Ukraine UKRAINE 2023 - Tvorchi - Heart of Steel

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[PollyWantsACracker]

I suspect Pentagon and Zelenskiy have totally made up the newest upcoming Russian invasion of Ukraine only for Ukraine to win Eurovision once again.

Idiots of the world, insieme, unite, unite

 

[PollyWantsACracker]

Anyway, I haven't come here to discuss the Dirty Dancing fans nor Z-trolls , but to say that I finally heard Tvorchi's song without my initial disappointement, a few days ago on Eurovision's channel Top 20 for January 2023 and my perspective on the song has changed a lot.

It's still not my cup of tea, but I can now understand why Ukraine chose it and I think it could even do very well in Liverpool, for the following reasons:

1. The song is not unique, but it's not ESC tailor made. It will be different from the rest of the entries

2. Nobody would expect this kind of entry from Ukraine, a surprise factor

3. Staging was already great in Kyiv

4. The song is pleasant, its melody sticks to an ear

Regardless, I still find it mediocre and will not vote for it, but that doesn't change the fact that this song certainly has a market of its own, amongst Boomers and GenZ, who loved this music while growing up.

I, on the other side, am still stuck on Dovbuš. Whenever I hear an intro to that song I manage to notice something new. Was that the sound of doors opening, glass cracking, was it flute, a horn, a trumpet, an accordion, what, what, whaaaat?

That is such a great mess of production, too bad she had not succeeded in transfering the song to live performance.

 

[A-lister]

I, on the other side, am still stuck on Dovbuš. Whenever I hear an intro to that song I manage to notice something new. Was that the sound of doors opening, glass cracking, was it flute, a horn, a trumpet, an accordion, what, what, whaaaat?

That is such a great mess of production, too bad she had not succeeded in transfering the song to live performance.

Fiinka's entry remains my favorite from this year's Vidbir, really hope she's coming back. It's so quirky but in a good way and the mix of ethnic and modern again which Ukraine is so great at blending, yet with its own personal style. It has a bit M.I.A. in the production.

I think the live version was fine too, she is a new name, maybe a bit inexperienced live and the studio wasn't the best. Hopefully with some more experience she can deliver even better.

 

[akoz]

I was just checking the odds and Ukraine keeps shortening and shortening. Now they are at 20%. Are we in front of another win from Ukraine or the odds are just going crazy? In any case, this song is far away (and will be) from being the best of the year. Last year, even though I was not a fan, the song was much better. The fact is that if Ukraine gets again more than 400 points from the televote, they may get it again, not matter how low the jury score is. Any thoughts about this?

People overreacting to odds like always, we only got 8 song, how can you predict something? Ukraine leading the odds is nowadays default situation like for example Sweden being in top3 or some small countries being at the bottom of the odds.

2 reasons why Ukraine is still favourite to win:

1. It's confirmed that Heart of Steel will have a rewamp. Until we get it, bookies will not drop Ukraine significantly.

2. With every new selected mediocre song, chance of Ukraine win is raising. If 2023 will be mediocre again like last year, Ukraine could win again, but still Heart of Steel is worse than Stefania and I don't see revamp saving it too much, so this year still be much more competitive.

 

[Brandt]

Here you go again Zzz

We get it, YOU did not like that song, we get it YOU drag politics into this... The just tasteless bitterness in all your comments in regards to Ukraine.

This is not about what I think. I think it is an average song. Sometimes average songs to my taste win, too. But explaining the victory with overwhelming televote with "but the song is perfect" or something along these lines, ignoring the politic factor entirely and claiming that it would have been exactly the same if it hadn't been for the war that broke out in that region grinds my teeth.

 

[Elina UA]

This is not about what I think. I think it is an average song. Sometimes average songs to my taste win, too. But explaining the victory with overwhelming televote with "but the song is perfect" or something along these lines, ignoring the politic factor entirely and claiming that it would have been exactly the same if it hadn't been for the war that broke out in that region grinds my teeth.

It would not be exactly the same if it were not for the war that broke out in Ukraine in 2014. Probably, this is the reason why they stopped wars during the Olympic Games. They didn't want Troy to take first place because of sympathy votes.

 

[empo21]

Yeah Ukraine isn't winning with this song. Even last year before the invasion, Stefania was a well liked entry and people expected it to do well. The votes they received were both for the song and for solidarity.

