Opinion on racism shown in voting?!

[A-lister]

Anecdotal stuff doesn't say anything to me, you have to crunch the numbers.

I have never said that I hated you for doing this(since I'm doing it myself!), I have never said it's in the laws, especially not in Western Europe. But in our subconsciousness this is a problem and we live in a majority white continent, hence this happens if you like it or not. I'm not saying you will all never see talent in black people, I'm not saying it can't be the other way around(It can, and it happens!), I'm not trying to divide, I'm trying to educate. I wouldn't bring this tweet in this way, but saying there is absolutely no racism in Eurovision is wrong.

Yet this whole discussion is just based on some identity politics theories, and I don't see anything substantial other than feelings to be frank. I mean do you honestly think Netherlands would have faired better had the dude been white? Like for real? We know what works and what doesn't in Eurovision.

I don't think anyone claims racism doesn't exist, that would be naïve and stupid, but I don't believe in trying to use identity politics to explain every phenomena out there, because what you end up with is the situation we had in Sweden where media even claimed you're a "racist" if you don't support Tusse, is that the type of world we should live in? Because ultimately what that results in is that not only do we deflate the seriousness of what the word "racism" actually means and create a society of censorship and fear, we also end up in a situation where race and not merits count. Just like we should acknowledge that there are situations and contexts where someone from a minority group (not just ethnical, can be sexuality too for instance) is facing obstacles in life and needs to work harder, but the solution is not to turn it upside down and belittle people and think they can't be judged on the same merits because that is also a form of racism and imo throwing out the race card here is doing the latter.

I think we shouldn't look for ghosts, let's fight actual injustice and racism out there, but let's not invent it where it's really not an actual issue.

 

[Miloutchi]

What it would do in this case might not be voting directly, though that might be a bit of a problem too, but can also be that the white part of the population who is unknowingly unconscious racist slowly claim that this or that song of this black person is bad and after that other people will follow up, because we are social animals.

These sentences don't mean we are all evil motherfuckers or that no black guy/girl can ever reach high. But it might be more difficult.

The “problem” with this type of racism is that it is hard to proof, to be aware of, to understand, etc. too

And because of that, tweets like this are only adding to the problem. I don’t like being called a racist because I don’t like a certain entry. I don’t like it that I need to justify it. It becomes tiring. It makes me think those people are just sore losers and play the racism card. I don’t like thinking “bad” about myself or when someone says such things about me, so I immediately start blaming others. I’m definitely not alone in this.

It’s also hard to decide if I don’t like something because of dislikes or because of some unconscious issue. And then I don’t even talk about things we just dislike because we aren’t familiar with it.

Therefore real issues are being thought of as whining black people who just complain about everything and blaming others for their problems, loss, etc.

I really appreciate your attempt (quite successfully, I might add) at some nuance though.

(Btw, I’m pretty sure I just heavily disliked Malta and disliked Israel and San Marino, because I listened to all the songs before even seeing any artist. But like, I am growing tired a bit of having to defend myself, so I can understand all the reactions here. And that’s what I see as a problem.)

 

[A-lister]

I may get a lot of negative reactions for this one, but I think racism is used in this case as an excuse and a reason to blame someone for a result that was bound to happen. Yeah, racism is a very big problem in the world, but I don't think that's why Destiny and Jeangu failed. They probably did lose some of their votes because of that, but they also gained some because of black empowerment, especially after BLM, so it evens out. Destiny was forgotten amongst similar songs and her stage was a disaster and she wasn't really charismatic either. I don't think anything could have saved Jeangu from being among last ones. And about Senhit, yeah she did deserve better, but her race aint the reason. Loreen is also Arabic (if I'm not wrong) and she won by a landslide.

Loreen is of Moroccan berber origin, but yeah she's a good example here.

She belongs to a minority race, her dancer on stage with her was black, yet "Euphoria" ended up winning and becoming one of the most loved and successful Eurovision entries to date (and this is almost 10 years ago, in a time when this topic wasn't as discussed).

She had a banger entry, banger performance and won rightly on those merits.

And now we can't even dislike an entry not to be labeled "subconsciously racist"?

Israel is among one of my favorite entries this year, Netherlands one of my least favorites... so how is that possible?

 

[Ana Raquel]

some of you seem way too self-defensive towards a claim that is not directly aimed at you and it's not a good look but go off I guess

The problem is that racism is often unconscious. For instance I have lived in the Netherlands in a rural village as far as it can go. There weren't a lot of black people, so after living there I went to a bigger place and to university and also found out that I have this bias in my head. Now I have followed some ethics courses in combination with data science and almost always there is a hint to unconscious racism with groups almost everywhere.

