Countries who never won the ESC?

[rajo]

But countries and borders are changing throughout history. Look at Germany - Germany 1982 is completely different from Germany 2010. Why is this the same winner according to your logic?

Of course it is, because it is the legal successor state!

And Serbia-Montenegro was the legal successor of Yugoslavia until 2006, because all the other countries abandoned Yugoslavia. But Croatia was the representative for Yugoslavia in 1989... Actually Yugoslavia was the other name for Serbia and Montenegro.

The history of Yugoslavia ends in 2006, when Serbia and Montenegro split up to become independent countries.

But since then the shape of Serbia still was changing. Serbia won in 2007, but Kosovo abandoned Serbia in 2008. So we have a new Serbia since 2008. And if the borderlines were reassessed in the future, things would change again?

Look at the caucusus:

Georgia may still fall apart: Abkhasia and South Ossetia may become independent or join Russia. Does this change Russia and Georgia for the statistical purposes?

So, if you want to be very precise with your statistics, than you have to consider a lot of facts. The map of Europe changes almost every year and sometimes there are legal successors and sometimes there are not.

 

[AdelAdel]

And the same goes for USSR (not talking about ESC right now). Whenever the USSR achieved something in the past, the inheritance goes only to Russia, now.

 

[rajo]

Until 2006 it would have been a dilemma to assign the Yugoslavian victory of 1989 for the records, because Yugoslavia still existed but Croatia represented the former Yugoslavia back then. But by now, it is easy, because Yugoslavia is gone.

 

[NemesisNick]

Sorry this is a bit long, but there's a lot to explain.

But countries and borders are changing throughout history. Look at Germany - Germany 1982 is completely different from Germany 2010. Why is this the same winner according to your logic?

If you wanted to be really pedantic about Germany, the EBU could say the following:
1) West Germany participated from 1956 to 1990, won for the first (and only ever) time in 1982, and thus hosted it from Munich in 1983. From 1991 onwards it no longer existed as a nation.
2) A new country Germany (which didn't exist prior to 1991) had its debut entry in 1991, its first ever win in 2010 and hence hosted it from Dusseldorf in 2011.

But they don't. Even though sometimes I saw Germany shown as West Germany in the 1980s (e.g. in a newspaper article about the ESC), as far as the EBU is concerned, it's always been Germany from 1956 to 2012, and has had two wins (1982, 2010). Take a look at the eurovision.tv Germany page and it lists all Germany's entries from 1956 to 2012. The official name for West Germany was FRG - Federal Republic of Germany (Bundesrepublik Deutschland), and still is since reunification of Germany late 1990. Presumably that's why as, as far as the EBU are concerned, West Germany (1956-1990) and Germany (1991 to-date) are the same country. East Germany, aka GDR - German Democratic Republic (Deutsche Demokratische Republik), never took part in the ESC, and ceased to exist when Germany was reunited on 3 October 1990.

And Serbia-Montenegro was the legal successor of Yugoslavia until 2006, because all the other countries abandoned Yugoslavia. But Croatia was the representative for Yugoslavia in 1989... Actually Yugoslavia was the other name for Serbia and Montenegro.

The history of Yugoslavia ends in 2006, when Serbia and Montenegro split up to become independent countries.

Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest is quite a tricky issue, and here's an interesting page on Wikipedia about it. According to that, the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia participated in the ESC from 1961 to 1991 under the name Yugoslavia, won once in 1989, and hosted it from Zagreb in 1990.

