Countries of 2016

[MyHeartIsYours]

Ok, let's say Armenia (atleast it's next to Europe unlike Australia).

Canada never participated in Eurovision Song Contest and we are discussing this contest not some flop contests no one really care about.

And you are to decide what is European and not? With your logic all former colonies of every European should take part, atleast the ones that are still "European" enough but then again does European in your opinion mean only "Western/Anglo-Saxic"? Because as far as Hispanic culture goes (= European) then we should allow whole Latin America aswell... in the end we would have a difficult time because someone should have to measure how "European" a country can be considered, and again Europe is not just Western Europe or the Anglo-Saxic culture.

Being "next to Europe" means little to me, the Islamic State is also next to Europe... but anyway turns out I got that one wrong as EscGeek points out, though I was sure that they participated before joining, but anyway.

Canada participated in Eurovision Young Dancers. The precedence was set for such participation in a Eurovision contest.

Latin America is very unlike Spain and Portugal these days. There are linguistic connections, but that is as far as it goes. Brazil's similarity to Portugal is about the same as Jamaica's to Britain - and I'm hardly advocating Jamaica joining ESC. Whereas Anglophone Canada, the United States, Australia and New Zealand are very similar and in many ways identical to Britain and Ireland, and Quebec the same for France. Their native populations and cultures are largely extinct, and they now have population and/or cultural base of England and France. Armenia gets through from being a Russian offshoot, why shouldn't the offshoots of Western European join?

 

[A-lister]

Being "next to Europe" means little to me, the Islamic State is also next to Europe... but anyway turns out I got that one wrong as EscGeek points out, though I was sure that they participated before joining, but anyway.

Canada participated in Eurovision Young Dancers. The precedence was set for such participation in a Eurovision contest.

Latin America is very unlike Spain and Portugal these days. There are linguistic connections, but that is as far as it goes. Brazil's similarity to Portugal is about the same as Jamaica's to Britain - and I'm hardly advocating Jamaica joining ESC. Whereas Anglophone Canada, the United States, Australia and New Zealand are very similar and in many ways identical to Britain and Ireland, and Quebec the same for France. Their native populations and cultures are largely extinct, and they now have population and/or cultural base of England and France. Armenia gets through from being a Russian offshoot, why shouldn't the offshoots of Western European join?

Islamic State? Huh? Do you refer to Iran? (Because it's not a neighbor to Europe), nor is this IS (which is not a recognized state anyways) plus as it turned out your comment was based on incorrect "facts", and Armenia is an EBU member, Australia is not even that Azerbaijan is geographically part of Europe, we can't really change those facts either.

I wouldn't use a one-time Canada back in the 1980's in a contest no one really bothers about as an argument for allowing (and breaking current rules and requirements) Australia in Eurovision

Armenia arguable belongs to the countries labeled as "cradle of European culture" together with Greece and Italy, it's always been associated with Europe (being part of Soviet Union aswell) and never really Asia. It's together with Georgia the oldest, still existing, Christian nation-state aswell the first Indo-European country. If your argument is based solely on connection to European culture, there should be no doubt that they should be in.

By your measurement, Argentina atleast should be in Eurovision then as it's the most "Spanish" and European out of all the Latin-American countries with very limited influx of non-European elements.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

You know very well what I mean with that, plus as it turned out your comment was based on incorrect "facts", and Armenia is an EBU member, Australia is not even that Azerbaijan is geographically part of Europe, we can't really change those facts either.

I wouldn't use a one-time Canada back in the 1980's in a contest no one really bothers about as an argument for allowing (and breaking current rules and requirements) Australia in Eurovision

Armenia arguable belongs to the countries labeled as "cradle of European culture" together with Greece and Italy, it's always been associated with Europe (being part of Soviet Union aswell) and never really Asia. It's together with Georgia the oldest, still existing, Christian nation-state aswell as the first Indo-European population. If your argument is based solely on connection to European culture, there should be no doubt that they should be in.

By your measurement, Argentina atleast should be in Eurovision then as it's the most "Spanish" and European out of all the Latin-American countries with very limited influx of non-European elements.

