Which country's song should not win ESC 2018?

[Chorizo]

I voted against:
If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.

Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning.

 

[Chorizo]

Occidentali’s Karma and Israel 2018 are certainly two different songs. Israel 2018 is about body positivity and calling out immature behavior of men, Italy 2017 was a critique of western culture and ignorance-fueled pretentiousness. Italy was lost in translation (the gorilla came off as a gimmick and not the illustrative point it was supposed to serve). Israel is in clear English. I’m still trying to fully take in Israel’s entry this year, and I think seeing it live will make or break it.

And I think that applies to so many entries this year. With no clear favorite outside of the virality of Israel, this probably be the first Eurovision in over half a decade where we truly won’t have and idea until after semi 1 and/or 2. The only other year I can remember where this was remotely the case was Conchita after the semi performance in 2014.

The Eurovision audience isn’t against joke entries forever, and I think one can win eventually, but smart staging now plays a much larger role in recent years.

Clear English and bucka bucka chicken sounds.

 

[A-lister]

Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning.

See this is the problem with this antisemitic hypocrite BS movement, it explicitly singles out and targets Israel while turning the blind out to (and even openly supports) Sharia ruled terrorist states, they also completely ignore communist dictatorships like Venezuela, North Korea and Cuba and other states' violations against human rights and international laws like Russia's and China's for instance, because that would take away the focus from Israel and would quickly show how unproportional and crazy this whole focus is. Antisemitism is so 1940's and most westerners in this movement doesn't seem to grasp that they are just being used as useful idiots by fundamentalists that want to basically see Jews being slaughtered and disappear from the face of the earth. It's sad to see antisemitism alive and kicking in this forum, but I'm not surprised unfortunately.

 

[mauve]

See this is the problem with this antisemitic hypocrite BS movement, it explicitly singles out and targets Israel while turning the blind out to (and even openly supports) Sharia ruled terrorist states, it also completely ignores communist dictatorships like Venezuela, North Korea and China and other states' violations against human rights and international laws like Russia's for instance, because that would take away the focus on Israel and would quickly show how unproportional and crazy this whole focus is. Antisemitism is so 1940's and most westerners in this movement doesn't seem to grasp that they are just being used as useful idiots by fundamentalists that want to basically see Jews being slaughtered and disappear from the face of the earth. It's sad to see antisemitism alive and kicking in this forum, but I'm not surprised unfortunately.

Don't want to get too political, but there is still a difference between antisemitism and antiisraelism. I am no antisemitist, but I really am against the politics that Israel does. Just because they were sacrifice in a really dark age shouldn't be a justification of their garbage politics.

 

[A-lister]

Don't want to get too political, but there is still a difference between antisemitism and antiisraelism. I am no antisemitist, but I really am against the politics that Israel does. Just because they were sacrifice in a really dark age shouldn't be a justification of their garbage politics.

There is a correlation between antisemitism and antiisraelism (btw "antiisraelism" as you call it is clearly against a whole country, not just about the politics of it), but I will not go into some stretched out political discussion about it, I was just originally commenting a post that targeted out Israel in here.

When people put all their focus on the only small Jewish land that exist on this earth, while putting the blind eye to far worse examples and even stand side by side with Hamas and Iran, then this is no longer about being against some policies of a country, then this is disguised antisemitism. You can be against the politics of a country, but when you make a comment that you'd support an entry by "any other country" (when you have such violators as Russia in the contest for instance), then this is no longer about the politics about the country, then this is something far more disturbing.

 

[mauve]

There is a correlation between antisemitism and antiisraelism (btw "antiisraelism" as you call it is clearly against a whole country, not just about the politics of it), but I will not go into some stretched out political discussion about it, I was just originally commenting a post that targeted out Israel in here.

When people put all their focus on the only small Jewish land that exist on this earth, while putting the blind eye to far worse examples and even stand side by side with Hamas and Iran, then this is no longer about being against some policies of a country, then this is disguised antisemitism. You can be against the politics of a country, but when you make a comment that you'd support an entry by "any other country" (when you have such violators as Russia in the contest for instance), then this is no longer about the politics about the country, then this is something far more disturbing.