The breakup of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia happened during 1991 (after the 1991 ESC). By the time of the Yugoslav national final Jugovizija 1992, Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia had already broken away from SFR Yugoslavia and didn't take part in Jugovizija 1992. However entries from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro and Serbia entered. The winner, which went on to represent "Ljubim Te Pesmama" - Extra Nena in the ESC on Saturday 9 May 1992 was from Serbia. In the interim period, Bosnia & Herzegovina gained independence on 1 March 1992, and what was left of SFR Yugoslavia (an area equivalent to the later Serbia & Montenegro) became officially known as Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on 28 April 1992. I've seen from another source that Extra Nena's "Ljubim Te Pesmama" ended up representing just the then new country Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, albeit still under the name Yugoslavia, in the ESC 1992 on 9 May 1992. From 1993 onwards, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was excluded from the ESC for some reason, one reason I've seen somewhere was that JRT ceased to exist by 1993.

In 2003 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was reconstituted as a political union called State Union of Serbia and Montenegro. From what I can gather of that, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (an area equivalent to Serbia and Montenegro) was one country from 1992 to 2003, whereas State Union of Serbia and Montenegro was a loosely coupled pair of two states from 2003 to 2006. So you see, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and are evidently not quite the same thing. Effectively therefore, Yugoslavia officially ceased to exist in 2003 at the time of the said reconstitution. The State Union of Serbia and Montenegro first entered the ESC in 2004, and had its last ever entry in 2006 (though that year it withdrew last minute but still voted in the grand final). Serbia and Montenegro became fully independent in June 2006, and took part in the ESC as two new countries in 2007.

If the EBU wanted to be really pedantic about Yugoslavia and its component countries in the ESC 1961 to present, they'd have done the following:
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (under then name Yugoslavia): first entry 1961, last entry 1991, had just one win in 1989 and hosted the Contest in 1990.
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (under the name FR Yugoslavia to make it clear it was a new, different country to the previously mentioned Yugoslavia): first (and only ever) entry 1992, never won or hosted ESC in its short lifetime.
Croatia: first entry 1993, no wins to-date.
Bosnia & Herzegovina: first entry 1993, no wins to-date.
Slovenia: first entry 1993, no wins to-date.
F.Y.R. Macedonia: first entry 1998, no wins to-date.
State Union of Serbia and Montenegro (under the name Serbia and Montenegro): first entry 2004, last entry 2006, never won or hosted ESC in its short lifetime.
Serbia: first entry 2007, first win 2007, hosted ESC 2008.
Montenegro: first entry 2007, never qualified from semi-final to-date.

The Yugoslavia / Serbia & Montenegro issue is a rather hot topic, in particular the 1992 Yugoslavia entry "Ljubim Te Pesmama" - Extra Nena. Some argue it's really Serbia & Montenegro's first entry rather than Yugoslavia's last entry; indeed the Diggiloo Thrush actually lists it on the Serbia & Montenegro page.

As far as I'm concerned, the only official source for ESC history by year and country is the official ESC site Eurovision Song Contest - Baku 2012 Take a look at the History By Country page. It lists Yugoslavia as having its first entry in 1961, and one victory (1989). Croatia is listed as having first entered in 1993, and no victories to-date. It even shows Serbia & Montenegro as a country in its own right, 3 entries altogether, first entry 2004, no victories. Serbia is a separate country on the list, first entry 2007, one victory 2007.

If you look at individual country pages you will see:
Yugoslavia: all entries from 1961 to 1992. Yes the 1992 Yugoslavia entry, Extra Nena - "Ljubim Te Pesmama" is on the Yugoslavia page, not the Serbia & Montenegro page, so it is Yugoslavia's last ever entry as far as the EBU is concerned.
Croatia: all entries 1993 to 2012.
Serbia & Montenegro: 2004 to 2006. It actually menions the 2006 withdrawal.
Serbia: 2007 to-date.

So it appears that, as far as the EBU is concerned, Yugoslavia's only win in 1989 still belongs to Yugoslavia (which for statistical purposes is a country that no longer exists), not Croatia.

You've got to remember the ESC has been going for over 50 years. Some countries that entered (e.g. Yugoslavia) or perhaps in theory could have entered (e.g East Germany, USSR) but never did don't exist any more, simple as that. Many present-day eastern bloc countries that have debuted since 1993 (ex-Yugoslavia and ex-USSR countries) didn't exist as independent countries when the ESC started in 1956.

