17 pages of you contradicting yourself. Don't you have better things to do?
 

A-lister

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A crap and a joke. So much for objectivity. In other words, you support diversity, but only if you like the song. I'm not sure if you actually believe you're making any sense yourself.

It's already 17 pages of you contradicting yourself. Don't you have better things to do?

So diversity in your mind is only joke entries then?

Oh, how am I contradicting myself?, I wrote plenty of times "national diversity" first and foremost, none of your examples are proves of that... and they are not original tracks what-so-ever either... so in general bad examples of "diversity".

And of course I'd take homogeneity over BAD entries, but that wasn't even the point of this thread.
 

A-lister

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And Pastora Soler sang in Spanish last year, despite singing a G:son song (which got the most of the spanish televotes in the national selection, even though she had two other entries written by people from Spain). Why is that a problem?

Well, atleast it was in Spanish... always something.

But that entry was more an exception from what we get though when Swedish writers are involved, usually the connection to the country those entries represents are zero.
 

hijirio

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I agree with you, but not completely.
First of all, I think you're too angry and you will regret saying you won't watch ESC anymore.
After all, it's always the winner that matters. Only us hardcore fans care about the contest.
Is there a silver medal for the 2nd place that I don't know of?
If you really hate Swedish composers, why did you NOT stop watching the contest in 2012, when they were muuuuuch more, and all of them qualified.
I hate the juries as well. If musicians want to get involved in the contest, they can simply pick up their phone and cast 20 votes.
Instead of the juries, it should be 50% televoters 50% fans. (=PERFECT RESULTS)
The fans, who know all 39 songs, aren't involved enough in the contest. Some songs are not perfect at first listen and thus don't do well in Eurovision, but 50% fans voting could change that.
 

A-lister

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I agree with you, but not completely.
First of all, I think you're too angry and you will regret saying you won't watch ESC anymore.
After all, it's always the winner that matters. Only us hardcore fans care about the contest.
Is there a silver medal for the 2nd place that I don't know of?
If you really hate Swedish composers, why did you NOT stop watching the contest in 2012, when they were muuuuuch more, and all of them qualified.
I hate the juries as well. If musicians want to get involved in the contest, they can simply pick up their phone and cast 20 votes.
Instead of the juries, it should be 50% televoters 50% fans. (=PERFECT RESULTS)
The fans, who know all 39 songs, aren't involved enough in the contest. Some songs are not perfect at first listen and thus don't do well in Eurovision, but 50% fans voting could change that.

Hmm with "fans" do you mean the OGAE groups?
 

hijirio

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Hmm with "fans" do you mean the OGAE groups?

Not really.
I don't know how they'll spot the fans, but just in some way, wouldn't it be cool? :)
 

FallenAngelII

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Oh, how am I contradicting myself?, I wrote plenty of times "national diversity" first and foremost, none of your examples are proves of that... and they are not original tracks what-so-ever either... so in general bad examples of "diversity".
So-called "national diversity" was a rarity long before the juries were brought back. The juries didn't kill "national diversity", the shifting demographic of Eurovision did. With more countries from more regions entering, something as obscure as Andorran folk music isn't going to do as well as it would have maybe 10 years ago. Unless we're going to start handing out handicaps to "nationally diverse" entries, this isn't going to change.

Not to mention the fact that you seem to believe that "national diversity" somehow automatically equals "good" or that anything "nationally diverse" automatically deserves a lot of points. You know why "Miszerija" didn't qualify, yet "Suus" did so well last year, even with televoters? Because "Miszerija" was badly handled. It had absolutely no stage show (which isn't always automatically a bad thing), it had absolutely nothing going on stage besides a bunch of choir members standing around singing a folk song looking into empty space or at each other. The performers didn't even look into the cameras (they did this maybe a total of 8 times, and only fleetingly). They never tried to engage the TV audience, never tried to connect to them. All of this adds up to a very forgettable performance. Is the song nice to listen to? Yes. Is it interesting to watch? No.

Eurovision is not a radio contest. You don't get a lot of votes by simply interesting from the audience stands. You need to look good on TV. Clapa s Mora failed catastrophically at doing this. Rona Nishliu showed up in a weird dress, with weird hair, with a lot of smoke blanketing the stag, belting out a weird song in a weird way. It was all memorable, which is why the televoters handed her 8th place (106 points).

Also, do you seriously think the juries favour "nationally diverse" entries less than the televoters? Looking at past year, this is patently untrue. Without the juries, "nationally diverse" entries would've done much worse in the past couple of years.
 

