YEARLY JURY HATE THREAD

[Chorizo]

Just to see if the #metoo movement that was tagged heavily to ISR entry played an important part. Because I feel female jury members are more likely to be affected by it and give ISR entry higher placement because of that. To which you could ask ... so what? And to answer before you do ... Jury`s job at least on paper is to be "experts" and first of all value quality of the music. If they start to act like males/females more affected by sth else they do not do their work ... at which point having them is pointless.

Males voting for Israel can be explained with virtue signaling meant to distance oneself from those accused by the MeToo witch hunt. So even if men voted for it as much as women, this wouldn't rule out that the votes were political. Due to the expected virtue signaling, I would actually not expect the female support to be much stronger. It would be interesting to see a comparison, of course. The same applies to Cyprus.

 

[Chorizo]

Who the F actually knows how they do their work? Maybe in some countries they all sit separately in different rooms with their headphones on and phones switched off and then in some countries they are all in the same room, drink beer and crack jokes and discuss everything together before giving their points.

An Austrian juror said on the news that voting is very strict, that they are not allowed to talk to each other, and that a notary and a team of the ORF are there to check on the voting. Then I thought about how the Russians vote as proven by the leaked video two years ago, so I don't know how many countries follow such strict standards. Probably there are guidelines on how to do it and then some countries abide by the regulations and others do what has been exposed in Russia two years ago.

 

[Chorizo]

Why not just have a truly international jury outside of European countries? What is the downside on that?

It's Eurovision and your solution is to let non-Europeans decide the winner?

 

[Chorizo]

I think having a jury was necessary back in 2008-2010 when the neighbor voting was extreme and most countries sent songs that would try gather public attention rather than focusing on quality, but I truly think the juries have already played out their part. The televoter has for years now shown that they have a more mature and diverse pick than the juries. It’s time they go

That's what Israel did this year and the juries didn't stop it because of MeToo. That's what's really tragic. At least the juries didn't let Israel win.

In 2016, the televoters voted for Russia's projection screen despite of the weak song that accompanied it. It's clear that we need the juries. The juries are the reason why the quality has improved. The incentive to send quality would be gone without the juries. Without juries, Eurovision is nothing but an attention-whoring contest with neighbor and diaspora voting gone mad. The juries at least limit the impact of that.

 

[Chorizo]

Somehow forum members from AUT and SWE are very happy with Jury work and either see no problems or only minor problems with Jury voting at best.

This has nothing to do with the voting yesterday, right?

No, I also agree with the jury result for Austria in 2016. Zoe had a cheap little song with a beat that made it sound like a song from 10 to 15 years ago at the time. It was not a good composition and unbearably cloying. The televoters thought it was sweet and liked that nervous young girl on the colorful stage. They voted for it in surprising numbers. The juries were clearly more professional.

In 2015 and 2017, the Austrian entries were not among my favorites either but they were not the worst songs. In 2015, we had a snoozefest ballad and in 2017 radio-friendly background music. These songs weren't top 10 material but the 0 points in the televote weren't deserved either. In the jury vote, Austria was 15h in 2015 and 11th in 2017. That might be a little higher than deserved but it's fairer than the 0 points in the televote ahead of much weaker songs.

 

[lavieenrose]

[MENTION=13781]Chorizo[/MENTION] with a little help from copy & paste magic, you can quote multiple posts in the same comment

Males voting for Israel can be explained with virtue signaling meant to distance oneself from those accused by the MeToo witch hunt. So even if men voted for it as much as women, this wouldn't rule out that the votes were political. Due to the expected virtue signaling

Or, you know, you could just delete your account.

 

[BernadetteCydonia]

Yet again, no one taught the juries how to celebrate diversity (I know it's so last year but still)... and that & have to have at least a little love coming... seriously wtf is on?! Half of the official Polish act was Swedish! You guys love Sweden! Why couldn't Poland have half the Swedish wank this year! And of course the Hungarian piece was barely savourable by the juries, but I'm mad at them because with a whole lot less of points we wouldn't have even seen them in the final and that seems sad enough on its own... also sad for but at least televoters made it become the Szpak of the year

 

[Chorizo]

Or, you know, you could just delete your account.

Why would I do that?

 

[Neo]

Because Eurovision isn't about that The Big Brother tells you which song is "good" or which one is "bad". And I want different lists from jury, yeah! Not a completely crazy way, but I want to see, that they don't vote via a discussion. The bigger difference between represents me that they are different people with different taste of music, and not nodding robots, with the same damn opinion.

Here in Norway they all get together for a fun evening in front of a single TV set to chit and chat. At least how it was until a couple of years ago when we were last told how the jury worked.
Of course group dynamics with conformity pressure and all the other human mechanisms that's in play will be in full force here.