 

[AdelAdel]

Another reason why West Germany and Germany are shown as one and the same is because today's Germany is West Germany with added territory. The so-called "reunification" was nothing more but an annexation of East Germany by West Germany, and the "new" state was called "Federal Republic of Germany" - exactly how West Germany was called.

As for Croatia/Yugoslavia, I know that the official statement is that the 1989 win was by a country that no longer exists, but common sense tells you that Croatia legally inherits that win, even though it won't be stated that way in any official documents.

 

[rajo]

I would still say Croatia was chosen to represent Yugoslavia in 1989 Eurovision.

During its existence, SFR Yugoslavia was represented by a variety of artists from five of the eight Yugoslav federal units. These artists were from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia and Slovenia, with Macedonia, Vojvodina, and Kosovo never passing the national pre-selection. Croatia was the most successful constituent republic, as its performers won the national contest 13 out of the 26 times SFR Yugoslavia took part in the contest. From 1977 to 1980, and in 1985, Yugoslavia didn't participate in the contest.

The Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia won the Eurovision Song Contest 1989 with the song "Rock Me" by the group Riva. Following the rules of the contest, the Eurovision Song Contest 1990 took place in Zagreb, as the entry came from Croatia.

Yugoslavia in the Eurovision Song Contest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I really see a point in giving the 1989 victory to Croatia.

We have to be aware that the journey for the ex-Yugoslavian countries has not yet ended, and maybe never will. We cannot be sure that Bosnia and Herzegovina will remain stable, it could break up into two countries or could join Croatia and Serbia.

Serbia could lose Vojvodina.

Albania could claim Kosovo and parts of Macedonia.

FYR Macedonia could get a new constitution and name, but could also vanish.

What about statistics then?


So if we had East Germany in the contest, how would the statistics look then? So we would have statistics for each West and East Germany, and the 2010 victory would have been the first victory for Germany.

 

[NemesisNick]

As for Croatia/Yugoslavia, I know that the official statement is that the 1989 win was by a country that no longer exists, but common sense tells you that Croatia legally inherits that win, even though it won't be stated that way in any official documents.

I would still say Croatia was chosen to represent Yugoslavia in 1989 Eurovision.
I really see a point in giving the 1989 victory to Croatia.

You have to bear in mind that Croatia didn't exist as a standalone nation when Riva won the 1989 ESC with "Rock Me". That song represented the whole of what was then SFR Yugoslavia, not just Croatia. Croatia first entered as an independent nation in 1993, therefore if they win next year 2013 the EBU will (almost certainly) regard that as their first ever win; the 1989 Yugoslavia win won't count.

We have to be aware that the journey for the ex-Yugoslavian countries has not yet ended, and maybe never will.

Of course there is still scope for further change among the Balkans, which could see some ESC countries as "no longer exists" or new ones for statistical purposes.

We cannot be sure that Bosnia and Herzegovina will remain stable, it could break up into two countries

If that happened between now and next year's ESC, the EBU will most likely regard Bosnia & Herzegovina as a country that no longer exists from next year onwards. If Bosnia and Herzegovina then send separate entries next year, they'll each begin their own new records; eurovision.tv History By Country page will in future have a page for Bosnia and a page for Herzegovina, with the exisitng B&H page "frozen in time" just like Serbia & Montenegro and Yugoslavia now.

Serbia could lose Vojvodina. Albania could claim Kosovo and parts of Macedonia. FYR Macedonia could get a new constitution and name, but could also vanish. What about statistics then?

If Albania claims Kosovo, and an artist from Kosovo enters a subsequent ESC, it'll go on the Albania history page. If Kosovo becomes officially recognised as an independent country, gets a EBU member brodcaster, it'll be a new country in the ESC, and get a new page Kosovo on the website.