I agree with you about what you said. Right now there are so many countries going the wrong way. And actually, ESC shouldn't be about politics, Music should be just music with politics in the background. But unfortunately, often it isn't so. :?

 

[anto475]

Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning.

The only reason I didn't vote against Russia is because I don't think Russia has a chance at winning. Toy is a fantastic song, Flame Is Burning, Second Edition, is not.

 

[A-lister]

The only reason I didn't vote against Russia is because I don't think Russia has a chance at winning. Toy is a fantastic song, Flame Is Burning, Second Edition, is not.

How about a reminder of your own words?

If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.

Now I know only one way to read that sentence, and it's that every other country, including countries that are ranked as "authoritarian" by Economist Intelligence Unit (such as Russia, Belarus and Azerbaijan) and are ranked far lower than Israel in all other aspects (human rights, gender equality, LGBT rights, corruption etc.) would still be ok winners in your opinion? Also, maybe it doesn't interest you, but Israel is even ranked above 21 other ESC countries when it comes to democracy (including Belgium, Czech Rep. and Cyprus amongst others), and together with Estonia, France, Portugal and Italy, it is labeled as "flawed democracy" (only 14 ESC countries are ranked as "Full democracies", which leaves nearly 30 countries as either flawed or worse). When it comes to UN's "Gender inequality index", Israel is ranked above 30 other ESC countries, and let's not even start on LGBT rights where Israel is a diamond in a dark sea in its region, but even here they are ranked above many of the other ESC countries aswell.

So by all means, continue bash, but please look into facts first...

 

[Bibha]

This one vote for a winner to not come from the above 18 entices me

 

[anto475]

How about a reminder of your own words?



Now I know only one way to read that sentence, and it's that every other country, including countries that are ranked as "authoritarian" by Economist Intelligence Unit (such as Russia, Belarus and Azerbaijan) and are ranked far lower than Israel in all other aspects (human rights, gender equality, LGBT rights, corruption etc.) would still be ok winners in your opinion? Also, maybe it doesn't interest you, but Israel is even ranked above 21 other ESC countries when it comes to democracy (including Belgium, Czech Rep. and Cyprus amongst others), and together with Estonia, France, Portugal and Italy, it is labeled as "flawed democracy" (only 14 ESC countries are ranked as "Full democracies", which leaves nearly 30 countries as either flawed or worse). When it comes to UN's "Gender inequality index", Israel is ranked above 30 other ESC countries, and let's not even start on LGBT rights where Israel is a diamond in a dark sea in its region, but even here they are ranked above many of the other ESC countries aswell.

So by all means, continue bash, but please look into facts first...

Apologies apologies, I didn't take into account every other country on that list and made a rash statement in what I thought was a casual forum, I am so so sorry. Let me rephrase.
If any other country, apart from Belarus or Russia or Azerbaijan sent it I would love to see it win. I never said Israel wasn't democratic so I don't know why you're bringing that in, nor did I say that Israel was a sexist state or a homophobic state. And how bloody dare you accuse me of being antisemitic. I am not in the least antisemitic, and antizionism does not equate with antisemitism. I'm studying Judaism and Jewish culture/history as part of my degree and I have absolutely nothing but respect and reverence for Judaism and Jews worldwide, so please don't slander me like that again.

It is incredibly well known that Israel engages in countless cases of human rights abuses, both in Gaza and the West Bank, and even within its own borders to the members of Beta Israel. Why do you think the Gaza Strip is known as the world's largest outdoor prison? Why do you think Ethiopian Jews are threatening hunger strikes in protest of Israel's actions towards them? On top of this, Israeli pinkwashing is widespread across the board, from simple tourism to pornography and even to the Eurovision (the Israel Calling party). Hosting the Eurovision, now largely seen as a gay event, would give them a platform to paint themselves as a haven for LGBT people in the region and shove aside the negative actions they carry out on a daily basis on their non-white-Jewish population.

On a side note, I'm not going to reply to any of your messages because you've demonstrated in the past that it's nearly impossible to reach a logical and peaceful end of a debate with you. Further, this isn't the proper thread for a political debate.