What it would do in this case might not be voting directly, though that might be a bit of a problem too, but can also be that the white part of the population who is unknowingly unconscious racist slowly claim that this or that song of this black person is bad and after that other people will follow up, because we are social animals.

These sentences don't mean we are all evil motherfuckers or that no black guy/girl can ever reach high. But it might be more difficult.

that's the gist of it. racism (and basically all the other forms of oppression) is mainly structural and sometimes can go unnoticed because it's rooted in our societies for centuries. mind you that:
1. you don't have to like every single entry by a person of color in order to not be racist;
2. an entry by a person of color doing well does not rule out the possibility of racism that other entries by people of color can cafe.

So, be wary that excuses like "I'm not racist I even like this entry done by a black person!!!!!!!!!" is not so different of "I'm not racist I have black friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and that is a no.

 

[A-lister]

some of you seem way too self-defensive towards a claim that is not directly aimed at you and it's not a good look but go off I guess


that's the gist of it. racism (and basically all the other forms of oppression) is mainly structural and sometimes can go unnoticed because it's rooted in our societies for centuries. mind you that:
1. you don't have to like every single entry by a person of color in order to not be racist;
2. an entry by a person of color doing well does not rule out the possibility of racism that other entries by people of color can cafe.

So, be wary that excuses like "I'm not racist I even like this entry done by a black person!!!!!!!!!" is not so different of "I'm not racist I have black friends!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and that is a no.

I feel like this was partly directed at me so I will just take the opportunity to quickly respond. The "I voted for..." comment on my behalf at least (I can't speak for others), was just a simple way to illustrate why the argument is flawed, and I am not going to accept the card you're trying to play here because it's pretty low. If someone truly is a racist they simply wouldn't support an entry performed by an artist of another race than themselves, it's actually that simple and these "theories" aren't going to change that, these "theories" are just deflating the meaning of the word.

It's really not about being self-defensive, and I think shoving "racist" down everyone's throat, even when we are just discussing what music we like or not, is really crossing the line of absurdity now. I really feel like we're in a culture now that is so extremely toxic when people, and sorry to say but you're also feeding that notion to some degree with your comment, put themselves on such high pedestals where they feel like they can lecture others and make ludicrous claims and accusations about other people's characters which frankly borderline to libel because you (and I don't mean "you" here but people in general) want to show off how "woke" they can be, it's become a competition really and I'm not here for it and I guess this is what people react to (what you refer to as "self-defensive").

We're talking Eurovision here and the claim that acts of color who failed, or didn't do as good as "someone" expected, did so due to "systematic racism" or "subconscious racism" among the average televoter is just bonkers and honestly Eurovision is just the next target of the "woke mob", it's nothing else. It's not intellectual, it's not factual and it's just out to divide us even further and basically sucking the joy out of everything.

 

[NeoTen]

The only thing I wanna add to this topic is that The Weeknd is currently the highest-charting artists on average throughout all European countries, and even deeply analyzing all EU radio charts, an Arab is currently charting #1 in Russia, where Lil Nas X - a gay, black, rapper (that's three strikes according to the stereotype) is charting #1 in Slovakia and even #1 in Hungary (in streams) and #3 in physical singles, apart from him even charting #15 in the non-EU-CIS states and rest of EU on average, while rising.
Even if, they're certainly doing a bad job outside of Eurovision.

Even If we'd allow anecdotical evidence from persons of color and I'd make a summary, my contribution here would still be in agreement with the very well put responses from @A-lister

 

[A-lister]

To the mods:

Can this be moved to the political sub-forum? While it's about Eurovision it's also not.

 

[Chorizo]

Racism is such a lame excuse for unpopular entries not getting more votes. Most of these entries never had much support. San Marino and especially Malta have their fans but it's easy to understand that the televote was not going crazy over these songs. No need for political drama.

 

[Chorizo]

Israel is among one of my favorite entries this year, Netherlands one of my least favorites... so how is that possible?

Come on, that's easy to explain: sexism!

 

[Loindici]

If racism is a thing Dami Im wouldn't even be having 512 points in 2016 since she's Korean, nor Cesar getting 271 points from the juries since he's black, or even Jamala getting 2nd and 2nd and win since she's Crimean Tatar and Armenian.

The 2021 problems for the first half artist is that there're more song with immediate shock and charismas in the 2nd half, and for the second half artists, their song is just not that favored.