A-lister

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So here are my suggestions for future changes:

Transparency

- ESC must be more transparent, if juries are still involved then all split votes by countries must be revealed and not just the combined split votes for all.

- The producers' choosing the running-order system must be re-changed. The system is obviously flawed, it lacks transparency, can be easily manipulated and is in general not fair. A random draw is the only way to go. However the voting-pattern pots must stay to avoid too much diaspora and bloc voting.

Clarify the concept

- Add a new rule that forbid constructed imported entries, an entry must be a product from the country it represents. The exception could be made if the songwriters/composers are active on the country's actual internal music scene (for instance this is common in neighbor countries or in some occasions where local acts are doing much music with foreign writers/composers).

- The same rule should apply to the acts, they must be an actual part of the countries internal music scene. They don't necessarily have to be citizens of the countries, but still be an active force there.

- If the juries are about to stay in the contest, there need to be some clear changes here:

- The juries must be clearly informed prior taking part about the concept of the contest and that they need to respect and understand it, and being "experts" they need to educate themselves a bit about the countries' music scenes (if they don't know any prior), both contemporary aswell as tradional music. The contemporary part can be easily handled, for instance the juries can get a quick review about the current biggest names in music in the countries and what local songs that has been hits (radio or commercially) for the past years. This is a way for the juries to get to know the countries a bit better and to understand their music scene.

- When voting the juries should have in mind that Eurovision is firstly a song contest. While vocals and performances count of course, and the overall package should be judged, the primary that should be judged are the songs, since this is a contest of original songs and not a singing talent show. In other words bad songs, or totally disconnected songs, should not be favored even if they are performed vocally great. Of course, a bad performance shouldn't help either, so it should go both ways but still the songs are the most important thing to judge here.

- When judging the songs, the juries should have some clear guidelines prior, and of course within those guidelines have the freedom to act as they want. The guidelines should just be guidelines, not a way of limiting the judges, more a helping tool for them to judge the entries.

The guidelines:

- The juries should take into consideration if the entry represent the country it is suppose to represent, in other words the pre-education on the countries' music and music scene should be fresh in mind and taken into consideration when judging the entries.
- The juries should first listen to the song quality, but have these things in mind aswell:
-- Does it sound connected to the native music scene?
-- Is it performed in native language?
-- Is it original, does it add diversity and freshness to the contest?
-- Is it contemporary in a sense that it reflects today's music and could it be a potential hit?
-- Has the song ethnic motives?

The juries should take all these things into consideration when judging the entires. Of course, the entries should be judged on their qualities and not just if they live up to any / or all of these, but these guidelines should be taken into consideration as part of the whole package just like vocals and performances are.
 

A-lister

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So-called "national diversity" was a rarity long before the juries were brought back. The juries didn't kill "national diversity", the shifting demographic of Eurovision did. With more countries from more regions entering, something as obscure as Andorran folk music isn't going to do as well as it would have maybe 10 years ago. Unless we're going to start handing out handicaps to "nationally diverse" entries, this isn't going to change.

Not to mention the fact that you seem to believe that "national diversity" somehow automatically equals "good" or that anything "nationally diverse" automatically deserves a lot of points. You know why "Miszerija" didn't qualify, yet "Suus" did so well last year, even with televoters? Because "Miszerija" was badly handled. It had absolutely no stage show (which isn't always automatically a bad thing), it had absolutely nothing going on stage besides a bunch of choir members standing around singing a folk song looking into empty space or at each other. The performers didn't even look into the cameras (they did this maybe a total of 8 times, and only fleetingly). They never tried to engage the TV audience, never tried to connect to them. All of this adds up to a very forgettable performance. Is the song nice to listen to? Yes. Is it interesting to watch? No.

Eurovision is not a radio contest. You don't get a lot of votes by simply interesting from the audience stands. You need to look good on TV. Clapa s Mora failed catastrophically at doing this. Rona Nishliu showed up in a weird dress, with weird hair, with a lot of smoke blanketing the stag, belting out a weird song in a weird way. It was all memorable, which is why the televoters handed her 8th place (106 points).

Also, do you seriously think the juries favour "nationally diverse" entries less than the televoters? Looking at past year, this is patently untrue. Without the juries, "nationally diverse" entries would've done much worse in the past couple of years.

I don't need to say more than look at the years 2004-2009 and compare the amount of ethnic motives in songs and their success with the "new" jury years... the changes is not because Europe stopped liking it, it's because the juries are brought to shift the contest into a Western-only direction, leaving the viewers with not much choice any longer when all of those entries are exchanged to a western sound made by Swedes to cater the juries taste.