I don't know what you mean because as I said the Islamic State is far closer to me geographically than Armenia! Scary I know, but true.

Well it is, because the Eurovision "network" covers a certain range. Canada is outside that range and was allowed participation, why shouldn't the same be allowed for Australia? And you're forgetting that Australia was allowed to participate last year, and it worked very well and was even successful - the EBU always said that they would look at it as a trial. The trial has been had, and everything went to plan, so what possible reason could be given for now ejecting them from the Contest??

Armenia is "European" through its Russian links and history. Cyprus is "European" through its Greek links and history. I am prepared to accept them, the rest of Europe should be prepared to accept new members who are "European" through their links and history with Britain and France. Otherwise it seems all a bit anti-Western to me. Any bugger can join if their of an Eastern culture, but oh no you can't if you're Western.

You're right, if more evidence is presented and they wanted to join, Argentina could perhaps be considered, but they would be the only one from Latin America (you know I'm hardly a fan of Argentina - so clearly I am pure in my motives ).

 

[Sabiondo]

By your measurement, Argentina atleast should be in Eurovision then as it's the most "Spanish" and European out of all the Latin-American countries with very limited influx of non-European elements.

Not only Argentina is the most Hispanic country in Latin America Uruguay, Colombia, Puerto Rico and Mexico not are far Behind, but they had a better music scene than one's

In fact almost all the Latin American countries could join in ESC in the future if we want do it. We have more reasons and earliest broadcast time than the one, but the problem will come with the racism and acceptation of certain European countries about Latin American music

 

[A-lister]

I don't know what you mean because as I said the Islamic State is far closer to me geographically than Armenia! Scary I know, but true.

Well it is, because the Eurovision "network" covers a certain range. Canada is outside that range and was allowed participation, why shouldn't the same be allowed for Australia? And you're forgetting that Australia was allowed to participate last year, and it worked very well and was even successful - the EBU always said that they would look at it as a trial. The trial has been had, and everything went to plan, so what possible reason could be given for now ejecting them from the Contest??

Armenia is "European" through its Russian links and history. Cyprus is "European" through its Greek links and history. I am prepared to accept them, the rest of Europe should be prepared to accept new members who are "European" through their links and history with Britain and France. Otherwise it seems all a bit anti-Western to me. Any bugger can join if their of an Eastern culture, but oh no you can't if you're Western.

You're right, if more evidence is presented and they wanted to join, Argentina could perhaps be considered, but they would be the only one from Latin America (you know I'm hardly a fan of Argentina - so clearly I am pure in my motives ).

Armenia is a direct neighbor to countries that are atleast partly European, IS is not, that's what I meant with "close to". IS unfortunately (and ironically) is part of the EBU broadcasting area though (which is another proof to as why this current rule/requirement is crazy/irrational to begin with and should be changed).

It wasn't a trial, EBU said it was a one-time off anniversary thing. Yes it went well, it was an anniversary thingy, let's keep it as it was meant to be shall we?

Armenia goes way back than just being a part of Soviet Union, which is something I pointed out even. If you think Armenia's link to Europe starts with Russia/Soviet then you are historically incorrect.

Australia is not even in the range of Europe, nor is Canada, USA, New Zeeland or Argentina. Eurovision is about Europe, not about political or cultural connections. There are rules and requirements (being an EBU member, broadcasting area), Australia is not the former and not even close to the latter. Why is being opposed to non-European expansion of ESC so hard to gasp? Especially when it comes to countries that are as far as possible from Europe to begin with?

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Not only Argentina is the most Hispanic country in Latin America Uruguay, Colombia, Puerto Rico and Mexico not are far Behind, but they had a better music scene than g one's

In fact almost all the Latin American countries could join in ESC in the future if we want do it. We have more reasons and earliest time than the one, but the problem will come with the racism and acceptation of certain European countries about Latin America music

Puerto Rico would participate as part of the United States.

If you look at the stats, Argentina and Uruguay are the only Latin American nations with a convincing case for joining a European contest - 85% and 88% of their people are of European origin. The next highest is Brazil, at 54% - not a convincing case in my book.

