ESC 2019 General Discussion Thread

[anto475]

I posted this on reddit but I feel it merits reposting here. What is the point in the host drawing its own place in the running order anymore? I understand that when the system was changed by Sweden in 2013, only the host was allowed to randomly select its position in the running order to allow for impartiality while the producer (seemingly from the host country) chose the positions of the rest. Yet since 2016, Christer Björkman has been in charge of the running order. And in the last two contests he gave Sweden very favourable positions in the draw. Surely by now that rule should be amended so that the country of the producer should be drawn randomly, rather than the host country?

 

[theditz83]

Bjorkman is supposed to be impartial in his role, although how successful he is at that I'm sure the majority will agree is questionable!

I don't think they'll put Cyprus first - Belarus seems like a more likely starter for me (fairly simple dance routine focused performance yet hooky and catchy enough to draw in the viewers). There's a nice sort of link in the thought of one of the JESC 2018 presenters being the opener for ESC 2019

 

[Laepo1]

https://www.facebook.com/rogerwaters/posts/2285319784845147?__tn__=K-R

Roger Waters asked Conan Osiris (and to the other participants indirectly) to boicot Telaviv.

Always drama. But he said some sweet things about Conan.

 

[Pawhlen]

I posted this on reddit but I feel it merits reposting here. What is the point in the host drawing its own place in the running order anymore? I understand that when the system was changed by Sweden in 2013, only the host was allowed to randomly select its position in the running order to allow for impartiality while the producer (seemingly from the host country) chose the positions of the rest. Yet since 2016, Christer Björkman has been in charge of the running order. And in the last two contests he gave Sweden very favourable positions in the draw. Surely by now that rule should be amended so that the country of the producer should be drawn randomly, rather than the host country?

I remember that many people in here doomed us last year when we was placed between and .

Everything is black or white for escfans sadly

 

[94ayd]

I remember that many people in here doomed us last year when we was placed between and .

Everything is black or white for escfans sadly

Well, you did completely bomb the televoting, didn't you?

 

[anto475]

I remember that many people in here doomed us last year when we was placed between and .

Everything is black or white for escfans sadly

20th in the Final is the 3rd most successful position. There's nothing "doomed" about being placed there.

 

[Pawhlen]

Well, you did completely bomb the televoting, didn't you?

Then so, what´s the problem? That´s the point I was trying to make by saying that everything is black or white.

 

[BorisBubbles]

The "problem" is that Swedes always get jingoistic and hyperdefensive about their entries, regardless of whether they're good or not (and likewise, the Sweden haters always fucking rage on them regardless of quality. Sweden are good this year, give it a fucking rest). It's not really a problem according to moi because we all do it, but it always blows up due to the situation we're in.

The reality is that Sweden are overrated in Eurovision and their sterling reputation ensures they will always do way better than they should be doing based on what they're actually sending (loads of generic crap, John & both winners excepted), where as countries such as Slovenia, Albania, Estonia and Moldova, amongst many others, have to FIGHT for their spot in the final every year, even when they send quality songs.

The injustice of it all turns people away from Sweden (or from other countries which basically get qualification served on a buffet trolley, such as Australia and the Big Five) and that number is growing every year, because it's getting more obvious every year. What do these people do? Why, they turn to the internet vent their frustrations to anyone who wants (or doesn't want) to listen. It's a vicious cycle.

Christer being in Tel Aviv to do the running order and exec producing and whatever, only reinforces the notion that the contest is unfair and rigged, irrespective of whether he actually does any rigging or not Perception may not always be reality, but to most people it is their truth. The Swedes really need to accept the situation for what it is and move on.

(Still, the Swedes are not even remotely close to the most obnoxious fanbase on the forum, let alone the internet. For instance one only has to take a single peek at the Jonestown, Guyana that is this year's Austria topic to witness the 90+ pages of auto-fellating fan-fiction cooked up by this board's resident Austrians. They're likable enough invidually but when put together in that thread, dear god. Someone might want to sic an admin on top of their doomcounting, backpedaling asses because at this rate I'm predicting a ritual mass suicide if Pænda fails to reach the Grand Final, which is a very real possibility! #PrayForPænda y'all. )

 

[FilipFromSweden]

The "problem" is that Swedes always get jingoistic and hyperdefensive about their entries, regardless of whether they're good or not (and likewise, the Sweden haters always fucking rage on them regardless of quality. Sweden are good this year, give it a fucking rest). It's not really a problem according to moi because we all do it, but it always blows up due to the situation we're in.

