Finland FINLAND 2015 - Pertti Kurikan Nimipäivät - Aina mun pitää

[IncognitoGH]

Jesus F. Christ, I knew that would have been better to shut up.

I really don´t know what in my post makes you think that I am questioning their legitimate audience. I didn´t write anything about it and I completely respect if somebody - unlike me - really likes their music or punk music in general (as [MENTION=9441]RainyWoods[/MENTION] or [MENTION=14007]lavieenrose[/MENTION] do). I also know that they were not formed because of Eurovision. But I have no idea why do you believe that anything of this is in any way related to what I wrote.

For the "exploitation" - well, maybe I could use some nicer word if you wish, but I am sorry, that is how I feel about it. Based on various public appearances and interviews with them, it´s quite apparent that only one of them (the English-speaking) really knows what exactly is going on and seems to be completely OK with it, while two others seem to have next to no idea, which itself is quite ethically problematic in my book. But most terrifying (for me, I repeat again) was watching the singer - seeing him constantly avoid any eye contact with interviewers and audience and nervously wobbling whenever he is in the focus make me believe that he is in position of somebody who does it only because he was forced to and probably feels to be embarrassed by it. Which is quite an irony considering what the lyrics are about.

Of course I might be wrong (as well as you might be), none of us can read their minds. I was just trying to put in words why I feel so extremely uncomfortable watching this and also why this controversial entry cannot be just so easily brushed off with the usual cheap statement "who likes them is tolerant and kind person with delicate music tastes and who dislikes them is intolerant fascist". Opinions cannot be "right" or "wrong", they are and always will be inevitably subjective. That is what makes them opinions.

You really have no idea about autism.

 

[IncognitoGH]

Jesus F. Christ, I knew that would have been better to shut up.

I really don´t know what in my post makes you think that I am questioning their legitimate audience. I didn´t write anything about it and I completely respect if somebody - unlike me - really likes their music or punk music in general (as [MENTION=9441]RainyWoods[/MENTION] or [MENTION=14007]lavieenrose[/MENTION] do). I also know that they were not formed because of Eurovision. But I have no idea why do you believe that anything of this is in any way related to what I wrote.

For the "exploitation" - well, maybe I could use some nicer word if you wish, but I am sorry, that is how I feel about it. Based on various public appearances and interviews with them, it´s quite apparent that only one of them (the English-speaking) really knows what exactly is going on and seems to be completely OK with it, while two others seem to have next to no idea, which itself is quite ethically problematic in my book. But most terrifying (for me, I repeat again) was watching the singer - seeing him constantly avoid any eye contact with interviewers and audience and nervously wobbling whenever he is in the focus make me believe that he is in position of somebody who does it only because he was forced to and probably feels to be embarrassed by it. Which is quite an irony considering what the lyrics are about.

Of course I might be wrong (as well as you might be), none of us can read their minds. I was just trying to put in words why I feel so extremely uncomfortable watching this and also why this controversial entry cannot be just so easily brushed off with the usual cheap statement "who likes them is tolerant and kind person with delicate music tastes and who dislikes them is intolerant fascist". Opinions cannot be "right" or "wrong", they are and always will be inevitably subjective. That is what makes them opinions.

You really have no idea about autism.

 

[Mimoliin]

Even though I didn't like the song, this is heart-breaking

I don't want to press like since I really, really don't like the picture. Heart-breaking is an understatement.

 

[greece]

Well this may wasn't the best song (alhtough I don't knwo if it's considered good for it's gentre) but the fact that with this kind of problem actually sing, becuase these people can't sing is a really big thing. Yes the song hadn't the best sound (among all this ballads this is pretty logical) but it's a miracle that these people sing and achieved to reach the semi finals of a so big contest.

It may wouldn't be fair for other singers who are mentally ok, but I really thing that since they reached until here they deserved to be in the final. Not cause of their song but cause of what they did. Yes it's song contest I know that. But I think that they are skilled enough and very talented. I really hope that this fail won't stop them and they will continue produce music cause what they are doing is important.

 

[Sammy]

Well this may wasn't the best song (alhtough I don't knwo if it's considered good for it's gentre) but the fact that with this kind of problem actually sing, becuase these people can't sing is a really big thing. Yes the song hadn't the best sound (among all this ballads this is pretty logical) but it's a miracle that these people sing and achieved to reach the semi finals of a so big contest.

It may wouldn't be fair for other singers who are mentally ok, but I really thing that since they reached until here they deserved to be in the final. Not cause of their song but cause of what they did. Yes it's song contest I know that. But I think that they are skilled enough and very talented. I really hope that this fail won't stop them and they will continue produce music cause what they are doing is important.

That would not be in the spirit of the band. They themselves said in an interview, "we want to be treated as anybody else". So putting them in the final just because they made it to the semi would in fact not be treating them as anybody else, cause all the others as well made it to the final.

btw. you are contradicting yourself as the highlighted passages of your post show. So either they can't sing (as you said) or they are skilled and talented (as you also said).

 

[Ritararita]

OK, I see that my opinion is clearly in minority here and I am sorry if I offended anyone by expressing it, because that was not my intention.

 

[Sean]

I'm sorry, but I doubt anyone has voted for this tonight. This was as sad as it was disturbing and people don't vote for sad, disturbing things. It felt like someone was using those poor creatures, deceiving them into believing they were actually doing something worthwhile. It was an awful, awful moment and I'm glad it is all over.

What a horrible thing to say about human beings.

