Dear WL-ers, please give me your thoughts on this concept. 🤍
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From a roster perspective I'd be open to seeing the Waiting List added as a 61st nation in the contest that competed representing the whole list. While the idea of allowing WL nations to plug the gaps is fine, from my perspective I'd hate to be given the chance to compete and then have that taken away from me. Perhaps just have a separate NF during the NSC NF season with one song from each pure WLer who wants to potentially send a song?
I've been in every single edition since NSC 20 and I'm very proud of that record. I would hate to take that opportunity away from a nation once they have made their debut.
I've been in every single edition since NSC 20 and I'm very proud of that record. I would hate to take that opportunity away from a nation once they have made their debut.
Morty
Well-known member
I'm against having a qualification round to pick a WL entry, because I don't think it's going to work, but to have WL nations fill in the blanks in NSC editions would definitely work for me. 27 songs in each semi shouldn't be a problem for any of us, and it would give me a chance to finally join the 27 club. 
No, not the one from Dark Side.
And there are different ways this could be handled:
One is to go by the WL order, which at the moment would mean that Mormadorei would take part in pretty much every edition, because there's "always" someone that's skipping an edition. Dalisska would be getting many editions too, and in NSC 186, even Utopolis in 6th would get an edition. In NSC 176, Effiland in 9th would get a chance.
Another way is to let random.org choose between those who want to send an entry (those who wants a perfect run like Sean would then have to wait until they are proper NSC roster members instead). This would give more WL nations a chance to shine, but it'd also be impossible to build any type of streak. I figure the WL nations should get to decide which option to go for.
No, not the one from Dark Side.And there are different ways this could be handled:
One is to go by the WL order, which at the moment would mean that Mormadorei would take part in pretty much every edition, because there's "always" someone that's skipping an edition. Dalisska would be getting many editions too, and in NSC 186, even Utopolis in 6th would get an edition. In NSC 176, Effiland in 9th would get a chance.
Another way is to let random.org choose between those who want to send an entry (those who wants a perfect run like Sean would then have to wait until they are proper NSC roster members instead). This would give more WL nations a chance to shine, but it'd also be impossible to build any type of streak. I figure the WL nations should get to decide which option to go for.
This is exactly what happened to me during the microstate qualification era and I hate it
I debuted in the main contest in NSC 10, but technically I didn't take part in NSC 11 because I didn't make it past the microstate qualifications that edition. (I still insist that it counts, but certain people like to disagree...) It's literally the only blip on my record, and there was nothing I could do about it.However, I don't want to project my baggage onto other people. Maybe the WLers don't care about this (which seems to be the case from what I can see here). So I'm open to these ideas. I think filling out the 60 participants in each edition with the nations at the top of the WL would be the simplest one of these to implement, and probably the least controversial as it doesn't interfere with WLSC or change the number of participants/qualifiers in the main edition.
pyryniemi
Well-known member
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I think the idea of WL being 1 nation that takes part every edi (under the name "Waiting List" or smth like that, no matter whose suggestion the song is) could work. Maybe they shouldn't be able to host, but can PQ?
I'd prefer it to be 59+1 rather than 60+1, and I also think 60 should stay as the maximum number of entries, not the ideal number.
I prefer smaller editions in general, they feel more "cosy" and less competitive. Also, the idea of WLers just randomly taking part 1 edi here and there before debuting seems a bit...messy.
I'd prefer it to be 59+1 rather than 60+1, and I also think 60 should stay as the maximum number of entries, not the ideal number.
I prefer smaller editions in general, they feel more "cosy" and less competitive. Also, the idea of WLers just randomly taking part 1 edi here and there before debuting seems a bit...messy.
Uto
Veteran
There are two issues here:
- Teh problem
- Teh solution
One does not relate to the other.
The problem:
In any, and I mean any, issue that NSC has the WL gets fucked over. It is what it is. All the rules are against us. Current NSC my 12 and 10 got blanked by WL because people on WL have no ears etc. Still, I HAVE TO vote or I get fucked over. So every three or four weeks I get to see my carefully curated votes be relegated to utter meaninglessness because of some idiots who created some bullshit rules. Fuck that. It is tiresome, humiliating and it makes me want to go to Canada to shoot innocent seals in the fucking face.