The reality is that Sweden are overrated in Eurovision and their sterling reputation ensures they will always do way better than they should be doing based on what they're actually sending (loads of generic crap, John & both winners excepted), where as countries such as Slovenia, Albania, Estonia and Moldova, amongst many others, have to FIGHT for their spot in the final every year, even when they send quality songs.

The injustice of it all turns people away from Sweden (or from other countries which basically get qualification served on a buffet trolley, such as Australia and the Big Five) and that number is growing every year, because it's getting more obvious every year. What do these people do? Why, they turn to the internet vent their frustrations to anyone who wants (or doesn't want) to listen. It's a vicious cycle.

Christer being in Tel Aviv to do the running order and exec producing and whatever, only reinforces the notion that the contest is unfair and rigged, irrespective of whether he actually does any rigging or not Perception may not always be reality, but to most people it is their truth. The Swedes really need to accept the situation for what it is and move on.

(Still, the Swedes are not even remotely close to the most obnoxious fanbase on the forum, let alone the internet. For instance one only has to take a single peek at the Jonestown, Guyana that is this year's Austria topic to witness the 90+ pages of auto-fellating fan-fiction cooked up by this board's resident Austrians. They're likable enough invidually but when put together in that thread, dear god. Someone might want to sic an admin on top of their doomcounting, backpedaling asses because at this rate I'm predicting a ritual mass suicide if Pænda fails to reach the Grand Final, which is a very real possibility! #PrayForPænda y'all. )

Well, you'd feel different if you also experienced having the whole Eurovision community against your nation. Christer often gets the blame for riggory and bafoonery, maybe we should consider Jon Ola Sand's part in this who is the one who actually hires Christer. Christer doesn't force himself onto Eurovision, they actually ask him to work for EBU.

And to call Sweden overrated: it's subjective. We've gotten very good scores the last years because we've had a knife sharp focus on sending quality entries. If juries and televoters keep voting for us I don't think you can call us overrated. In 2017 the Sweden hate was just as hyped yet we got 8th in the televote or something?

 

[Citelis]

Most people say that Sweden is overrated because of the last year result. Benjamin was probably a bit overrated by juries but he was underrated by televoting so the result was fair overall!

 

[BorisBubbles]

Meh, I'm okay with Benji finishing 7th. It's a generous finish for what he was, but Robin, Sanna and *especially* Frans were way worse in that regard.

And to call Sweden overrated: it's subjective. We've gotten very good scores the last years because we've had a knife sharp focus on sending quality entries. If juries and televoters keep voting for us I don't think you can call us overrated. In 2017 the Sweden hate was just as hyped yet we got 8th in the televote or something?

"Quality" itself is subjective, though. I think it's bold to say Sweden have been sending "quality entries" in the past 3 years (again, "I can't go on" is vulgar and fuckboiesque, "if I were sorry" is a paraphrased monstruosity in fake cockney that isn't even sung and "Undo" is just an embarrassing haggard ballad with awful, Latvia-levels of broken grammar), unless you equate "quality" to generic, safe hit-parade imitating pop, because *THAT* has been Sweden's strength at Eurovision since their debut.

No, Sweden's focus lies on *safety*, and being rewarded for it. And that's bloody unfair, especially given that other countries have produced ACTUAL original, quality entries (Gravity, Calm After the Storm, Here For You, Goodbye To Yesterday, LoveWave, Blackbird, Mall, City Lights, Stones, Mercy, etc) that still did worse than Sweden in the jury vote, despite not being particularly worse than the Swedish entry. Not a single sane person out there that saw last years Grand Final thought fucking Sweden and Austria were the two best songs in it, yet they scored the best anyway, to the outrage of casuals.

You know why?

Because they are generic songs. They sound like songs that can make it onto the radio but won't because *yawn*, you hear that sound all the time. Dance You Offs and I Cant Go Ons appeal just enough to the lowest common denominator, being sorta good at everything without excelling at anything, ensuring that they will do well in a five person jury vote (where songs are ranked from best to worst based on technicalities), but will bomb in a televote (where only the standouts entries get votes). There, here you have your explanation why Sweden bombed the televote in the past two years, free of charge!

In sum:
Imagine living in Sweden? Imagine living outside of Sweden and seeing them rake in free Top 10 finishes every year with songs that aren't particularly better than anyone else's, just more polished and produced because they can afford polishing/producing them better than countries such as Estonia and Moldova can.

 

[Realest]

Safe doesnt mean good. Germany send the safest Song last year and came 4th and the song became a huge (Radio)hit all over Europe and survived months after Eurovision. The Same happens often with Swedens Entries plus they invent new, never seen Performances. Thats why Juries award them. Sweden doesnt have any votingpower. Other Countries should finally step up their Game if they want the same Success.