This year, Ukraine will likely receive lots of televotes as well, but im expecting something in the 100-150 range and a lower jury score.

 

[Brandt]

It would not be exactly the same if it were not for the war that broke out in Ukraine in 2014. Probably, this is the reason why they stopped wars during the Olympic Games. They didn't want Troy to take first place because of sympathy votes.

I can't genuinely believe the intelligence level of this conversation has decreased to this level. Does this have to happen every time I get in a conversation with a Ukrainian nowadays?

 

[Elina UA]

I can't genuinely believe the intelligence level of this conversation has decreased to this level. Does this have to happen every time I get in a conversation with a Ukrainian nowadays?

https://imgur.com/a/nfo96Ji

 

[A-lister]

This is not about what I think. I think it is an average song. Sometimes average songs to my taste win, too. But explaining the victory with overwhelming televote with "but the song is perfect" or something along these lines, ignoring the politic factor entirely and claiming that it would have been exactly the same if it hadn't been for the war that broke out in that region grinds my teeth.

But here's the catch, it IS about what YOU think. You use YOUR own subjective feelings towards a song and dismiss its credit hiding behind the "political card" (= I didn't like it so of course people just voted for it because of politics), and I have seen you over and over the forum bringing the same tired argument and even ridiculing the situation Ukraine on top of that (moderators even had to erase some of your political anti-Ukrainian comments so it's clear this is all political from your side).

We get it, YOU didn't like the song, and that's fine. For many, myself included, it was the best entry in Eurovision 2022 and we would have supported it with or without the war and you basically dismiss everybody else's taste and indirectly call us musically deaf (because we don't share YOUR taste) and politically motivated.

Was there sympathy votes? Sure, but even without them I am certain it would do good.

It's just tiring with the same old talking points.

 

[A-lister]

I can't genuinely believe the intelligence level of this conversation has decreased to this level. Does this have to happen every time I get in a conversation with a Ukrainian nowadays?

Projecting much?

 

[Brandt]

But here's the catch, it IS about what YOU think. You use YOUR own subjective feelings towards a song and dismiss its credit hiding behind the "political card" (= I didn't like it so of course people just voted for it because of politics), and I have seen you over and over the forum bringing the same tired argument and even ridiculing the situation Ukraine on top of that (moderators even had to erase some of your political anti-Ukrainian comments so it's clear this is all political from your side).

Yeah sure, the reason why Ukraine almost doubled the second position in televote is solely because the song is objectively perfect, so perfect that it can grant several victories to come (well, ONLY as long as war continues in Ukraine xd) and that would still be solely because the song is perfect

 

[A-lister]

Yeah Ukraine isn't winning with this song. Even last year before the invasion, Stefania was a well liked entry and people expected it to do well. The votes they received were both for the song and for solidarity.

This! But yeah, the memory of some of these pro-ruZZian trolls is not the best... They forgot that it was popular even prior the war and that Ukraine in general has been a Eurovision powerhouse and has lots of fans in the Eurovision world (with or without war), but hey it's tradition now that annually we have those trolls coming out spamming the Ukrainian thread with conspiracy theories and anti-Ukrainian statements, all in attempts to discredit the country in the contest (and in general).

This year, Ukraine will likely receive lots of televotes as well, but im expecting something in the 100-150 range and a lower jury score.

Yeah, sure they will receive some diaspora votes (not the only country out there which benefits from that) and yes there will be some sympathy votes, but that's not enough if you want to win a whole contest especially if the entry isn't strong. Sure, if a year turns generally weak than such factors might help a bit more than usual but to claim that's enough, nah I don't buy it.

 

[A-lister]

Yeah sure, the reason why Ukraine almost doubled the second position in televote is solely because the song is objectively perfect, so perfect that it can grant several victories to come (well, ONLY as long as war continues in Ukraine xd) and that would still be solely because the song is perfect

I am not sure I ever called the song perfect? Nor denied that some of the votes might have come from sympathy

I am just dismissing your conspiracy theories, your attitude towards Ukraine and towards all people who actually liked the entry. Get over it finally, you're still here in a new year whining over that Ukraine won last year and you even whined that the contest will be held on their behalf, what was your words again? "It's unfair that Ukraine is overshadowing it because of the Ukrainian pity"... I mean wth is wrong with you seriously?