Apart from that there's the issue that NSC makes 0 attempts at connecting to the WL. Sure, some members do, and they are appreciated, but most of them don't give a shit. We've seen with the whole Aimulli thing how easy it is to just play the victim and get people on board with screwing us over. It's bullshit at clear daylight and it reeks of it too.
The solution:
Have one single member participate in NSC? What? Who? I don't care when fucking Reym-L-Dneurb participates. It's a ghost. Contributes jack shit. I don't even care when for instance Banan participates, it's not me. When Utopolis participates I care obviously, but I don't want to be such an egoistical freakshow as to agree to some shitty plan because it might offer me a dumb boon. And the question is how does this solve the issue? NSC and WL are still worlds apart even when some country participates for a single time. Yeah, of course there's bound to be a country that leaves an impression, there's also going to be a lot of hurlyburly about people not supposed to be there. I'm just not positive this will work out in any positive way and I don't expect it to solve any issue at all. Worse, it will give the impression that the WL is taken seriously in a way that blatantly does not do that at all. So yeah, no support from me. It might help a slight slight bit, but it's either a coup-the-grace or nothing to me. Tokenism I do not do.
In mean, what is supposed to happen is that the WL is no longer required to vote in NSC or if that can't be done that our votes are counted in full. Propose that and you have my support. Afterwards we might give WL a role, maybe roll out Pyreica plan. But first we should give our attention to the actual issues. Seems horribly naive to think that a song by for instance Marlfox is going to bring us closer to connecting to NSC. And winning the WLSC to qualify is just a stupid plan for so many reasons I'm not even going to explain it. WLSC should be completely free, it's what makes it bang n pop.
tl;dr
So yeah, love the whole thinking about possible ways to improve the WL situation, but the plan posited I'm not fond of.
- Teh problem
- Teh solution
One does not relate to the other.
The problem:
In any, and I mean any, issue that NSC has the WL gets fucked over. It is what it is. All the rules are against us. Current NSC my 12 and 10 got blanked by WL because people on WL have no ears etc. Still, I HAVE TO vote or I get fucked over. So every three or four weeks I get to see my carefully curated votes be relegated to utter meaninglessness because of some idiots who created some bullshit rules. Fuck that. It is tiresome, humiliating and it makes me want to go to Canada to shoot innocent seals in the fucking face.
Apart from that there's the issue that NSC makes 0 attempts at connecting to the WL. Sure, some members do, and they are appreciated, but most of them don't give a shit. We've seen with the whole Aimulli thing how easy it is to just play the victim and get people on board with screwing us over. It's bullshit at clear daylight and it reeks of it too.
The solution:
Have one single member participate in NSC? What? Who? I don't care when fucking Reym-L-Dneurb participates. It's a ghost. Contributes jack shit. I don't even care when for instance Banan participates, it's not me. When Utopolis participates I care obviously, but I don't want to be such an egoistical freakshow as to agree to some shitty plan because it might offer me a dumb boon. And the question is how does this solve the issue? NSC and WL are still worlds apart even when some country participates for a single time. Yeah, of course there's bound to be a country that leaves an impression, there's also going to be a lot of hurlyburly about people not supposed to be there. I'm just not positive this will work out in any positive way and I don't expect it to solve any issue at all. Worse, it will give the impression that the WL is taken seriously in a way that blatantly does not do that at all. So yeah, no support from me. It might help a slight slight bit, but it's either a coup-the-grace or nothing to me. Tokenism I do not do.
In mean, what is supposed to happen is that the WL is no longer required to vote in NSC or if that can't be done that our votes are counted in full. Propose that and you have my support. Afterwards we might give WL a role, maybe roll out Pyreica plan. But first we should give our attention to the actual issues. Seems horribly naive to think that a song by for instance Marlfox is going to bring us closer to connecting to NSC. And winning the WLSC to qualify is just a stupid plan for so many reasons I'm not even going to explain it. WLSC should be completely free, it's what makes it bang n pop.
tl;dr
So yeah, love the whole thinking about possible ways to improve the WL situation, but the plan posited I'm not fond of.