 

[Swedenvision]

So annoying with all these "Sweden is overrated by juires"....
But no one complains by the fact that countires like Italy, Poland and Moldova ALWAYS is favoured by the televotes no matter what crap they sends...

Thank god for the juries, if not for them that old fahsion song from Italy that sounded like it was from 1960 would have won in 2015 for example.

 

[Gitte]

So annoying with all these "Sweden is overrated by juires"....
But no one complains by the fact that countires like Italy, Poland and Moldova ALWAYS is favoured by the televotes no matter what crap they sends...

Thank god for the juries, if not for them that old fahsion song from Italy that sounded like it was from 1960 would have won in 2015 for example.

Opinions differ.

 

[BorisBubbles]

So annoying with all these "Sweden is overrated by juires"....

To put things into perspective:


2013: Sweden is 3rd with the juries, and 18th in the televote (GF only)
2014: Sweden is 2nd with the juries, and 3rd in the televote (both shows)
2015: Sweden wins the jury vote with a giant lead, but comes 3rd in the televote (They won both votes in the SF)
2016: Sweden is 9th in the jury vote and 6th in the televote. This is the only instance since Eric Saade where Sweden does worse in the jury vote than in the televote (and good thing they did because If I Were Sorry is an abysmal song)
2017: Sweden is 3rd with the juries, but 8th with the audience in the Grand Final (3rd with jury, 4th with audience in the SF)
2018: Sweden finish 2nd with the jury but are only 23rd with the audience (1rst with jury, 6th with audience in the SF)

Of course this doesn't take into account how good the entries themselves are, but in the last six years Sweden definitely *was* overrated by the juries at least three times (in 2013, 2017 & 2018), compared to how popular they were with the audience. Only twice did they score about as well with both demographs (2014 & 2015), and only once did they do worse in the jury vote (2016). These are the facts. I believe only Australia , Austria and Malta do even worse in terms of consistently being carried to higher positions by jury votes. However as it stands now you can definitely say that Sweden are overrated, period.

But no one complains by the fact that countires like Italy, Poland and Moldova ALWAYS is favoured by the televotes no matter what crap they sends...

Rubbish. People have complained about diasporiae in the past, as have I, back when they were relevant, but times change. Diasporiae no longer command the power they used to, which of course means that Sweden (and Australia) now take the brunt of the criticism since the biases are more blatantly displayed than ever especially under the new split system.

Thank god for the juries, if not for them that old fahsion song from Italy that sounded like it was from 1960 would have won in 2015 for example.

Yes well obviously, because you would not have won without them.

 

[SwedishFailurez]

Everything you wrote

Yeah, Sweden relies heavily upon its own flag to succeed. Sweden has almost always been associated as generic and safe (for the better or worse). This also applies outside Eurovision, as every single corporation playing safe with its brands to succeed globally. As they do with their Disney Ballads, Apple Gadgets, and McDonalds-nutritions.
Sweden as a delegation, follow this formula non-stop and as long they are putting actual effort in their entries they deserve their success. It's one thing a decent entry like Kikki's song placed third in 1985, but something as mediocre and dull like this still get rewarded... Its indeed unfair and it shows how my country's delegation can just rely its own fame to end up third on the jury vote.

So, is Sweden overrated? Even if overrated is such of a strong word, but yes. Sweden is overrated especially in this decade, so much that Sweden feels more like a branded record label than an Eurovision country. Like how UK and Ireland took unfair advantages to succeed in the past, but today more countries are participating which means more entries are unfairly ignored during the Eurovision-week.

 

[Realest]

A Country isnt (necessarily) overrated by the Juries, only because it gets more Jury than Televotes. If Both Votes are the Same, the Voting wouldnt make sense. The good thing about this Votingsystem is that Countries can concentrate on one of these Votes. Also there is no Bias towards Sweden (or Australia/Malta etc..) since we have every year different Jurymembers and we never know if the Juries of 2018 would have awarded the swedish Entry from 2017 etc... Btw. some people forgot that Eric Saade was Europes Winner, which the EBU hide from us or that its the Juries Fault that Sweden didnt qualify once.

Jury vs Televote:

2009: 27 vs 59
2010: 76 vs 64 (But still the Juries killed Sweden, so 64 is actually better)
2011: 106 vs 221
2012: 296 vs 343
2013: 180 vs 20 approx.
2014: 201 vs 190
2015: 363 vs 279
2016: 122 vs 139
2017: 218 vs 126
2018: 253 vs 21

1766 vs 1398 (55.81% vs 44.19%)

So overall this looks fair except 2013 maybe.