So if we had East Germany in the contest, how would the statistics look then? So we would have statistics for each West and East Germany, and the 2010 victory would have been the first victory for Germany.

Possibility 1: West Germany and East Germany would have pages on the eurovisoin.tv site and be classed as no longer existent, Germany would have a separate page and list its entries 1991-present.
Possibility 2: West Germany page would now be titled Germany listing entries 1956 to present; the separate East Germany page would only list entries up to 1990, and now be a no-longer-existent country (whether or not it had any victories in the years it had participated up to 1990).

Another possibility is the UK. Currently UK entries represent Northern Ireland as well as England, Scotland and Wales; in fact a song writer, composer and singer could all come from Belfast to represent the UK and the entry would go on the history page for UK; if the UK wins the BBC could have the next year's ESC in Belfast. Suppose in a few years time Northern Ireland ceases to be part of the UK and becomes part of the Irish Republic; then it would be classed as part of Ireland for ESC purposes; if a singer, song writer and.or composer subsequently come from Belfast it would be an Ireland entry, put on the Ireland page and if it wins RTE could have the next ESC in Belfast.

Suppose next year England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland become eligible to send separate entries (just like the FIFA World Cup), they'll all be considered new countries and get separate pages for historical purposes; United Kingdom will be classed as having had 55 entries and 5 wins from 1957 to 2012.

There is always the possibility for change between countries. Obviously that creates problems for statistical purposes over the entire history of the ESC; sometimes it's easier to regard dismembered/merged territories as new countries with new statistical records than supersets / subsets of former countries.

 

[AdelAdel]

You have to bear in mind that Croatia didn't exist as a standalone nation when Riva won the 1989 ESC with "Rock Me". That song represented the whole of what was then SFR Yugoslavia, not just Croatia. Croatia first entered as an independent nation in 1993, therefore if they win next year 2013 the EBU will (almost certainly) regard that as their first ever win; the 1989 Yugoslavia win won't count.

Hey Nick, didn't I mention not to mix official statements with common sense? Of course, the official statetement would be that Croatia won for the first time in 2013, but DE FACTO it would be the second time. I'm sorry, but I doubt that Serbia, Macedonia, etc. are equally proud of the victory in 1989 as Croatia.

 

[rajo]

Croatia was not yet independent by 1989, but it was an constituent republic with an own TV station eligible to submit a song for Jugovizija.


Okay, next one:

Belgium gets represented by Wallonian TV the one year, and by the Flamish TV the other.

So, Belgium decides to split up, Wallonia goes to France, Flanders remains as Belgium. After a couple of years Belgium renames to Flanders.

What about the Belgian statistics from 1956 until the end of days?

 

[AdelAdel]

Croatia was not yet independent by 1989, but it was an constituent republic with an own TV station eligible to submit a song for Jugovizija.


Okay, next one:

Belgium gets represented by Wallonian TV the one year, and by the Flamish TV the other.

So, Belgium decides to split up, Wallonia goes to France, Flanders remains as Belgium. After a couple of years Belgium renames to Flanders.

What about the Belgian statistics from 1956 until the end of days?

Well, obviously the Dutch entries would go to Flanders and the French entries would go to France as double entries

 

[daniels1000]

I would suggest Croatia inherits the victory of Yugoslavia in 1989....

I agree with you

I think that that song was Croatian , and because of that , we can say that Croatia had one victory,but we're still waiting for real victory under name Croatia

 

[NemesisNick]

I think that that song was Croatian , and because of that , we can say that Croatia had one victory,but we're still waiting for real victory under name Croatia

Well said.

We've just got to accept that:
1) Certain years between 1961 and 1992 Croatia participated in the ESC as part of SFR Yugoslavia, and won as part of SFR Yugoslavia in 1989, but those entries represented the whole of SFR Yugoslavia (not just Croatia), as Croatia didn't exist as a standalone nation then.
2) Croatia first entered as Croatia (independent nation) in 1993; from that year onwards its entries just represented Croatia, and we are still waiting for Croatia to get its first victory as Croatia (independent nation).