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Fearnavigatr
Well-known member
Memory is a bit foggy, but as far as I can recall, while the waiting list jury itself was introduced as a simple way to give WLers something to do (WLSC came much later), making it compulsory was more or less something that the WL itself requested because they wanted some sort of activity gauge and a way to get rid of AWOLs, it wasn't something the NSCers did for their own sake.
If that rule has played it's part and having a say in the main contest isn't as interesting anymore to today's WLers, I personally don't really mind if it goes per se, I'm just not sure about any viable alternatives for inactivity purging (if that's still necessary, which most people seem to think it is). Definitely open for suggestions though. I remember you suggested WLSC participation to the same effect before, but it feels strange to have NSC rules regulate a completely different and separate contest (after all, I agree that WLSC should be completely free), also I'm sure there are still individual WLers who aren't interested in WLSC and I wouldn't want to force them into it for the same reason you don't want to vote in the waiting list jury.
Uto
Veteran
The only thing more annoying than WLSC ghosts is WLSC ghosts voting in NSC and keeping their spot. I don't really care about NSC as long is I'm not in it. Not sure if others feel the same, but I do. When I'm in I will start caring. Solution is obvious: make WL votes count for full. I mean my 12 got blanked and my 10 as well last edition. Doesn't take much imagination to understand how it feels. With an average NSC taking 2,5 hours to complete and about 15 editions done so far we're close to 40 hours of work done, and it's not like I'm in the top spot or anything. It's horrible.
doctormalisimo
Well-known member
Some people are interested in NSC before they debut though, just because you're not doesn't mean that others might want to vote in editions, take part in spin offs etc. I agree it sucks especially when the waiting list is so long and takes a very long time to clear, but the current set-up discourages ghosting by making potential participants show interest before they officially join. If you hate ghosting members, then reforming the WL is not the fight you want to take on.
And having your favourites flop is a very NSC thing to happen. It will happen to you on the WL, it will happen to you on the roster, it's just part and parcel of a contest like this. Not being butthurt over results is the #1 way to enjoy NSC.
Now this is a good idea that I would totally be on board with. I don't see any real reason why WL votes should not be counted in full. It doesn't make anything harder for the host or for the participants, and I think it would be nice for WLers to have more of an active role in determining who wins NSC.
However, I don't like your attitude towards 'ghosts'. They are enjoying the contest in their own way, no need to hate on people for being quiet. Some people are shy or just don't like posting, and prefer other aspects of the contest. They are consistently voting in NSC, so clearly they are invested in being a part of the contest, just like you.
Fearnavigatr
Well-known member
I'm very sceptical, and it's not because I in any way don't want WLers to have a voice, but because opening up regular voting for an unspecified number of people without participating entries makes very little sense. What's to stop anyone from asking their friends to sign up just to give them 12, or creating a fake account with a VPN and do it yourself?
I've been following the discussion and haven't really added my two cents yet, because I'm not entirely sure what the best solution would be. I only know what I don't want to see implemented, and that is a vastly expanded roster forcing us into a three semi situation, since it was the worst experience possible in the other contest on the forum. But anything we can do to help WLers feel more included, or make their time on the WL better is a positive thing we should explore. I don't really have a problem scrapping the obligatory voting for WLers (if that is what the majority wants) if we can come up with a way to avoid new nations joining the roster and either having no clue how the contest works, or failing to send entries/vote right off the bat.
A couple of suggestions that I'll just throw out there:
Save mandatory NSC voting for WLers only when they are at the very top of the list, to prepare them for the big contest and ensure activity, while saving them from having to spend a whole year or more voting. Once they'd reach this stage of mandatory voting, their votes could even count as full votes as well.
Or, if mandatory voting is scrapped altogether, maybe have new nations joining the roster go through a short "trial period", with slightly harsher enforced rules; if they fail to send an entry and/or fail to vote in both the semi and the final in their first edition, they're out. A bit extreme maybe, but I don't know how else we'd be able to ensure a nation is going to be an active participant from the start.
A couple of suggestions that I'll just throw out there:
Save mandatory NSC voting for WLers only when they are at the very top of the list, to prepare them for the big contest and ensure activity, while saving them from having to spend a whole year or more voting. Once they'd reach this stage of mandatory voting, their votes could even count as full votes as well.
