Juries- keep'em or trash'em?

[AlekS]

It is not condemnable to have another taste than 'the majority' (in fact, the 'majitorian taste' itself is just a compomise of pluralistic opinions... the very fewest come even close to agree on all places) but to say 'my taste is more relevant the one of thousands or million others and thus I just oppress the domocratic outcome'. Unlike in e.g. Melodifestivalen where they at least have the spark of decency to show how the people voted.

And again fail.
According to your logic we should prohibit/change televoting because Andorra's or Sammarenese votes are relevant to millions of others.

ps. and MF obviously isn't equal to 42 countries combined.

 

[doctormalisimo]

I would consider a 5 place difference to be rather substantial - 10th place and 15th place, they're very different. And this year is the first year that the winner has differed, personally I would have preferred Sweden to win but why is it fair that Italy came second overall despite coming first in the Jury vote with a massive points lead over second place whilst Azerbaijan only managed to win the Televote by 3 points ahead of Sweden? This proves the problem for me. It leads to countries succeeding who are only average in both votes, and countries who have an overwhelming endorsement from one vote but not the other, are neglected.

No one who was rated averagely by both sides had success :?
All of the top 5 came in the top 4 of at least one side...
Only 2 top 10 countries failed to make the televote's top 10 and only 3 (different) countries failed to make the juries top 10. It's not like any country that came 15th in both ended up coming 5th.
As for countries who did well with one side and not the other, these ended up in average mid-table positions. Again, it's not as if one country came 2nd in the televote but ended up coming 20th overall...
And I dont consider 5 places a big difference. Given that there's 25 countries, 5 places in only 20% of the field.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

@Aleks

And I'll repeat again. Any real objective reason for this? Except someone's subjective taste. Why should the voting be like you or somebody else says? It's only up to EBU to decide
Televoters shouldn't intrude into jury's voting and vice versa.
If the juries think differently than televoters let it be so.

Because of the reason that I have stated in my reply to doctormalismo. It is up to the EBU to decide, but I hope they make the fair decision and change the voting. From what I've seen, there's many more people wanting a change than wanting to keep it the same.

THE SAME?! The rules used to change every year. And if "consequences" mean that the entry which you hate or geographical area which you hate (I think we've already found out which one) takes high positions - it's not consequences, it's your subjective taste and inability to accept other televoters' taste You label majority of them in neighbour voting without having any proofs. Like voting for my neighbour entry is a crime

Yes, the Eastern European hater who has voted for Russia . The whole bloc voting issue is something different than this issue, and it is an issue that I have discussed before so Im not going into it again. I will say though, that the issue must also be dealt with whenever the EBU decides to reform.

Whatever you think doesn't change the fact that we judge multiply performances. If performers record their back-up videos on this rehearsal and they still suck then their marks should be reduced.

Just like hepatthlon is not about 1 event, ESC is not about just 1 performance currently I see no valuable reasons why the juries should rate the same thing with televoters.
So what, that others aren't judged on the rehearsals... and? Will you become straight just because others are straight? Eurovision is not like others

You can't respect EBU's rules and the jury's way of voting (as well as my voting and voting of my country) It's ridiculous. Just like demanding the juries to vote similar to televoters

The rehearsal's purpose is to relax the performer and allow the mistakes or troubles to be got out of the way. The heptathlon athletes arent judged on their rehearsal performances, are they?? Why should Eurovision performers be treated any differently?
Why else the Juries and Televoters should vote on the same night? Because Eurovision is produced not for musical greatness, but for the viewers, and the Eurovision viewers expect the other half of the result to be calculated on the same performances that they watched themselves.

They didn't have a different winner last year. And 2 years ago.
So we should change the rules because the juries do not vote like televoters? 3 You say that it's not what you mean but in the same time you contraddict yourself
The juries aren't supposed to vote exactly (or similar) like televoters.

7th place difference is not so much actually so yes, they agreed in majority of cases.

Difference between tastes is not a crime. And I'm not a criminal if I or majority of my nation thinks/votes differently than you. Just like the juries.

I didnt say there was a problem last year (I'll just point out my country came last ) or in 2009, but because there wasnt a problem two years ago, doesnt mean that there isnt now. They agreed in the minority of cases and songs which were only average were allowed to succeed (I can think of many ) which they wouldnt have been based on the either 100% Televote or 100% Juryvote.

 

[AlekS]

@Aleks
Because of the reason that I have stated in my reply to doctormalismo. It is up to the EBU to decide, but I hope they make the fair decision and change the voting. From what I've seen, there's many more people wanting a change than wanting to keep it the same.