 

[Ana Raquel]

I feel like this was partly directed at me so I will just take the opportunity to quickly respond. The "I voted for..." comment on my behalf at least (I can't speak for others), was just a simple way to illustrate why the argument is flawed, and I am not going to accept the card you're trying to play here because it's pretty low. If someone truly is a racist they simply wouldn't support an entry performed by an artist of another race than themselves, it's actually that simple and these "theories" aren't going to change that, these "theories" are just deflating the meaning of the word.

It's really not about being self-defensive, and I think shoving "racist" down everyone's throat, even when we are just discussing what music we like or not, is really crossing the line of absurdity now. I really feel like we're in a culture now that is so extremely toxic when people, and sorry to say but you're also feeding that notion to some degree with your comment, put themselves on such high pedestals where they feel like they can lecture others and make ludicrous claims and accusations about other people's characters which frankly borderline to libel because you (and I don't mean "you" here but people in general) want to show off how "woke" they can be, it's become a competition really and I'm not here for it and I guess this is what people react to (what you refer to as "self-defensive").

We're talking Eurovision here and the claim that acts of color who failed, or didn't do as good as "someone" expected, did so due to "systematic racism" or "subconscious racism" among the average televoter is just bonkers and honestly Eurovision is just the next target of the "woke mob", it's nothing else. It's not intellectual, it's not factual and it's just out to divide us even further and basically sucking the joy out of everything.

This was more of a general thing, you were not the only one to say that, but yes it applies to what you said.

The way you are talking is as if only macroaggressions such as "I HATE BLACK PEOPLE" or "I WILL BEAT BLACK PEOPLE THEY HAVE TO DIE" or "BLACK PEOPLE ARE THE SCUM OF SOCIETY", but no, it's not just this. Microaggressions can also be racist and they are one of the reasons oppressions can be so rooted in oneself. You sure must have heard or read any of these sentences at some point, even if not used against you, right? Also, to kind of respond to your last paragraph, imagine not being intellectual or factual when there are thousands of academic research regarding systemic racism/subconscious racism/microaggressions. Let's look at this bibliographic review done in 2013; if you go look at the references, you can see dozens of researches about it - many if not most of them pre-2010. It's not a new subject. I wonder who I should believe.

It is about being self-defensive, because the twitter user didn't say "A-Lister is a racist person!" and you don't speak for all the European public. If you believe you are not racist, there shouldn't be any concern about the tweet as it does not apply to you (as it was once said in a Brazilian meme saying: e a consciência tranquila - literally translated as "and the consciousness is tranquil", meaning, in short, "there is nothing to worry about as I know i didn't do anything wrong"). again, this is more of a general issue (and personal experience): the more one tries to overdefend themselves to say they are not racist, the more they make the opposite impression.

Many people here discuss about music, sure, just don't forget that our tastes are connected to the culture of where we were raised, to the traditions of one's family, and to the collective psique. So, if a society has rooted-in racist conceptions, they can be transferred to one's taste in culture, for example. This being the subconscious way, of course. Don't forget we had openly racist people and their racist remarks being active on the forum for years - yes, I'm talking about the now-banned user LastDreamer, a perfect example of someone whose taste is influenced by his glaring racism: from placing every single black contestant last, to openly said he is against racial diversity on the contest and even death threatening users from ethnical minoritatian backgrounds when calling him out.

Finally, the Eurovision brand is sold as a "woke space", promoting progression, union, diversity, etc. It would be innocent not to expect that "woke mobs" would be into a "woke" piece of media. And don't forget: if one promotes progression, it should promote it to all minorities, not to just white gay men. As we are more invested in Eurovision and constantly follow odds and statistics, all these results (bar Senhit's) were not shocking. However, what can be grasped from the situation and the tweet is not "these entries flopped solely because of racism there is no other explanation", but actually "can racism influence the results? is the reason for their flops partly caused by subconscious racism?". nobody has a definite response for it. however, it is a possibility that can definitely be considered. and this also applies to every other oppression. in an ideal world, this wouldn't influence, but guess what? the world we live in is everything but ideal.

To the mods:

Can this be moved to the political sub-forum? While it's about Eurovision it's also not.

Agree, it could just be moved to this topic:

https://www.escunited.com/forum/threads/politics-eurovision.17130/

 

[EscGeek]

Some of those examples of microaggression are just normal everyday interactions between people, and some examples there can have a racist undertone (but not necessarily).

f.e. I constantly check my pockets in a crowded place even though i live in one the safest countries in the world. I just don't wanna lose my shit and i don't trust strangers. This is not a microaggression towards other people. It's just common sense. People living in less safe countries have even more valid reasons to do what i do, regardless of the racial structure of the country.

or this sentence: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job". <--What the hell is wrong with that? Hiring someone to fill the racial quotas is actually just as racist as not hiring someone because of their race.