It seems sensible to me that the following countries be allowed to join Eurovision:
95%+ European population
70% European population
85% European population
::uy 88% European population
95%+ European population
70% European population

I think it would seem to anybody that these countries have a special case to join. It's hardly like we'd be accepting just anybody...

 

[A-lister]

^
They are still not European though (as defined by geography) and if we are to pick countries based on culture/ethnicity/origin then in some decade/s from now we would even have to kick out some countries from the actual European continent because as things are going they might not even be "European" in that sense any longer (my country being one of those)

 

[Charly]

So the suspected 41 Country could be

Bosnia & H
Croatia
Morocco

I don't think it will be Australia but there is a rumor of Croatia returning with The Voice winner , Bosnia is losing 200K a month so that is unlikely and for Morocco, SNRT is being awfully quiet

 

[tuorem]

Australia is not even in the range of Europe, nor is Canada, USA, New Zeeland or Argentina. Eurovision is about Europe, not about political or cultural connections. There are rules and requirements (being an EBU member, broadcasting area), Australia is not the former and not even close to the latter. Why is being opposed to non-European expansion of ESC so hard to gasp? Especially when it comes to countries that are as far as possible from Europe to begin with?

I think these lines sum up the subject pretty well. With some knowledge in geographics and logic, one can easily understand why a permanent participation of Australia is nonsense. Again, I don't have anything against Aussies, but if they're allowed to stay, then let's carry on with this new standard by accepting any country of the world that's willing to enter.

What I find hard to understand is defending Australia while rejecting other countries that have pretty much the same status with respect to Europe. Consistency says: That's no one or everyone.

 

[A-lister]

I think these lines sum up the subject pretty well. With some knowledge in geographics and logic, one can easily understand why a permanent participation of Australia is nonsense. Again, I don't have anything against Aussies, but if they're allowed to stay, then let's carry on with this new standard by accepting any country of the world that's willing to enter.

What I find hard to understand is defending Australia while rejecting other countries that have pretty much the same status with respect to Europe. Consistency says: That's no one or everyone.

Exactly! Lots of hypocrisy in all of this tbh.

I have absolutely nothing against Australia or Aussies, in fact I really want to go there and have alot of respect for this country, but that is not correlated to ESC though.

 

[Franco]

then we should allow whole Latin America aswell

We definitely should.

 

[blue00eyes]

Let's open the threads for Bolivia, Peru, Venezuela, Chile, Paraguay, Equador and so on!

 

[Gera11]

If it's not Kazakhstan and it's Australia again I will be mad :/

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Armenia is a direct neighbor to countries that are atleast partly European, IS is not, that's what I meant with "close to". IS unfortunately (and ironically) is part of the EBU broadcasting area though (which is another proof to as why this current rule/requirement is crazy/irrational to begin with and should be changed).

It wasn't a trial, EBU said it was a one-time off anniversary thing. Yes it went well, it was an anniversary thingy, let's keep it as it was meant to be shall we?

Armenia goes way back than just being a part of Soviet Union, which is something I pointed out even. If you think Armenia's link to Europe starts with Russia/Soviet then you are historically incorrect.

Australia is not even in the range of Europe, nor is Canada, USA, New Zeeland or Argentina. Eurovision is about Europe, not about political or cultural connections. There are rules and requirements (being an EBU member, broadcasting area), Australia is not the former and not even close to the latter. Why is being opposed to non-European expansion of ESC so hard to gasp? Especially when it comes to countries that are as far as possible from Europe to begin with?

Islamic State is a direct neighbour to Turkey, which is partly European

Geographic location is not a case for Cyprus, Armenia nor Israel to participate. Their geographic locations indicate that they should not participate. But they are allowed because they have still strong cultural links with Europe (although, if you take the case of Armenia and Israel for instance, their populaces and cultures are far less "European" than Canada and Australia).

EBU said that this year was a surprise for the Contest's birthday, but they also said that they would be carefully analysing Australia's participation and would decide about future editions after they saw how well this year went. Clearly they, and many fans too, believe that Australia's participation was a great success, they put far more effort into the Contest than many European countries, and the timezone/voting issue proved no problem at all. There simply isn't a case for blocking them from future editions.