From what I've seen there are more people who don't care

Yes, the Eastern European hater who has voted for Russia . The whole bloc voting issue is something different than this issue, and it is an issue that I have discussed before so Im not going into it again. I will say though, that the issue must also be dealt with whenever the EBU decides to reform.

You voted for Russia but it's a problem when someone from here votes for Russia.
I'm sorry if it seems that I want to offend you :*) but this is how this issue looks to me, I'm just stating my thoughts about this. You said that the voting in 2006-2008 had consequences. Your own words. We all know who used to take high/top-5/top-10 places then. Russia, Ukraine, Turkey...
I also voted for those entries, as well as my family, as well as my friends and people. I never understood why people's choice was such a ... "problem" and I'll never undesrtand. Yes, let's not go into this

The rehearsal's purpose is to relax the performer and allow the mistakes or troubles to be got out of the way. The heptathlon athletes arent judged on their rehearsal performances, are they?? Why should Eurovision performers be treated any differently?
Why else the Juries and Televoters should vote on the same night? Because Eurovision is produced not for musical greatness, but for the viewers, and the Eurovision viewers expect the other half of the result to be calculated on the same performances that they watched themselves.

Other people are staright, why should you (or me) be treated differently?
People in the venue are also the viewers. In order to rate the entry you don't necessary need millions televoters.
ESC performers could already relax on the previous rehearsals. THAT's why EBU allowed many rehearsals.

I didnt say there was a problem last year (I'll just point out my country came last ) or in 2009, but because there wasnt a problem two years ago, doesnt mean that there isnt now. They agreed in the minority of cases and songs which were only average were allowed to succeed (I can think of many ) which they wouldnt have been based on the either 100% Televote or 100% Juryvote.

And again it's subjective and again they are allowed to have such taste. You can have 10 000 jurors but the tastes will be different still.
We can try millions systems but none of them will be the best and non of them will be fair, none of them will satisfy the majority of televoters.
After all this contest started as the contest for broadcasters.

You won't believe me but people from different broadcasters (including Big 4) suggested our 1st Vice president to forget about televoters and choose only internally. Their argument was - ESC was created for broadcasters and it's broadcasters who choose/vote(d) for entries. Do you think they really care about televoters if they suggest such things?

 

[CC92]

And again fail.
According to your logic we should prohibit/change televoting because Andorra's or Sammarenese votes are relevant to millions of others.

ps. and MF obviously isn't equal to 42 countries combined.

Apart from the fact that they use no televoting anyway that issue is argueable and has been discussed multiple times. On the other hand, each country in the game submits one song and has one vote. So you coluld say it is fair but I do see your point.

For the Melodifestivalen and many other preselection's format where is the difference? It is exactly the same.

 

[AlekS]

Apart from the fact that they use no televoting anyway that issue is argueable and has been discussed multiple times. On the other hand, each country in the game submits one song and has one vote. So you coluld say it is fair but I do see your point.

For the Melodifestivalen and many other preselection's format where is the difference? It is exactly the same.

Apart from the fact that Andorra used televoting in 2008 and 2009 the jury's question is highly arguable and it's been discussed even longer.
I can compare Estonia and Russia or Switzerland and United Kingdom.
It doesn't matter because the difference is big. We can start jumping at each other about whose vote is more valuable or we can simply accept the host's (EBU) position.
If they want to bring some difference in such way - whatever. If you disagree - don't vote, don't give them money
At first people complained about televoting, now 50/50 is wrong... it will NEVER be enough

As for MF. Their selection is different and it can't be compared to 42 countries combined. Sweden is not the whole Europe, Sweden doesn't collect votes from 42 national broadcasters/juries. I heard numerous complaints about MF having the juries or MF having televoters. No matter what we do and what we change there will be dissatisfied people.

 

[Mark-ESC14]

I believed the juries were introduced again to satisfy the countries who complained about the diaspora voting but in 2011 it didn't really seem to have any effect.
Norway for example still gave 7,8,10 and 12 points to their Scandinavian neighbours. So I don't know whether that's positive.

 

[Sabiondo]

I believed the juries were introduced again to satisfy the countries who complained about the diaspora voting but in 2011 it didn't really seem to have any effect.
Norway for example still gave 7,8,10 and 12 points to their Scandinavian neighbours. So I don't know whether that's positive.

Also the Balkans & Soviets votes are very flawed too...¡¡¡

 

[Yamarus]

I must say I thought 2011's 'douze' points were even more blockish than usual. I mean, Belgium giving 12 points to France? That didn't happen since who knows when.