 

[Alaska49]

So annoying with all these "Sweden is overrated by juires"....
But no one complains by the fact that countires like Italy, Poland and Moldova ALWAYS is favoured by the televotes no matter what crap they sends...

Thank god for the juries, if not for them that old fahsion song from Italy that sounded like it was from 1960 would have won in 2015 for example.

people literally do nothing but complain about diaspora and block voting 24/7 after the grand final every single year even though they clearly have no impact or influence whatsoever in the highest placements of the contest. people still say michal slayed in 2016 because of disspora even though poland NQ'd most years before 2014. eastern european countries have it MUCH harder than sweden in this fanbase. like almost laughably.

also grande amore is brilliant and juries betrayed their own reasoning by voting it down, and it doesn't even sound that dated and i don't see how that is a problem after salvador won, but if that's such a problem then i am sure you are in favour of juries demolishing john lundvik's definitely not contemporary song, right? hypothetically of course. we all know they won't do that because SWEDENNNNNN.

 

[Pawhlen]

Well, you'd feel different if you also experienced having the whole Eurovision community against your nation. Christer often gets the blame for riggory and bafoonery, maybe we should consider Jon Ola Sand's part in this who is the one who actually hires Christer. Christer doesn't force himself onto Eurovision, they actually ask him to work for EBU.

And to call Sweden overrated: it's subjective. We've gotten very good scores the last years because we've had a knife sharp focus on sending quality entries. If juries and televoters keep voting for us I don't think you can call us overrated. In 2017 the Sweden hate was just as hyped yet we got 8th in the televote or something?

You are just wasting your time trying to make these people actually understand the whole problem X-OI

the most people in here are jealous, but they don´t want to admit that, and that´s natural, you never want to show your weakness to anybody else. The hilarious thing about this however is the pathetic argumentations these people have regarding our entries every year (like the one regarding that we didn´t change our stage performance last year). Come on people, critizise the song with good solid argumentations, it´s not that hard at all

And what´s even worse is that now they are starting to attack swedish journalists (not talking about those from Aftonbladet or Expressen)

And yet, they wonder why we Swedes get defensive in this argumentation...

These kind of fans is exactly what will make this contest die in 4-5 years. And I´m so tired of it

 

[BorisBubbles]

Oh I understand the argument, don't worry. People are expressing their Sweden Fatigue without nuance and it's frustrating because it appears they are hating Sweden for the sake of hating Sweden, which is never productive. "Why are *they* doing well and not *us*", but that's an understandable reaction, is it not? Surely you can empathise with this?

Many people also fail to see why Sweden excel at the jury vote; It's isn't really a question of "song quality", but of resources. Sweden is by far the most influentual country in pop music, like ever. Many pop trends have been invented in Sweden before they gained world-wide popularity. (Especially featherlight contemporary pop. The artists which debuted new pop trends, be it ABBA or Ace of Base or Army of Lovers or Lykke Li, are all from Sweden). Sweden can also afford to churn out polished, well-produced, radio-friendly pop songs at a fairly low opportunity cost because many of the world-class composers, lyricists and choreographers either are from Sweden or live there as a part of their job. No matter what Sweden does, they will always at least competent at Eurovision.

For me, personally, I am mostly annoyed by the tunes Sweden sends to Eurovision: I rarely find them innovative or interesting (unless they come alive on the stage, like Heroes did) and they always do well, because, you know, they're well-produced and well-cared for. I'm all about the underrated indie gems, however. (my favourite ESC nations are Estonia and Slovenia) Same reason why I find it hard to root for Russia or Australia, even when I like their entries. I know they will do well even if I think the song itself is a load of crap and it frustrates me, because, you know... Is "Something Better" really worse than "Undo"? Idts. But thats just me.

Now, I do not agree that we should all dogpile HATEHATEHATE on Sweden simply for existing [HYPOCRISY ALERT! ABORT ABORT], tempting as it is, but the entire argument can be condensed to just one word: Oversaturization. Eurofans have simply grown tired of Sweden's hegemony, like they have with Ireland, UK and France (to name a few countries which also used to dominate ESC and then started to flop badly) and desperately want something new. Sweden are currently in a musical Golden Age, in which they've appeared untouchable and Sweden Haters are slowly starting to realize they can be beaten. So they pounce on each opportunity to rub it in.

I don't know anything about journalists being attacked or anything because of their opinions, but if that's the case it's sad. Free press and free expression of opinion are wonderful values. However, critical questions should be asked, even if they bring to light truths you don't wish to accept. No point beating yourself up over the situation, it is the way it is. Sweden will, at some point, stop being a powerhouse in Eurovision, only to rise again from its ashes in a few years' time. Like they always have.