Human rights and hosting the Eurovision.

[SpZ]

Anyway I started to wonder. Do you think that it is ethical to give hosting rights of so big events to countries which have larger problems with democracy and freedom of people like Azerbaijan does? For example Azerbaijan is 135th out of 167 countries in the democracy index ranking next to Rwanda and China, Freedom House lists Azerbaijan as a not free country,they are 152nd out of 178 countries in Reporters without boarders freedom of press ranking. ESC is a lot about the press so is it the right decision to have it in a country without much free press.

So anyway what do you think about the relative lack of freedom in Azerbaijan + ESC?

 

[SpZ]

Just saying that as Azeris have spent a lot of money and time on winning the contests, they obviously care about it at least a bit. And at least theoretically the chance to host the contest could have some human rights improvement conditions attached to it, etc.

 

[Schlagerman1]

I think there are some ethical problems having ESC in Azerbaijan, but in the same time has non-democratic countries hosted both ESC and other big events before. We have for example ESC in Madrid 1969, when Franco was the head of their country, which caused debate, but still hosted there. We have also have the Olympics in Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union and now recently in China, so it is not the first time at all countries like this are hosting big events.

I see non-democratic countries hosting ESC/Olympics or whatever as a chance to get to know the country and also more imporantly getting them the chance of knowing how to live in a country where democratic values are more important. I believe that Azerbaijan will make some changes in their structure, allowing more press, fixing the visas so that it can be like as a normal ESC as possible, but I am 100% sure that we will hear some things that aren't completly right in our ways to see it.

 

[SpZ]

I think there are some ethical problems having ESC in Azerbaijan, but in the same time has non-democratic countries hosted both ESC and other big events before. We have for example ESC in Madrid 1969, when Franco was the head of their country, which caused debate, but still hosted there. We have also have the Olympics in Nazi-Germany, Soviet Union and now recently in China, so it is not the first time at all countries like this are hosting big events.

Fair point, however that things have happened in the past doesn't mean they are right. It is a question about principles, I could easily say that the decision to give them the hosting rights was also a wrong choice.

I see non-democratic countries hosting ESC/Olympics or whatever as a chance to get to know the country and also more imporantly getting them the chance of knowing how to live in a country where democratic values are more important. I believe that Azerbaijan will make some changes in their structure, allowing more press, fixing the visas so that it can be like as a normal ESC as possible, but I am 100% sure that we will hear some things that aren't completly right in our ways to see it.

Also a fair point, I am quite sure that the media will pick up on the not so ideal Azer human rights thingie before ESC and already by that improve the situation. So I am not denying that there isn't any improvement. However is it the best way? Aren't we like saying that it is cool to be undemocratic until you get some hosting rights and then pretend that you improve for a while? So my point is that there most likely will be improvement anyway, but it could be better if it would be at least a bit forced to them from the outside.

 

[My Star]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8205907.stm

This link really says a lot.


However, if these things have been addressed and sorted, and arrangements can be made so that all countries are guaranteed their participation, I have no issues with Azerbaijan hosting ESC.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Imo any country without adequate human rights and freedom shouldnt be allowed to particpate in the first place hence why Im opposed to countries such as Lebanon, Syria and the likes participating. However, once a country participates, unfortunately there is nothing we can do really if they win the contest - Moscow 2009 went ahead, for example, despite the fact that on the same day gay people were attacked by yobs and the police.

Id say that the requirements for any country participating in Eurovision is that there must be some form of reasonably democratic elections, adequate human rights and civil rights and homosexuality fully legal. I dont know if Azerbaijan meets this criteria, I hope they do. However, if Armenians for example are unable to travel safely and securely into Azerbaijan for the contest then they shouldnt be able to host as it is deeply unfair. Also I find the constant references to the conflict in Eurovision to be extremely wrong and rather pathetic (thinking right now of the Eurovision 2009 postcards...).

 

[Schlagerman1]

^I agree with you fully, but I am glad that at least the singers and the Azeri delegation has said that they would like to see Armenia competing in Baku next year, so let's hope they can try to convince them and try to make it as safe as possible for them. Also we can't blame the whole public, cause we know that even some of the Azeris may like an Armenian song (2009 again, but we all know what happened after that), so even if some psychos get into the arena and starts to boo or even attack the Armenian delegation, we have to take in count that Azerbaijani contest organizers wouldn't like this to happen.