 

[Mainshow]

Ukraine got additional televoting points because of sympathy/the war.
Spain got additional televoting points because of showing booty (the song is trashy and has sexiest lyrics)
Serbia got additional televoting points due to diaspora.
Greece got additional televoting points because of Cyprus.
Sweden got additional jury points because of biased juries.

All these entries, however, need to appeal to the masses/some fans - otherwise, politics, sympathy, geography, diaspora, juries, the running order are not reason enough to make a song win.

If Ukraine had sent "Dustin The Turkey" last year, they wouldn´t have got so much support, either.

We´ve talked about it SEVERAL TIMES - Ukraine has been part of the betting odds´Top 5 before the war as well and "Stefania" was another hot favourite to win Vidbir (it wasn´t just because of Alina Pash).

 

[Brandt]

Imagine having such weak argument that your main comparison is "showing booty" and "adding 24 points from a specific neighbor" over a political statement that concerned the entire continent.

 

[Brandt]

you're still here in a new year whining over that Ukraine won last year

Although I find the wording rather baity, I am not going to fall for it. But when this post is completely fine to bring up although being completely irrelevant to the song, it is fine (because it is supporting your politic opinions), but opposite opinions are "whining" and "not getting over it". That hypocrisy is killing me lol.

Anyway, I am done with this topic already. You can say whatever you want, I am not going to proceed when people come with such attitude.

 

[A-lister]

Although I find the wording rather baity, I am not going to fall for it. But when this post is completely fine to bring up although being completely irrelevant to the song, it is fine (because it is supporting your politic opinions), but opposite opinions are "whining" and "not getting over it". That hypocrisy is killing me lol.

I can't speak for other people in this thread, but you're going round in circles with the same argument for a year now.

Anyway, I am done with this topic already. You can say whatever you want, I am not going to proceed when people come with such attitude.

Did you look at your own attitude maybe? Do you even read what you write?

 

[Mainshow]

Imagine having such weak argument that your main comparison is "showing booty" and "adding 24 points from a specific neighbor" over a political statement that concerned the entire continent.

It´s not "weak" - "Slo mo" as a song was weak - Chanel just finished #3 because of her (sexy and well-executed) performance. No one cared about the song - Spanish fans even sent her death threats - the favourites got snubbed by the juries.. "Stefania", however, has been one of two big favourites of Vidbir straight from the beginning.

I don´t understand why it is so difficult (for you) to understand that there are several factors which influence both (jury and televoting) juries. You can´t exclude political, socio-cultural, demographical factors at Eurovision or even award shows. Sam Smith and Kim Petras just won the Grammy for "Best Duo Performance" (Elton John/Britney didn´t even get nominated, Abba lost)... a song whose lyrics are about "daddy getting hot at the body shop" and counting brands you like (e.g. Prada) are not "subjectively the best song" of the year.... @A-lister and I (as well as others) have never said that "sympathy votes" didn´t happen - we even assured you and other members and think the same... it´s just like "Stefania" had been Top 5 (even Top 3) material in televoting straight from the beginning... and it won in the end due to different factors.. who cares? - sometimes it´s about diaspora, about politics, about (sexy) performances or just because the jury pushed you (hello Mans). The winning entry is usually "not the best composition" and the bottom 5 entries don´t have to be necessarily the "worst songs".

On top of that, music is subjective - there might be people who really thought that "Slo Mo" was the best song and voted for it - despite being a dance routing with filthy lyrics (doom, doom, boom, boom, mami is here, booty hypnotic).

At least, "Stefania" had some depth and strong lyrics....

I can´t find many fans complaining about Chanel being "totally overrated" and her having doubleed, tripled, quadrupled and quintupled the Spanish televoting score despite having the worst lyrics and one of the trashiest compositions of the night.

 

[empo21]

This! But yeah, the memory of some of these pro-ruZZian trolls is not the best... They forgot that it was popular even prior the war and that Ukraine in general has been a Eurovision powerhouse and has lots of fans in the Eurovision world (with or without war), but hey it's tradition now that annually we have those trolls coming out spamming the Ukrainian thread with conspiracy theories and anti-Ukrainian statements, all in attempts to discredit the country in the contest (and in general).

And if Alina Pash was sent to Torino, they might've likely won or placed very high even if there was no war. That song was powerful.