I'm sorry, but if you see everything as "racist" then you'll just be less happy in life.

 

[Miloutchi]

or this sentence: “I believe the most qualified person should get the job". <--What the hell is wrong with that? Hiring someone to fill the racial quotas is actually just as racist as not hiring someone because of their race.

What’s wrong with that is that racism/discrimination is often UNCONSCIOUS. And so people are not actually that good at deciding who is the most qualified person for a job. Quotas are there to mitigate the effects of unconscious discrimination.

An example based on something I experienced: People may have the unconscious believe that women are more caring, more meticulous, more perfectionist than men.

If a man applies for a job that needs those qualities, he is automatically behind the women who have also applied for the job. He would need to try that much harder to get the job than a woman.

The same is true for all groups that face certain prejudice. Our unconscious beliefs make us discriminate people while we don’t even know it. That’s why there are quotas. That’s why more women should be hired in high positions and more people with different backgrounds should be hired in all kinds of areas. Because if you leave it to our own judgments, we wouldn’t actually be hiring the most qualified person for the job.

 

[EscGeek]

But shouldn't we trust the judgment of a hiring manager?
Picking a wrong candidate can be a damaging career move for them.

 

[Chorizo]

If you only get a job because some quota needs to be fulfilled, it is a lot more likely that you are not the most qualified person than that you are truly the best but wouldn't have been hired without the quota due to racism. The more unqualified you are, the more likely is it that you profit from quotas.

 

[A-lister]

This was more of a general thing, you were not the only one to say that, but yes it applies to what you said.

The way you are talking is as if only macroaggressions such as "I HATE BLACK PEOPLE" or "I WILL BEAT BLACK PEOPLE THEY HAVE TO DIE" or "BLACK PEOPLE ARE THE SCUM OF SOCIETY", but no, it's not just this. Microaggressions can also be racist and they are one of the reasons oppressions can be so rooted in oneself. You sure must have heard or read any of these sentences at some point, even if not used against you, right? Also, to kind of respond to your last paragraph, imagine not being intellectual or factual when there are thousands of academic research regarding systemic racism/subconscious racism/microaggressions. Let's look at this bibliographic review done in 2013; if you go look at the references, you can see dozens of researches about it - many if not most of them pre-2010. It's not a new subject. I wonder who I should believe.

It is about being self-defensive, because the twitter user didn't say "A-Lister is a racist person!" and you don't speak for all the European public. If you believe you are not racist, there shouldn't be any concern about the tweet as it does not apply to you (as it was once said in a Brazilian meme saying: e a consciência tranquila - literally translated as "and the consciousness is tranquil", meaning, in short, "there is nothing to worry about as I know i didn't do anything wrong"). again, this is more of a general issue (and personal experience): the more one tries to overdefend themselves to say they are not racist, the more they make the opposite impression.

Many people here discuss about music, sure, just don't forget that our tastes are connected to the culture of where we were raised, to the traditions of one's family, and to the collective psique. So, if a society has rooted-in racist conceptions, they can be transferred to one's taste in culture, for example. This being the subconscious way, of course. Don't forget we had openly racist people and their racist remarks being active on the forum for years - yes, I'm talking about the now-banned user LastDreamer, a perfect example of someone whose taste is influenced by his glaring racism: from placing every single black contestant last, to openly said he is against racial diversity on the contest and even death threatening users from ethnical minoritatian backgrounds when calling him out.

Finally, the Eurovision brand is sold as a "woke space", promoting progression, union, diversity, etc. It would be innocent not to expect that "woke mobs" would be into a "woke" piece of media. And don't forget: if one promotes progression, it should promote it to all minorities, not to just white gay men. As we are more invested in Eurovision and constantly follow odds and statistics, all these results (bar Senhit's) were not shocking. However, what can be grasped from the situation and the tweet is not "these entries flopped solely because of racism there is no other explanation", but actually "can racism influence the results? is the reason for their flops partly caused by subconscious racism?". nobody has a definite response for it. however, it is a possibility that can definitely be considered. and this also applies to every other oppression. in an ideal world, this wouldn't influence, but guess what? the world we live in is everything but ideal.


Agree, it could just be moved to this topic:

https://www.escunited.com/forum/threads/politics-eurovision.17130/

I don't know about you, but I have a degree in political science and I studied some of these theories myself. Just because a study has been made though, doesn't mean it's factual or particularly intellectual. Alot of research is actually pure drivel and politically funded, and we ought to be critical about everything we read.

I can see, as expected because the theories about the average "racist televoter" is just silly, that this quickly diverged into something else and I knew right away that it would do because the arguments don't fit here.