And of course entries shouldn't get high points only if they represent their countries, but the problem now is that it's even a disadvantage with the juries to have an entry out of the western/american/swedish anglo-norm... and actual BAD entries with a "western" sound are ranked higher.

Is that really what ESC should be about? A non-diverse contest where entries actually living up to the concept of the contest gets unfairly treated?
 

FallenAngelII

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[Blah blah blah]
Translation: "A ton of rules need to be introduced so that the kind of entries that I like will do better in the future, no matter the quality. If they're "traditional" or "folksy", they need to get an automatic 50 points or something!"

Again, I ask you:
Do you seriously think the juries have voted for "traditional" entries less than the televoters have in the past? This is patently untrue. Or do you simply think that the juries should favour traditional entries on the mere merit that they are traditional even more than they do now instead of judging each entry on their own merit? The juries were not re-introduced to steamroll the will of he people. They exist for the following reasons:
* To make the results more fair by:
- Limiting diaspora voting (by voting how they think their countries would vote were it not for diaspora voting)
- By limiting block voting (by voting how they think their countries would vote were it not for block voting)
- By listening to each entry more than once, give "growers" a chance
- By limiting the "Joke Entry" factor by simply not voting for them.

They do not exist to give certain kinds of entries a handicap, even if you seem to think that if the juries generally vote for slow-tempo songs more than televoters, this means they're evil and anti-not-Western-ballads (despite the fact that they handed Albania and Serbia 3rd and 2nd last year and both of those were "nationally diverse" and "traditional" slow-tempo songs). Giving "traditional" songs an automatic handicap would be patently unfair.

You know why "traditional" songs no longer automatically do well in Eurovision? Because the voters no longer want to hear them in the contest, unless they're really good (like, say, "Fairytale"). A so-so "traditional" song will be judged for what it is: A so-so song. And it will not do well. Things change. Either go with the flow and peace out, as you have promised to.

Your demands will not be met. Not a single one of them. Besides maybe the "Full split results for each country"-one, because that one is sane.
 

FallenAngelII

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I don't need to say more than look at the years 2004-2009 and compare the amount of ethnic motives in songs and their success with the "new" jury years... the changes is not because Europe stopped liking it, it's because the juries are brought to shift the contest into a Western-only direction, leaving the viewers with not much choice any longer when all of those entries are exchanged to a western sound made by Swedes to cater the juries taste.
Please point out the years (and entries) in which the juries proved to be the downfall of "traditional" entries. Like, point out a "traditional" entry that the televoters clearly loved but which the juries simply hated and ruined by not voting for them at all or at least significantly less than the televoters did.

Give me at least 5 examples. And I will you twice as many examples of the juries voting for "traditional" entries more than the televoters did.

And of course entries shouldn't get high points only if they represent their countries, but the problem now is that it's even a disadvantage with the juries to have an entry out of the western/american/swedish anglo-norm... and actual BAD entries with a "western" sound are ranked higher.
I'm sorry, did I miss something where the juries are unfairly voting for "Western/American/Swedish/Anglo-norm":y songs much more than the televoters do? Because unless that's happening, you need to just shut up. If the juries are voting for such songs less than or equally as the televoters, then there's no problem here.

Is that really what ESC should be about? A non-diverse contest where entries actually living up to the concept of the contest gets unfairly treated?
Give me 5 examples of the televoters just loving "diverse" entries whose chances were ruined because the juries simply did not vote for them.
 

A-lister

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^
It's apparent you didn't even read what I wrote, if you did you'd notice that it doesn't have to be folksy. I underlined diversity, and that juries should get to know the local music scenes (which include all type of genres, and hardly not just "folk" if you take a look at the charts and radio plays in different countries).
 

FallenAngelII

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^
It's apparent you didn't even read what I wrote, if you did you'd notice that it doesn't have to be folksy. I underlined diversity, and that juries should get to know the local music scenes (which include all type of genres, and hardly not just "folk" if you take a look at the charts and radio plays in different countries).
You do realize that each national jury consists of people from the country in question, at least a few of which work in he music industry, right?
 

A-lister

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You do realize that each national jury consists of people from the country in question, at least a few of which work in he music industry, right?

Ehm? Yes they consist of people from their own countries... which is logical...

But it's apparent they don't know much about the other countries music scenes, or if they know they simply don't care because they have a pro-western/anglo agenda anyways.

Anyways you told me to shut up so our discussion is over...
 
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