 

[greece]

That would not be in the spirit of the band. They themselves said in an interview, "we want to be treated as anybody else". So putting them in the final just because they made it to the semi would in fact not be treating them as anybody else, cause all the others as well made it to the final.

btw. you are contradicting yourself as the highlighted passages of your post show. So either they can't sing (as you said) or they are skilled and talented (as you also said).

Fist of all I said that people with this problem can't sing but they actually do it so they must be talented.

Secondly I know what they said and as I said it wouldn't fair for the else contestants but imo they deserved to be in the final only for the efort they puted : )

 

[musicfan]

It had energy but I didn't feel much individuality to it.

 

[marilina]

I actually hear things like , it does not sound so good. The people who have down syndrome actually have problems when they speak , have you notice that their tongues are big , so they have out of their mouths? Also they have problems with their noses they can not breath so well..well it would not sound so well .. and it was obvious but i think that we had to respect them.

 

[Sammy]

Fist of all I said that people with this problem can't sing but they actually do it so they must be talented.

Secondly I know what they said and as I said it wouldn't fair for the else contestants but imo they deserved to be in the final only for the efort they puted : )

For the first point - sorry I misunderstood you.
for the second - I stick to my opinion. Nobody should be put in the final because of his/her efforts. But onlybecause of a good, entertaining, well staged, well sung good song/performance/package.

 

[marilina]

So if you have down syndrome you will never go to the finals cause you can not sing so well as other people. Even if for your situation you have more talent than them and of coyrse you tried? Why they have to be the same with us? why not to realize that they have to be in our society as themselves and not as us?

 

[EscGeek]

I'm still not crazy about the song,but that live performance was amazing! Finland is now in my top 30

 

[cegs5]

Highlights of press conference

Toni: (joking) "We lost because Kari doesn't know how to sing" ... (weeping) "I had bad feelings because we tried to qualify and we wanted to win the whole competition"
Pertti: "It was totally OK. Somebody else has to win, PKN can't win always"
Sami: "We gave all what we could" ..."I'm going to cheer on Montenegro, they have a special stuff like we had. Of course, Estonia will get a support as well, as they gave a tribute to PKN on Tuesday.

A journalist asked why Kari, the singer, couldn't attend the press conference. Pertti replied straight foward: "He's got diarrhea"

http://www.hs.fi/kulttuuri/a1432093970791

 

[Sammy]

So if you have down syndrome you will never go to the finals cause you can not sing so well as other people. Even if for your situation you have more talent than them and of coyrse you tried? Why they have to be the same with us? why not to realize that they have to be in our society as themselves and not as us?

I completely understand what you are saying. But with the same argument, one could say: Why not put somebody who cannot run fast in the first place of the olympic games just because he tries to? That is like pretending to a little child that he/she has won just to please him or her. I think you don't do justice to people with special needs if you are treating them like little children. They should, no, they MUST have a visible place in our society and be respected. But that means that you treat them with dignity. In my opinion, that means: make things possible for them that they can do, help them where they need or want help, but don't patronize or infantilize them. So Finland made it possible for them to be on stage, to bring across their message and to launch discussion - fabulous thing! But denying that there are limits would not help them, to the contrary, it would create negative feelings against them also (apart from what I said about respect).

Moreover, who says someone with down syndrome is automatically unable to sing as well as somebody without? Maybe they don't reach the level of a Celine Dion, but others have been successful, who weren't such great singers either. There may exist people with down syndrome who sing far better than PKN and who will present a song in a different style in another year and reach the final. Or maybe a rapper? Who knows. I'd be happy if we would not need to discuss the mental abilities or restrictions of the artists and concentrate on their song and performance.

The fact that there are a number of people who liked the entry because of the music, the song and the presentation (as they stated numerous times here) is a far more rewarding thing for them, than a place in the final for reasons, the band itself didn't want to be taken in consideration. They wanted to be taken seriously. That's what the audience did. They just had not enough fans for their musical style or song or whatever.

 

[i anixi]

What a horrible thing to say about human beings.

I'm actually convinced that your (plural) self conscious magnanimity attitude is much worse, so much so as to become an affront. I believe you all mean well though. Anyway, this discussion is pointless now.

 

[i anixi]

Now I am really unsure if my English is so bad or "some people on this forum" - to use this beautiful passive-aggressive formulation - just don´t want to understand my point.

Your English is top notch as it is roughly everything you say. I'm sorry I started this argument.

People can get high on generosity and tolerance, you know, especially when it costs them nothing. I do however dislike the word equality being so generally misused.
Love you

 

[musicfan]

The fact that most don't even speak about the music here suggests that the music isn't that interesting.

 

[marilina]

Ok lets go again.. down syndrome is called a syndrome because it has some symptoms. They have big tongues and small noses and ears , small hands and they have difficulty holding things because their muscles weak.. think yourself trying to sing with a huge tungue in your small mouth. No they can not sing so well as we do. And accepting it is not patronizing . It is just the reality and it means that we should love them and applause them for what they do. As for being children or not.. they are children. if you see their personality the most of them are quiet sweet not creating problems . As for the olympics , eurovision is not the olympics ,it is not just a voice or singing competition because if it was many of the winners i will not say names should not even be in the finals..

 

[dogmeat]

PKN participated on equal rights with all the other artists and that's most important, I believe. They gave a great performance and I would've loved to see them in the final, but sometimes your favorites fail to qualify and there's nothing fair or unfair about it. Such is the nature of this contest.

I have a feeling they were top 10 in televoting... :/