Or, if mandatory voting is scrapped altogether, maybe have new nations joining the roster go through a short "trial period", with slightly harsher enforced rules; if they fail to send an entry and/or fail to vote in both the semi and the final in their first edition, they're out. A bit extreme maybe, but I don't know how else we'd be able to ensure a nation is going to be an active participant from the start.
Well then, we can implement Ashley's rule of needing a minimum post count or account age. Or you can just trust people not to do shitty things like that. You said yourself that NSC is based in a certain amount of trust in fair play.
And why does it not make sense? If the WL was more integrated as part of the NSC community then it would feel perfectly natural for them to be able to vote as spectators. Let's bring them into the fold. I see no reason for them to need to have an entry in order to have a voice.
This is a nice idea. Maybe the top 3 or top 5 have to vote in the main contest or something like that, and their votes are counted as full nations. This seems like it might help address Jochen's fears about WL votes counting in full, as well as integrating them better into the community as they transition into full nations.
Fearnavigatr
Well-known member
Yes, just like you said NSCers don't want fundamental changes.
It's not that I necessarily fear those extreme examples (intended as an illustration), all I mean is that a free-for-all system, participation or not, that makes the final pretty much an open poll doesn't make sense to me, for the same reason we have rest juries and don't allow people to vote freely in either semi.
A regulated system with a fixed amount of predetermined guest voters without x-factors, that's another thing entirely. Not necessarily one I'd support myself (who knows though?), but one that would make sense
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HayashiM
Veteran
Streaks: I might be wrong, but did you guys have to wait for 1-2 years in the early NSC era? I think your perception might be slightly different... If anyone thinks they'll care about their streak in the future, they can simply refuse to go as a substitute. I still don't think this would be a good argument to leave existing free slots vacant when there's people who might potentially want to fill in - as an opportunity, and not an obligation. Gaëlle's proposal enables more people to have more fun on their own terms.
Current form of the WL vote in NSC sucks: I don't agree with many ideas from Uto's post, but here I agree 100%. The issue has nothing to do with the fact that "I am so gutted my faves did not do well". The issue is we take a lot of time to do proper rankings of an event we are not in, and this effort mostly goes wasted. The full member country has 1.6-1.8% of the final say. A WL country currently has 1/20th of that, so it's 0.1% at best. That's a very time consuming and ineffective way of ghostbusting.
All in all, I'd like a merger of Anna's and Gaëlle's ideas. Mandatory voting (having a full weight) for 3-5 nations on the top of the WL. Plus the voluntary option to go as a temporary substitute when others fail to confirm.
Current form of the WL vote in NSC sucks: I don't agree with many ideas from Uto's post, but here I agree 100%. The issue has nothing to do with the fact that "I am so gutted my faves did not do well". The issue is we take a lot of time to do proper rankings of an event we are not in, and this effort mostly goes wasted. The full member country has 1.6-1.8% of the final say. A WL country currently has 1/20th of that, so it's 0.1% at best. That's a very time consuming and ineffective way of ghostbusting.
All in all, I'd like a merger of Anna's and Gaëlle's ideas. Mandatory voting (having a full weight) for 3-5 nations on the top of the WL. Plus the voluntary option to go as a temporary substitute when others fail to confirm.
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HayashiM
Veteran
As for ghostbusting (I am in favour of it), why shouldn't participating in WLSC be equally telling as voting in the WL jury for the NSC? If we set any other changes aside, I think participating in WLSC at least once per 3 editions should be acknowledged as a viable alternative to voting in the WL jury (you could choose, no one would have to be pushed to participate in WLSC).
Obviously, the proposal here is merely a bandaid to a bleeding gash. So let's discuss the real problems here :
- The length of the WL and the time it takes to get to the main roster
When I joined WL on 28th November 2019, I was 9th on the list and it took me 14 months to enter. Currently, the #9 is Effiland, who joined circa mid-July 2020. Almost a year already, and if it takes as much time for him that it did for me then he won't join the main roster until...August 2022. And it's in no way right, but we'll get to that later. Short story short, if the WL had been as long as it currently is I wouldn't have bothered. I know many people who would like to play in NSC, because creating your own country and sending whatever you like is the epitome of a dream contest, but because of the WL, they won't.