I don't deny that racism exists, but I am not buying that some general racism caused certain results in Eurovision. You're free to believe in whatever woke theories you want, but what I see is just the woke mob finding another forum to trash and suck out the fun from because it's like their very existence is depending on claiming racism everywhere and frankly they won't rest until we claim that white people just breathing is racism... oh wait, it already happened!

I don't think I can go much further because the topic is already way too diverged, I'd be happy to discuss it in another context but this claim will remain utter fantasy nonsense to me and I see it already lost because now there are just constructivist theories being thrown around with little connection to the original claim or context because it's already been debunked over and over again.

 

[Ana Raquel]

I don't know about you, but I have a degree in political science and I studied some of these theories myself. Just because a study has been made though, doesn't mean it's factual or particularly intellectual. Alot of research is actually pure drivel and politically funded, and we ought to be critical about everything we read.

I can see, as expected because the theories about the average "racist televoter" is just silly, that this quickly diverged into something else and I knew right away that it would do because the arguments don't fit here.

I don't deny that racism exists, but I am not buying that some general racism caused certain results in Eurovision. You're free to believe in whatever woke theories you want, but what I see is just the woke mob finding another forum to trash and suck out the fun from because it's like their very existence is depending on claiming racism everywhere and frankly they won't rest until we claim that white people just breathing is racism... oh wait, it already happened!

I don't think I can go much further because the topic is already way too diverged, I'd be happy to discuss it in another context but this claim will remain utter fantasy nonsense to me and I see it already lost because now there are just constructivist theories being thrown around with little connection to the original claim or context because it's already been debunked over and over again.

Sorry for the late response. WV hosting is taking all my time. In case I end up forgetting to answer you, don't hesitate to pm me.

That's why it's called theory. Plus, when we talk about research in humanities (I can properly guarantee this towards my field which is communication), it is pretty much impossible to have "100% factual" research as you can't have an unbiased mind.

The keyword here is can. Voting is still a reflex of one's society, whether it's a presidential election or a song contest voting. If said society is racist, it is expected that they can also be racist while voting. Mind you that we are talking about the >collective< here. We can't evaluate millions of votes individually. We are not a census. Just don't forget that while it can't be proved that all of these results are racist!!!!!11, it also applies to the opposite claim. in the end, these results (not just the ones in 2021, but in general) are caused by several circumstances, and subconscious racism can definitely be one of them.

Also, have you thought of... I don't know... look at things from another perspective? If "sucking out the fun" means "giving a safer space to minorities", I definitely know which one I prefer. And don't forget, as I said before, Eurovision IS a "woke" event and it is branded this way (and to be honest, oppression is everywhere, given that it's rooted in our minds and thoughts but go off I guess).

 

[kruskica]

To be honest, I can't believe some people actually believe that a certain song flopped just because of racism. Thinking a song should have done better because an artist is of a certain race is just as racist as not voting for someone who is a certain race. Transphobia was and will always be bigger than racism, but still Conchita won. This is just silly. There is no need of going to an extreme with everything, yes, racism is a huge problem, but thinking that a song flopped just because of racism is silly and those extremes give some important movements, such as BLM, a bad name.

 

[Uto]

I don't really know what is happening in other countries, but Jeangu is getting a LOT of racist, negative comments from Dutch people, just for not being Dutch, having no white person on stage, singing in another language, whatever.

I only saw a couple of comments by some 'wappies' after the supermarket slogan thing and the Surinamese community giving them a slap on the wrist for that. Not a single person I know myself thought anything other than the song being pretty cool and that's it. I mean surely racism exists in the Netherlands and there were some heinous comments for sure, but to say there was 'a LOT' of this? Not my experience.

 

[Mainshow]

We've seen people of colour, Muslim, white, straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, Slavic, indigenous, non-cis male acts won Eurovision.
Artists with disabilities qualified for the final, etc.... It's ridiculous to think of Eurovision downgrading entries because of racism, tbh.
I believe, there will always be some people being (unconsciously) homophobic, xenophobic or racist watching Eurovision but overall, their very few votes (compared to all the other votes cast in Eurovision) will never be that effective to make some songs flop.

The Maltese entry wasn't authentic and they tried too hard.
The Swedish entry was the epitome of being generic (sound and lyrics-wise).
San Marino was slightly trashy, camp but entertaining (those songs stopped performing well 2009)
The Dutch entry was original but the least competitive song in a very strong year.
The Czech entry was not instant enough and Benny didn't sing very well.

Simple as that.

I honestly think they all got what they deserved - I mean, #7 for Malta is a great and justified and well-deserved position and #14 for Sweden ain't bad either (we all thought it might not even qualify).