 

[LalehForWD]

Sigh, I have never understood the fascination with conspiracy theories. I mean it is so obvious it is all just bullshit, yet some people love to engage in it, participate, to overblow the ideas and invent new stories. Eventually feeling proud as if they made some kind of effort or contribution. It takes a certain mindset or perhaps social culture to take part and it is utterly pointless to argue against since logic and facts rarely are honoured and therefore mostly irrelevant.

Even in the few cases we actually know or at least strongly suspect there have been cheating or corruption, the circumstances are pathetic. The only really serious story I know of, which also turned out true, is the one about Jarmo Siim, which isn't in the right and proper spirit and direction of the conspiracy theories, nor do it support the wanted conclusion. I'm sure there are more stories that are absolutely true, but then we're back to the beginning, aren't we?

Oh and legit criticism of juries? Have there ever been any and in that case did anyone actually read it?

The story of Jarmo Siim
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/melodifestivalen/article20972123.ab

 

[midnightsun]

Austria was never in the top 10 and around 20th before the final.

It was very popular amongst fans (don't tell me juries do never observe what's going on in fandom and what's "hip" ;-)). The odds were in favour to other songs because of the new hype of the songs of the second semi and the big 3 who performed there too (and France, Italy and Germany have always been considered the stronger three of the six this year), not because nobody predicted Austria.

Apart from that, I wrote in the Who won the jury voting in Semi1? thread a few days ago that it has to be Austria. To me it was quite clear, Austria has a "typical jury song". It is understandable why a jury member would vote for it. They did even more in the final then.

Anyway, I'm not someone participating in conspiracy theories actually. It's the first time ever that I got a bit suspicious because of the huge differences in jury and telephone voting.

 

[nofuxCZ]

Results under the 2009 system
Source:Escxtra

 

[Alaska49]

I completely disagree. That is a level of strategic cynicism that someone in an institutional position within Eurovision should not have. "I just liked Austria better and I think other people will too" feels so much more palatable to me.

i should have worded it better. obviously an honest appreciation of austria would be fine (but not ideal if it's not consistent even from semi to final), and that kind of strategy would be trash, but i would find it less trash than "we are easily susceptible to lobbying and are willing to transform jury points into a licitation war", which was implied by many people in other threads.

 

[sigi]

HOW ON THE EARTH DID SO BAD WITH THE TELEVOTE AND YET WON THE JURY VOTING???????? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

#5 was not the best draw

 

[MonkeyJaw]

is my biggest problem. Many juries supported it for political reasons. It shouldn't have been in the top 5.

Let's forget for a moment that "political voting" is complete nonsense. Let's just run with it.

Yep, that's what juries are likely to do. Vote on Israel because of "political reasons". Everybody loves Israel.

 

[DaFlo]

#5 was not the best draw

So why did the songs around it did better in televote then?

 

[Soul]

Not much better (estonia maybe, but this performance certainly stood out) and given that Austria doesn't have any diaspora the difference is even less. In semifinal 1, where austria started in second half, we received just as many points as Netta and Austria is still pretty quite well on iTunes and Spotify. People apparently liked the song and for Austria 71 points in televoting is muuuuuch bigger than it seems.
There aren't many voters, who just want to see Austria doing well...People who voted for us, liked the song.

Edit: And regarding juries in general: Their voting process is completely different to the public vote so there will always be differences. While a televoter will only vote for 1-5 (?) of their favourites, a member of the jury has to rank every single song. Cesár s song was neither despised nor adored. He flew under the radar while still being pretty high (around 6th-10th, I guess ) in most lists, which granted him many jury points. It's really not that surprising.

 

[Realest]

So why did the songs around it did better in televote then?

Thats very easy to Answer.

Austria scored 71 Points. 0 from Diasporacountries, 71 from Non-Diasporacountries.
Serbia scored 72 Points. 65 from Diasporacountries, 7 from Non-Diasporacountries.
Lithuania scored 91 Points. 48 from Diasporacountries, 43 from Non-Diasporacountries.

Diaspora influences the Result heavily not when it comes to Victory, but in the Table-Midfield and the Bottom.
Diaspora-Adjusted Austria beat Lithuania and Serbia easily.

 

[Chorizo]

Let's forget for a moment that "political voting" is complete nonsense. Let's just run with it.

Yep, that's what juries are likely to do. Vote on Israel because of "political reasons". Everybody loves Israel.

I meant political support for the MeToo message. not for Israel.

 

[Alaska49]

can i PLEASE block posts containing certain words so i never ever ever ever ever have to read "diaspora-adjusted" ever again. it's the biggest load of pseudo statistical crap i have ever seen in my entire life.

it is fun reading people foaming at the mouth trying to deligitimize netta's victory though. "political support for me too" roflroflrofl