Armenia may have historical links with Europe, but I'm talking about current links that are relevant and without any doubt here in 2015. Armenia's fits into this category merely through its links with Russia and other former Soviet states. Palestine occupies the site of the birthplace of Christianity, and hence Western civilisation - should we also support their entry into Eurovision? I certainly won't.

In your last paragraph you say "not about political or cultural connections", yet in the one previous you were saying Armenia has the right to participate because of its historical cultural connections with Europe before the Soviets or Russians came?? The EBU writes the rules of the Contest, and there is nothing that says that rules have to stay the same forever. Clearly the EBU agrees that it is now time for the rules to change, just as they have changed many times in the Contest's history. If Eurovision didn't change and adapt, there's no way it'd still be going after 60 years.

^
They are still not European though (as defined by geography) and if we are to pick countries based on culture/ethnicity/origin then in some decade/s from now we would even have to kick out some countries from the actual European continent because as things are going they might not even be "European" in that sense any longer (my country being one of those)

Nor are Armenia, Cyprus and Israel. And your last point is a very good one - some of these countries I favour joining are more European than European countries.
90% of people in Australia are of British ancestry. 90% of people in the United Kingdom are of British ancestry.
90% of people in Quebec are of French ancestry. 89% of people in France are of French ancestry.

I see little reason how you can have what is supposed to be a European cultural competition, and block more European states from participating while allowing less European states into the contest. Unless of course you use the "geographic" argument, which is no longer valid ever since Israel, Cyprus, Armenia and Morocco joined the Contest.

What I find hard to understand is defending Australia while rejecting other countries that have pretty much the same status with respect to Europe. Consistency says: That's no one or everyone.

Who's saying that?

 

[SpZ]

Islamic State is a direct neighbour to Turkey, which is partly European

Geographic location is not a case for Cyprus, Armenia nor Israel to participate. Their geographic locations indicate that they should not participate. But they are allowed because they have still strong cultural links with Europe (although, if you take the case of Armenia and Israel for instance, their populaces and cultures are far less "European" than Canada and Australia).

Well you are here claiming that they are allowed in due to cultural links instead of geography. Well that is false. They are let in due to geographic location (and here it is not even about being in Europe, but being geographically inside the EBU broadcasting area)

EBU said that this year was a surprise for the Contest's birthday, but they also said that they would be carefully analysing Australia's participation and would decide about future editions after they saw how well this year went. Clearly they, and many fans too, believe that Australia's participation was a great success, they put far more effort into the Contest than many European countries, and the timezone/voting issue proved no problem at all. There simply isn't a case for blocking them from future editions.

Well I agree that it went ok and I do admit that because EBU broadcasting area is well something the union has agreed on, they can also agree to extend the area or lose the requirement. However, what I can't accept is singling out countries based on arbitrary criteria (eg Australia). It is not like EBU should have the option to handpick countries outside of Europe any more than picking countries inside Europe. Would it be ok for you if EBU for whatever reason tells Bosnia, Andorra or the UK that they are not invited to join because of blablablah random reason?. That is for me both 1) letting only EBU broadcast area countries inside 2) letting anyone at all from australia to zimbabwe in would be ok. I'd probably even support option 2.

Armenia may have historical links with Europe, but I'm talking about current links that are relevant and without any doubt here in 2015. Armenia's fits into this category merely through its links with Russia and other former Soviet states. Palestine occupies the site of the birthplace of Christianity, and hence Western civilisation - should we also support their entry into Eurovision? I certainly won't.

Well I find it rather amusing that you claim that Armenia does not have cultural links to Europe without Russia/Soviet Union in the present day. If you are lazy and care not to look into the issue in depth you can even look at the diaspora numbers. And about Palestine entering ESC - I'd be happy about it (there would be the issue of statehood to solve beforehand though)

The EBU writes the rules of the Contest, and there is nothing that says that rules have to stay the same forever. Clearly the EBU agrees that it is now time for the rules to change, just as they have changed many times in the Contest's history. If Eurovision didn't change and adapt, there's no way it'd still be going after 60 years.