 

[LalehForWD]

It is, of course, honest to admit purely political reasons why some countries are considered disqualified. It is another thing altogether to logically argue for such treatment in a fair way. It is simply impossible without demanding a formal ban from the EBU. Still, I think and we all know, politics do play a considerable role in Eurovision voting.

And no, it is not antisemitism to criticise Israel. It is a cynical abuse of the holocaust to claim Carte blanche and playing the victim role for the violations of international law that Israel is executing. This argument is also almost exclusively expressed by the authoritarian far right/ultra-nationalists.

Personally, I don't think Israel should be banned from Eurovision - therefore I fully support the possibility of an Israel win.

edit:
But then by saying this, and at second thought, I kind of reject the whole idea behind the thread

 

[A-lister]

Apologies apologies, I didn't take into account every other country on that list and made a rash statement in what I thought was a casual forum, I am so so sorry. Let me rephrase.
If any other country, apart from Belarus or Russia or Azerbaijan sent it I would love to see it win. I never said Israel wasn't democratic so I don't know why you're bringing that in, nor did I say that Israel was a sexist state or a homophobic state. And how bloody dare you accuse me of being antisemitic. I am not in the least antisemitic, and antizionism does not equate with antisemitism. I'm studying Judaism and Jewish culture/history as part of my degree and I have absolutely nothing but respect and reverence for Judaism and Jews worldwide, so please don't slander me like that again.

It is incredibly well known that Israel engages in countless cases of human rights abuses, both in Gaza and the West Bank, and even within its own borders to the members of Beta Israel. Why do you think the Gaza Strip is known as the world's largest outdoor prison? Why do you think Ethiopian Jews are threatening hunger strikes in protest of Israel's actions towards them? On top of this, Israeli pinkwashing is widespread across the board, from simple tourism to pornography and even to the Eurovision (the Israel Calling party). Hosting the Eurovision, now largely seen as a gay event, would give them a platform to paint themselves as a haven for LGBT people in the region and shove aside the negative actions they carry out on a daily basis on their non-white-Jewish population.

On a side note, I'm not going to reply to any of your messages because you've demonstrated in the past that it's nearly impossible to reach a logical and peaceful end of a debate with you. Further, this isn't the proper thread for a political debate.

No need for a sarcastic apology really, and if you don't want to reply that's fine, but if you write a comment like you did you could expect that someone would reply to it, now that someone happened to be me but could have very well been another person (for your information we have Jewish and Israeli members on this forum as well).

Now, I'm not sure what your intentions were with your comment, but what said was said and I reacted to the initial comment of yours (not your adjusted version here). I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I came on too harsh and I hope you don't have the wrong intentions (although from your original comment it didn't look too good).

Now many people don't agree with me on issues here, it's fine, but when arguing for something I like to do it based on atleast some facts, I see you ignored statistics I provided to you from various respected sources. Now I'm not sure what you mean with "pinkwashing", but the fact that Israel is a democratic state that is far more progressive than many other ESC countries is something you can't ignore, that's not "pinkwashing", it's reality.

I agree with you that this shouldn't be a political thread (however you started it with your initial comment), but if you are so concerned with human rights etc., maybe before solely targeting Israel and victimizing their enemies surrounding them, you should take a look at the bigger picture, because for someone apparently being concerned with human rights, you seem not concerned at all with the fact that in Gaza it's death penalty for being gay for instance, and that Palestine rather see Israel disappear from the face of the earth than coming to any peace agreement... but yeah that would kill the narrative that Israel is somehow sole responsible for this conflict.

I'm not trying to advocate for and say that all that Israel does is right, because there are many things I disagree with in their policies as well, but I know that the Hamas/Iran narrative is based solely on anti-semitism, and solely targeting out Israel as a "bad guy", unwilling to see other sides, is basically playing to that narrative.

 

[Bibha]

Well the question was on song!
If people don't like the country they should petition for the contest to be hosted in another country!
But penalizing and mocking the worth of the entire contest by making it all about the country irrespective of the quality of song they send is not right!!

 

[Bibha]

After watching the live performances in Moscow I think there is no way Azerbaijan and Russia can contend for a win. It'll be a miracle if they qualify now.

 

[Bibha]

One week left to vote and it'd seem that France has the least divisive song!