If now it happens that Armenia changes their mind and wants to compete, and Azerbaijan wouldn't allow it, then hosting rights would flew out of the country immedietly and Italy, Sweden or some other country would maybe jump in and take it instead. So whatever happens, it will be very interesting but also enjoying watching this year to come for ESC 2012 in Baku (...or not? )

 

[nikolay_BG]

Aparently you don`t know anything about Azerbaijan

Maybe hosting the ESC will make democracy more popular in Azerbaijan, don`t you think

 

[deese]

I do not understand why other paople care how much we are gonna spend on ESC and our situation with human rights. Isn't it a musical contest? So, I'd love you to discuss politics in an approprite thread.

 

[nikolay_BG]

^Many people don`t understand that Azerbaijan actually IS the most secular muslim country in the world. Yes, Azerbaijan, not Turkey.
I have my own theory why thst is a fact, but I`ll leave it to my self.

People, Azerbaijan isn`t like (let`s say) Pakistan. There aren`t muslim extremists and people who will kill you, cause you are from different ethnicy, religion etc.
Azerbaijan is a very fast developing country and they deserve at least to have a chance....

I hate this xenofobia to us, eastern people.
We never won fairly, our songs suck and we have human rights problem and all the bad things happen in our countries
and the westerners remain silent when some (let`s say) american students go to shoot their friends in schools.

 

[lucian-crusher]

First of all, once they where allowed to take part they should be allowed to host. I mean, EBU denied to participate because of the Time Zone, so EBU knew there will be problems if would've won so they said no. When EBU accepted then that's it. Now that they won they should be allowed to host.

Second of all, about the press liberty and all. I am sure is better then Cuba and in Cuba foreigners are free and not under dictatorship. So I am sure that I will be allowed to write whatever I want when I go there and so will any other press member. Maybe they will not allow the Azeri press to write whatever they want but why should I care?

And about , I am sure the only bad thing that can happen would be the public hooing durring their performance but I am sure that will do something like did in 2009 and make sure they get disqualified....

 

[SpZ]

Id say that the requirements for any country participating in Eurovision is that there must be some form of reasonably democratic elections, adequate human rights and civil rights and homosexuality fully legal. I dont know if Azerbaijan meets this criteria, I hope they do.

By international standards they really don't.

Aparently you don`t know anything about Azerbaijan

Maybe hosting the ESC will make democracy more popular in Azerbaijan, don`t you think

I'v said before that having ESC in Azerbaijan probably helps the people a little, but like i've said before it could potentially be used better. And my statistics about Azerbaijan are quite reliable.

I do not understand why other paople care how much we are gonna spend on ESC and our situation with human rights. Isn't it a musical contest? So, I'd love you to discuss politics in an approprite thread.

Because everyone should care about human rights. 2ndly ESC is a music contest, but you can't separate politics from it, as if there are at least 2 people involved = it's politics. If you don't agree with that definition then a) human rights should be a higher value above the daily politics which should be discussed b) practical reasons eg Armenia and press freedom (we are sending our press to Azerbaijan where there isn't good condition for press by the international criteria)

^Many people don`t understand that Azerbaijan actually IS the most secular muslim country in the world. Yes, Azerbaijan, not Turkey.
I have my own theory why thst is a fact, but I`ll leave it to my self.

People, Azerbaijan isn`t like (let`s say) Pakistan. There aren`t muslim extremists and people who will kill you, cause you are from different ethnicy, religion etc.
Azerbaijan is a very fast developing country and they deserve at least to have a chance....

I hate this xenofobia to us, eastern people.
We never won fairly, our songs suck and we have human rights problem and all the bad things happen in our countries
and the westerners remain silent when some (let`s say) american students go to shoot their friends in schools.

While I can't comment if Azerbaijan, Turkey, Albania or whoever else is the most secular muslim country in the world it doesn't matter. You see democracy/human rights/whatever isn't the same as secularization. North Korea might be the most secular country in the world, but that doesn't mean they have anything going on for democracy or human rights. They are 2 entirely separate things.