So now you might think "well good for them, joining now only show all the commitment they're willing to give". Which brings us to the core question of the situation : what type of commitment should we talk about ? Should we show any commitment at all ?
- Having to vote in the final, knowing it will have almost no impact
I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not we should scrap it altogether, but having to mandatory vote for a contest you're not part of, is inherently wrong. Especially when those votes won't count in the end.
The preparation for the main contest argument has been thrown in a few times, but do you really believe in its usefulness ? The other contests on this forum with their very short waiting lists (or the lack of) show us that people who join directly don't have more problems than those who have been there since the start. And seriously, voting and confirming in time is the most basic thing ever, I don't understand people who fail to do it repetitively.
Now, you might say that voting in the final show the interest you have in the contest. Yes, of course, because everyone here joined because they are interested in the songs displayed in NSC I'm sure we all find entries we appreciate (heck, song-wise NSC is the contest I relate the most to), but you didn't solely join because of that. Or if you did, good for you, but I bet for the majority it's not the case. From what I gathered, creating your own country and being able to send whatever you want to are the true reasons for joining this contest in particular.
What does voting in the NSC final give us in return ? Nothing at all. And starting from that point things should change. Waiting sucks enough as it is, people shouldn't take any more blow.
So, how ?
About voting
There are only 2 solutions to this problem : either break all voting link between WL and main contest... or reinforce it.
Only asking the top 3/5 to vote in the final, and having their votes counted in full would fall into the second category. On paper it feels better for me to not force those who are at the end of the list to vote for years before joining, but then, why would we force those who are at the top ? Is it any better ?
Other side of the coin would be closer to WV and OM system. You have to vote in neither, and it doesn't affect the contest negatively when these people join. Plus in OM you can fill in the empty spots.
About the length of the WL
Okay. What I'm about to say won't please people but it has to be said. In previous threads, you were all discussing how we could shorten the WL, while the real question is : how do we let more people in without changing the current number of semis and participants ?
By letting more people out.
It's as easy as that. Everyone would benefit from a faster turnover.
Those who might feel a low interest at the moment won't be as afraid of dropping from NSC -> those who are interested will join faster -> WL will be shorter -> the droppers won't hesitate before joining the WL knowing they won't have to wait more than a year -> they will be in again when their interest is renewed.
And this brings me to my biggest problem with the current system : it's easier to stay in NSC than it is to stay in the WL. And it's NOT normal. It should be 50/50 at most on WL's part.
Currently, for WL
If you can't vote, just take a break. 3 editions is a fucking long time, 2.5 months. Okay, something bad might happen to the member in the meantime, but these are exceptions, and we wouldn't even know about it anyway.
And on that topic : failure to vote in semi-final should count too.
From previous threads, I saw people feared it would damage the stability of the contest. Please, we are 60 here, with some being here from the start. The NSC core won't be shaken that easily.
And because the question on how to shorten the WL will still be on, let me talk about it.
Yes, voting in the NSC final is a great way to throw out those who aren't invested enough. But it has many other problems too I already talked about before, so I'll try to consider other options.
I'm all for establishing a minimum post count. It doesn't have to be 30 like in WV, but even 15 would be enough to ensure we don't get random people registering to just give 12 to their friends. Not saying currently it is the case, but wouldn't surprise me if it happened or will happen. After all, you can just random.org your WL to ensure your place in the WL (hey, another reason why mandatory voting isn't ideal).
I don't know about you, but it's a basic rule I've seen on other non-ESC-related forums for various contests, and everyone agrees with it.
About ghost players in general, it's not like I hate them or anything, but I don't really understand the point of participating when you never interact with the community you seem to be part of, not even to say thanks to the host and those who voted for you
It won't change how I vote (ie the Nurdia discussion), but it sure as hell won't help me connect with the community as a whole if half of them don't care.
So yes, if I had people with a total of 0 posts before me in the list, even after been called out only to present themselves or their nation, I would be mad as well.
If it comes to it, we could even consider a compromise : either vote in NSC final (with your votes counted in full), or participate in WLSC. While still allowing people to do both if they want to.