Perhaps it's best to leave this debate at that, at least on this thread anyway. If we want to continue it, it's best if a new separate thread is started to discuss this matter of countries amalgamating / splitting up and how it affects ESC stats. This thread is really to discuss countries that have never won the ESC, let's move on to some of the others I've mentioned besides Croatia.

Incidentally, being as Jugovizija 1992 had Bosnia & Herzegovina entries in, what would have happened if a Bosnia & Herzegovina entry had won Jugovizija 1992 (instead of Serbian artist Extra Nena) and become the contestant to represent Yugoslavia in May 1992. With Bosnia & Herzegovina broken away by then, and SFR Yugoslavia reconstituted as FR Yugoslavia by the end of April 1992, would that entry have still gone into ESC 1992. If so what name - Bosnia & Herzegovina (their debut entry) or Yugoslavia?

 

[AdelAdel]

Well, we are discussing countries, that never won, and you're still refusing to reply to my comments.

 

[sannerz]

I STRONGLY disagree with saying that Riva's victory in 1989 belongs to Croatia.
Like it or not, back then the country that Riva represented was YUGOSLAVIA not Croatia. It might have represented the republic of Croatia in the Yugoslav nation, but to Yugoslavs back then, it represented all of Yugoslavia, as it was voted to represented all of Yugoslavia in Jugovizija by all the different republics or states that made up Yugoslavia.
Yugoslavia won back then. That should be kept that way.

Also, I saw some people saying that Bosnia and Herzegovina might break up into Bosnia and Herzegovina?
Before starting talking crap about our ex-Yu countries educate yourself on some of the stuff that's going on in the region. The only way Bosnia and Herzegovina will split up is if the Serb Republic in Bosnia and Herzegovina splits apart, but Herzegovina has no intention of splitting. To mention Herzegovina splitting is just laughable.

 

[AdelAdel]

So who inherits, in your opinion, the 1989 victory? No one? Or all the ex-yu countries?

 

[rajo]

The country has not vanished, neither have the artists. There is no big hole where once was Croatia, there is still Croatia.

And Croatia earned the victory in 1989 (as part of Yugoslavia), and the independent Croatia of 2012 shall still be proud of it.

 

[sannerz]

The whole of Yugoslavia was proud of it, not just Croatia when it won.

The victory belongs to Yugoslavia as a whole, as it earned the victory not just Croatia.

No country "inherits" a victory that happened 23 years ago. You're just asking for trouble.

 

[AdelAdel]

So, according to your logic, Russia does not inherit USSRs successes in many sporting events? Go to Russia and ask a Russian who hosted the 1980 Olympics, or which country can be proud of Garry Kasparov.

 

[LakZaNokte]

oh wow, so many things said here, wrong and right...
since I'm too lazy to reply to them I'll go straight to the point:
I don't see 1989. as croatian victory and I don't think many people here see it that way either. yes, it was croatian song, in croatian language and croatian performer but....
if, for example, slovenian entry won as a part of Yugoslavia, I wouldn't see that as slovenian victory either.
anyways, it's a heavy topic, I suggest leaving it alone

 

[sannerz]

oh wow, so many things said here, wrong and right...
since I'm too lazy to reply to them I'll go straight to the point:
I don't see 1989. as croatian victory and I don't think many people here see it that way either. yes, it was croatian song, in croatian language and croatian performer but....
if, for example, slovenian entry won as a part of Yugoslavia, I wouldn't see that as slovenian victory either.
anyways, it's a heavy topic, I suggest leaving it alone

I'm just gonna quote this post BY A CROATIAN to show you that we from the ex-Yu region don't feel that same way.
It WAS a Croatian song, but it represented all of Yugoslavia, and made all of Yugoslavia proud not just Croatia.