Rule changes are cool. However like in legal systems, the principles of universality should be applied. Eg one can not do a rule about Australia specifically being allowed to join.


TBH your whole Europeaness arguement also stinks of cultural imperialism and defining European as Western European/British.

 

[GermanBango]

I shouldn't have asked

 

[Sabiondo]

Puerto Rico would participate as part of the United States.

If you look at the stats, Argentina and Uruguay are the only Latin American nations with a convincing case for joining a European contest - 85% and 88% of their people are of European origin. The next highest is Brazil, at 54% - not a convincing case in my book.

It seems sensible to me that the following countries be allowed to join Eurovision:
95%+ European population
70% European population
85% European population
::uy 88% European population
95%+ European population
70% European population

I think it would seem to anybody that these countries have a special case to join. It's hardly like we'd be accepting just anybody...

This is the most ridiculous argument ever!! What has to do the European population in non European countries with Eurovision? :?

 

[eerik]

Oh, wow. It's November and people are still crying over Australia's participation.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

This is the most ridiculous argument ever!! What has to do the European population in non European countries with Eurovision? :?

Because they're European, duh...

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Well you are here claiming that they are allowed in due to cultural links instead of geography. Well that is false. They are let in due to geographic location (and here it is not even about being in Europe, but being geographically inside the EBU broadcasting area)

Okay, so you're arguing based on EBU rules? Well EBU allow Australian participation, because they participated last year

Well I agree that it went ok and I do admit that because EBU broadcasting area is well something the union has agreed on, they can also agree to extend the area or lose the requirement. However, what I can't accept is singling out countries based on arbitrary criteria (eg Australia). It is not like EBU should have the option to handpick countries outside of Europe any more than picking countries inside Europe. Would it be ok for you if EBU for whatever reason tells Bosnia, Andorra or the UK that they are not invited to join because of blablablah random reason?. That is for me both 1) letting only EBU broadcast area countries inside 2) letting anyone at all from australia to zimbabwe in would be ok. I'd probably even support option 2.

No that wouldn't be acceptable, unless of course they had broken rules in previous editions. Point is though that nobody's advocating Australian participation at the expense of anybody else, only arguing for it to be in addition to...

Zimbabwe would be unacceptable because it is geographically AND culturally outside of Europe. My belief is that if a country is geographically OR culturally European, it should be able to join Eurovision, so long as it has an EBU or EBU associate broadcaster of course. I think this is consistent with the way the rules have been applied in the past, and it is the way in which the rules should be applied in future.

Well I find it rather amusing that you claim that Armenia does not have cultural links to Europe without Russia/Soviet Union in the present day. If you are lazy and care not to look into the issue in depth you can even look at the diaspora numbers. And about Palestine entering ESC - I'd be happy about it (there would be the issue of statehood to solve beforehand though)

Armenia is far more Asian than European. The reason it is in Eurovision is because of its links to Europe via Russia. It is not geographically European, and far less culturally European than Australia. Yes it falls within the EBU area, but as I said, given the way the rules have been applied in the past, this is a very loosely enforced rule anyway, and one that can be updated.

Rule changes are cool. However like in legal systems, the principles of universality should be applied. Eg one can not do a rule about Australia specifically being allowed to join.

I never said it should just be for Eurovision. I said that it should be extended to all countries that fit the same criteria: Canada/United States/Uruguay/Argentina/Australia/New Zealand. I don't have any desire to see Argentina on the Eurovision stage, but as I want Australia etc there, in the interests of fairness then I think they have a justified case to be there too, if they want to be (which I don't think they do).

TBH your whole Europeaness arguement also stinks of cultural imperialism and defining European as Western European/British.

Yesterday you preaching we should have more respect for people having different views, then you come up with this falsity?? I've explained why I believe they should join, and one minute you're accusing me of being "imperialist" for wanting the likes of NZ to keep ties with us, then when I want them to stand on their own and join an international contest independently instead of watching via BBC, you accuse me of being "imperialist" too! Make up your mind!!