It is in no way an easy question, but I'm glad we got to discuss it and try to think of a fairer system for everyone. I might come back later, when I'm not supposed to be working you know, but I think I said what I've been dying to.
- The length of the WL and the time it takes to get to the main roster
When I joined WL on 28th November 2019, I was 9th on the list and it took me 14 months to enter. Currently, the #9 is Effiland, who joined circa mid-July 2020. Almost a year already, and if it takes as much time for him that it did for me then he won't join the main roster until...August 2022. And it's in no way right, but we'll get to that later. Short story short, if the WL had been as long as it currently is I wouldn't have bothered. I know many people who would like to play in NSC, because creating your own country and sending whatever you like is the epitome of a dream contest, but because of the WL, they won't.
So now you might think "well good for them, joining now only show all the commitment they're willing to give". Which brings us to the core question of the situation : what type of commitment should we talk about ? Should we show any commitment at all ?
- Having to vote in the final, knowing it will have almost no impact
I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not we should scrap it altogether, but having to mandatory vote for a contest you're not part of, is inherently wrong. Especially when those votes won't count in the end.
The preparation for the main contest argument has been thrown in a few times, but do you really believe in its usefulness ? The other contests on this forum with their very short waiting lists (or the lack of) show us that people who join directly don't have more problems than those who have been there since the start. And seriously, voting and confirming in time is the most basic thing ever, I don't understand people who fail to do it repetitively.
Now, you might say that voting in the final show the interest you have in the contest. Yes, of course, because everyone here joined because they are interested in the songs displayed in NSC
I'm sure we all find entries we appreciate (heck, song-wise NSC is the contest I relate the most to), but you didn't solely join because of that. Or if you did, good for you, but I bet for the majority it's not the case. From what I gathered, creating your own country and being able to send whatever you want to are the true reasons for joining this contest in particular.What does voting in the NSC final give us in return ? Nothing at all. And starting from that point things should change. Waiting sucks enough as it is, people shouldn't take any more blow.
So, how ?
About voting
There are only 2 solutions to this problem : either break all voting link between WL and main contest... or reinforce it.
Only asking the top 3/5 to vote in the final, and having their votes counted in full would fall into the second category. On paper it feels better for me to not force those who are at the end of the list to vote for years before joining, but then, why would we force those who are at the top ? Is it any better ?
Other side of the coin would be closer to WV and OM system. You have to vote in neither, and it doesn't affect the contest negatively when these people join. Plus in OM you can fill in the empty spots.
About the length of the WL
Okay. What I'm about to say won't please people but it has to be said. In previous threads, you were all discussing how we could shorten the WL, while the real question is : how do we let more people in without changing the current number of semis and participants ?
By letting more people out.
It's as easy as that. Everyone would benefit from a faster turnover.
Those who might feel a low interest at the moment won't be as afraid of dropping from NSC -> those who are interested will join faster -> WL will be shorter -> the droppers won't hesitate before joining the WL knowing they won't have to wait more than a year -> they will be in again when their interest is renewed.
And this brings me to my biggest problem with the current system : it's easier to stay in NSC than it is to stay in the WL. And it's NOT normal. It should be 50/50 at most on WL's part.
Currently, for WL
- Any waiting list nations who fail to vote will be moved 2 places down on the list.
- Nations who fail to vote 2 finals in a row will be removed from the list.
- Failure to confirm participation for two consecutive editions
- Failure to vote in three consecutive finals, including editions the nation is not a participant in
If you can't vote, just take a break. 3 editions is a fucking long time, 2.5 months. Okay, something bad might happen to the member in the meantime, but these are exceptions, and we wouldn't even know about it anyway.
And on that topic : failure to vote in semi-final should count too.
From previous threads, I saw people feared it would damage the stability of the contest. Please, we are 60 here, with some being here from the start. The NSC core won't be shaken that easily.
And because the question on how to shorten the WL will still be on, let me talk about it.
Yes, voting in the NSC final is a great way to throw out those who aren't invested enough. But it has many other problems too I already talked about before, so I'll try to consider other options.