And Azerbaijan might not be as religious as Pakistan, but for example their freedom of press ranking is actually worse than Pakistan has. (according to Reporters Without Boarders). So there is a lot to worry about.

Yep Azerbaijan is fast developing, but as religion, it doesn't have much to do with human rights. Eg look for China if you want an example.

The thing which is clear is that the leading world statistical analysts say that the situation in Azerbaijan isn't good. And therefor it isn't xenophobia (as it is reliably proven fact).

First of all, once they where allowed to take part they should be allowed to host. I mean, EBU denied to participate because of the Time Zone, so EBU knew there will be problems if would've won so they said no. When EBU accepted then that's it. Now that they won they should be allowed to host.

Second of all, about the press liberty and all. I am sure is better then Cuba and in Cuba foreigners are free and not under dictatorship. So I am sure that I will be allowed to write whatever I want when I go there and so will any other press member. Maybe they will not allow the Azeri press to write whatever they want but why should I care?

And about , I am sure the only bad thing that can happen would be the public hooing durring their performance but I am sure that will do something like did in 2009 and make sure they get disqualified....

Allowing to take part and allowing to host aren't exactly the same thing. For example I guess that you agree with me that countries which are very unstable should be denied the hosting rights (let's say if there would be a massive civil uprising/war during the time that ESC would be held and the people would be in danger). While that doesn't apply to Azerbaijan, it shows that hosting rights and taking part rights doesn't have to apply for the same countries.

The 2nd paragraph of your post is actually really disturbing. By that you are saying that the Azerbaijan people are effectively in a worse situation than you and that you don't care about it. ==> You say that Azerbaijan citizens are inferior than you and you are ok with it. Why should you care more about for example a Romanian citizen than Azerbaijan one, while you personally don't know either of them? That opinion imo is a bit selfish and theoretically we should care about other people. Not even mentioning that if 1 country does something (eg removes press freedom) and gets away with it, it shows the governments of other countries that it is ok to do so.

And finally you may think that it is safe for the Armenians. And I might think it is safe for them. But if for example the artists going to Azerbaijan doesn't think the same, our opinion doesn't really matter much.

 

[nikolay_BG]

While I can't comment if Azerbaijan, Turkey, Albania or whoever else is the most secular muslim country in the world it doesn't matter. You see democracy/human rights/whatever isn't the same as secularization. North Korea might be the most secular country in the world, but that doesn't mean they have anything going on for democracy or human rights. They are 2 entirely separate things.

And Azerbaijan might not be as religious as Pakistan, but for example their freedom of press ranking is actually worse than Pakistan has. (according to Reporters Without Boarders). So there is a lot to worry about.

Yep Azerbaijan is fast developing, but as religion, it doesn't have much to do with human rights. Eg look for China if you want an example.

The thing which is clear is that the leading world statistical analysts say that the situation in Azerbaijan isn't good. And therefor it isn't xenophobia (as it is reliably proven fact).

So you rely only on statistics and you never went there and you actually don`t know how is life there in reality? That sounds pretty stupid to me.
The statistics aren`t so great about Bulgaria too, but we still breath. I still wonder how

I think you take things too seriously and you just try to find a think to offend Azerbaijan. Because it`s a fact that they at least try to develop. That is respectable.

 

[goktengri]

I think political issues should not be talked in Eurovision. And I don't really care if Azerbaijan is being ruled by dictatorship. When I listen to their song, these issues didn't even cross my mind, Eurovision is just music for me.

But, if the political issues of Azeris begin to disturb the contest ( for example discrimination against gays or armenians ) we can criticize them at this point.

 

[nikolay_BG]

^Serbians & russians also discriminate gays. Don`t see how that failed their hosting.
And if they do, so what? Can`t you respect their culture? Is it so hard?

 

[lucian-crusher]

Allowing to take part and allowing to host aren't exactly the same thing. For example I guess that you agree with me that countries which are very unstable should be denied the hosting rights (let's say if there would be a massive civil uprising/war during the time that ESC would be held and the people would be in danger). While that doesn't apply to Azerbaijan, it shows that hosting rights and taking part rights doesn't have to apply for the same countries.