 

[doctormalisimo]

I must say I thought 2011's 'douze' points were even more blockish than usual. I mean, Belgium giving 12 points to France? That didn't happen since who knows when.

what about Denmark and Sweden giving 12 to Ireland, and Ireland giving 12 to Denmark. And there was that weird triangle of Iceland, Hungary and Finland giving each other 12.
And of course Latvia and Bulgaria gave 12 to Italy and the UK xD

 

[Yamarus]

Hungary-Finland is not totally surprising, because of the linguistic ties between the two (yeah, I know they both sent their songs in English - or part-English for Kati, but anyway). Finnish and Hungarian are non-Indo-European languages which are closely related to each other.
And Iceland-Finland is quite self-explanatory.

Yes, Bulgaria to UK, Latvia to Italy and Greece to France were some of the surprises on my part.

 

[nikolay_BG]

Also the Balkans & Soviets votes are very flawed too...¡¡¡

Let`s say it like that. If there was an international contest with Colombia and Bulgaria in it and you had to choose between the 2 who would you choose? Colombia or Bulgaria?

 

[Sabiondo]

Let`s say it like that. If there was an international contest with Colombia and Bulgaria in it and you had to choose between the 2 who would you choose? Colombia or Bulgaria?

If was my nature i chosse Colombia but if Bulgaria had an verry good song, them i will change of tream

 

[nikolay_BG]

If was my nature i chosse Colombia but if Bulgaria had an verry good song, them i will change of tream

So will the other 99% of the venezuelans who watch this "competition", just didn`t had what to do in the evening and they saw that (let`s say) "worldvision" is on TV.

 

[Sabiondo]

So will the other 99% of the venezuelans who watch this "competition", just didn`t had what to do in the evening and they saw that (let`s say) "worldvision" is on TV.

The ''Worldvision'' as you said its telecast of the in the afternoon here (and a very comfortable time for us ), so if we watch this, the 99% of the Venezuelans as you said will watch it its just only for support Spain, Portugal and Italy - (Our Motherland, and the 2 long diasporas here) & as well as you said ''To kill the time''.

I looked for this reason, but with the passage of time now if i had the opportunity to vote, without hesitation I would do to any country of Eastern Europe with Good Song or Russia for my taste.

 

[nikolay_BG]

You would, cause you are a fan. What about the rest of the people from Venezuela that aren`t sick fans and just watched the contest, cause they didn`t had anything else to do?

The same is done only in Europe. So do we have to be judged that we vote for something familiar to us? For a person from (I love) Belarus would likely the song from Ukraine or Russia be more apealing then something like (let`s say) "Flying the flag" or "Irelande douze point".

And let`s face it, in the last decade the countries from the former soviet and yugoslav block + Greece sent better songs then UK and Ireland.
For me, as a person from the eastern part of Europe it`s more likely to like Dima Bilan & Anna Vissi more (as I did in 2006), then Daz Sampson.

The biggest missunderstanding that I don`t get is am I the only person who sees that?
This is elemental psychology, you don`t have to be a rocket scientist to find that out.

 

[doctormalisimo]

^No one is denying that. But you're making it sound like a good thing :?

 

[CC92]

^^ You are not. But for western broadcasters and agitational tabloid press it is still a political disgrace to be worsted by poor and former communistic contestants on a (perceived) long-term basis. Still it is right when NDR jury gives ten points to Denmark and twelve points to Austria after last year giving the top score to Belgium.

 

[nikolay_BG]

^No one is denying that. But you're making it sound like a good thing :?

Who said that it`s a bad thing?
And if it`s a bad thing, why is it a bad thing?

Let`s give a little example.

Serbia won with 260 points. 60 from them came from the neighbouring countries. Where did the rest 200 points came from? The space?

This example means that you don`t only have to have neighbours to win, because the neighbours can`t give you as many points as you need to win. Maybe in the past 60 points would be enough to win, but now when we have around 40 countries 60 points aren`t enough to win.

 

[doctormalisimo]

Who said that it`s a bad thing?
And if it`s a bad thing, why is it a bad thing?

Let`s give a little example.

Serbia won with 260 points. 60 from them came from the neighbouring countries. Where did the rest 200 points came from? The space?

This example means that you don`t only have to have neighbours to win, because the neighbours can`t give you as many points as you need to win. Maybe in the past 60 points would be enough to win, but now when we have around 40 countries 60 points aren`t enough to win.

???????
You were talking about neighbourly voting being natural then you were talking about Serbia getting points from all over Europe. I'm confused :?
Well anyway, voting for a country because you live near that country is wrong. You should be voting for the song that you like the most, and not even care which country it comes from. I realise that Eastern Europe tends to send well known artists and this is what the West should be doing too, but voting for a country because you like that country is not really in the ESC spirit...