I'm all for establishing a minimum post count. It doesn't have to be 30 like in WV, but even 15 would be enough to ensure we don't get random people registering to just give 12 to their friends. Not saying currently it is the case, but wouldn't surprise me if it happened or will happen. After all, you can just random.org your WL to ensure your place in the WL (hey, another reason why mandatory voting isn't ideal).
I don't know about you, but it's a basic rule I've seen on other non-ESC-related forums for various contests, and everyone agrees with it.
About ghost players in general, it's not like I hate them or anything, but I don't really understand the point of participating when you never interact with the community you seem to be part of, not even to say thanks to the host and those who voted for you
It won't change how I vote (ie the Nurdia discussion), but it sure as hell won't help me connect with the community as a whole if half of them don't care.So yes, if I had people with a total of 0 posts before me in the list, even after been called out only to present themselves or their nation, I would be mad as well.
If it comes to it, we could even consider a compromise : either vote in NSC final (with your votes counted in full), or participate in WLSC. While still allowing people to do both if they want to.
It is in no way an easy question, but I'm glad we got to discuss it and try to think of a fairer system for everyone. I might come back later, when I'm not supposed to be working you know, but I think I said what I've been dying to.
Schlagerman1
Well-known member
- Joined
- October 1, 2009
- Posts
- 11,120
The problem here is that some people seem to be on the WL to compete in WLSC and not to become a full member of NSC. I am sorry, but that is what I have seen and heard so far. The WL excist to make people who cares about NSC and wants to join it as a full member. The mandatory voting for the WL is there to ensure that we get people joining, that care and want to join the contest. That the nation doesn't take a full spot in the list and can wait out and lure the system, that we know that people got the interest in music in the way we do. Maybe there are people don't have the same idea as me about it, but that is my point of view.
I am sure there are changes that needs to be made here. But I don't think that removing the mandatory voting for WLers will change anything. You will still feel let out, you will feel the sense of being "almost" a nation on the roster, but in the end you are not. I would love to make som bigger changes, maybe letting a few more contries in the roster, but I am afraid it will make things harder for people to qualify, in a contest where still more members every edition miss the final than going through. And a third semi will probably not help the already challenged host for each edition.
I am glad WLSC excist, I joined a few editions while I was on the list and had some fun there, got 2nd and 3rd there for example. It is a good little contest as well, that works well on the side of NSC as a way to test out the waters of your taste. Maybe the WLSC could work as some kind of indication for later joining the contest, that you need to be competing in that at least every other edition to keep your spot in the WL. I am though not sure if that works, but it could be something to discuss as well.
I understand that people want changes quickly on this, but everyone must know that we are a community that wants to secure that everyone wants to have a voice in matters and then we vote for it. So yeah, it will take a few more editions probably, yes in that time you need to vote in the NSC-finals. But sooner rather than later, I am sure we can come up with a solution that works for most people.
I am sure there are changes that needs to be made here. But I don't think that removing the mandatory voting for WLers will change anything. You will still feel let out, you will feel the sense of being "almost" a nation on the roster, but in the end you are not. I would love to make som bigger changes, maybe letting a few more contries in the roster, but I am afraid it will make things harder for people to qualify, in a contest where still more members every edition miss the final than going through. And a third semi will probably not help the already challenged host for each edition.
I am glad WLSC excist, I joined a few editions while I was on the list and had some fun there, got 2nd and 3rd there for example. It is a good little contest as well, that works well on the side of NSC as a way to test out the waters of your taste. Maybe the WLSC could work as some kind of indication for later joining the contest, that you need to be competing in that at least every other edition to keep your spot in the WL. I am though not sure if that works, but it could be something to discuss as well.
I understand that people want changes quickly on this, but everyone must know that we are a community that wants to secure that everyone wants to have a voice in matters and then we vote for it. So yeah, it will take a few more editions probably, yes in that time you need to vote in the NSC-finals. But sooner rather than later, I am sure we can come up with a solution that works for most people.
HayashiM
Veteran
I don't really see this as THE problem here. I only know about two such countries (Sean's Låpøtré and Mike's Joseyeon - though maybe Mike has changed his mind in the meantime). There's certainly more people who don't partake in WLSC while voting in the WL NSC jury.
(would these people be more willing to participate in WLSC here and there if it was an alternative to the other obligation? I think that's an interesting option to ponder...)