I know for sure that has an agreement with EBU that in case they win, Eurovision would be hosted in either or . Also I am not sure but I think has the same agreement that in case they win would host. So EBU should've done that when took part and stipulate that in case they win shoud host.

The 2nd paragraph of your post is actually really disturbing. By that you are saying that the Azerbaijan people are effectively in a worse situation than you and that you don't care about it. ==> You say that Azerbaijan citizens are inferior than you and you are ok with it. Why should you care more about for example a Romanian citizen than Azerbaijan one, while you personally don't know either of them? That opinion imo is a bit selfish and theoretically we should care about other people. Not even mentioning that if 1 country does something (eg removes press freedom) and gets away with it, it shows the governments of other countries that it is ok to do so.

Are you telling me that you wouldn't go to Cuba as a tourist just because it's unfair that Cubanesse people are under dictatorship while tourists can enjoy the beauty of life next to them? Also the Azeri press is censored even if Eurovision will be hosted in , or any other country.

 

[goktengri]

^Serbians & russians also discriminate gays. Don`t see how that failed their hosting.
And if they do, so what? Can`t you respect their culture? Is it so hard?

Discrimination culture is not a thing I can respect. If you can tolerate it, I don't mind. But I still don't think there will be problems about it. I trust Azerbaijan.

Btw we saw some dirtinesses in Russia.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

^Serbians & russians also discriminate gays. Don`t see how that failed their hosting.
And if they do, so what? Can`t you respect their culture? Is it so hard?

Culture?!! You consider yobs giving a British human rights protester brain damage they hit him so hard and then the Police arresting him to be culture??

Eurovision is a gay contest in Western countries and so gay fans have to be free to act freely and without danger. If a country cant guarentee that safety then they shouldnt even be in Eurovision (hence why I am so opposed to countries like Lebanon ever participating in the first place).

 

[nikolay_BG]

Discrimination culture is not a thing I can respect. If you can tolerate it, I don't mind. But I still don't think there will be problems about it. I trust Azerbaijan.

Btw we saw some dirtinesses in Russia.

We saw dirtinesses, cause the gays thought the ESC final day, when the police is in awareness for the security of the tourists and ESC fans, will be a great day for a gay parade, no matter that the mayor didn`t allow it, they did it. Since the gays didn`t respected the mayor of moscow, why should the mayor of moscow respect them?

And I`m not talking about killing gays, because they are gays, but I am talking that for azeri (and muslim people in general) intimacy & sexuality isn`t for streets and big arenas, it`s for home. It`s secret and they don`t wanna spoil it. Probably that`s why they don`t have gay clubs in Baku.

I am not a muslim, but I live in a country with many muslims, my best friend (with who i still live) is a muslim and I know a thing or 2 for muslims

I don`t know how is in Azerbaijan, but I can tell you how are things in Bulgaria. In Bulgaria we don`t mind if anybody is gay, as far as (s)he keeps that for him or her self. Not because we don`t like gays, because we actually don`t care who with who sleeps

Azeri people and bulgarian people are close in thinking, so I suppose in Azerbaijan things are similar

 

[goktengri]

I talked about discrimination in general as well. But I can see how kind of mentality you have. If I kiss my partner in the street, or even have a sex with her, it should be none of your bussiness. Even if a gay or lesbian people make a french kiss in a park, it shouldn't interest you. If you don't want to see, simply don't look at them.

Do you want to say, if a person doesn't adopt the majority's rules and mentality, then he/she shouldn't talk about his/her opinions ? Or I misunderstand ?

If a person is gay, he can reveal it, if a person is muslim, buddhist, christian, jewish or something he should be able to talk about his opinions, criticize majority and even make propaganda of his opinions.

You say, homosexuals could do whatever they want at home, but not in public areas. But they can do it in Iran as well, the important thing is that they are be able to reveal their opinions everywhere without having discrimination. It shows the modernity of a country.

Armenians should be able to go there with '' Long-live Armenia '' t-shirts, and wave their flags. Or another nation should be able to do it.