Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ESC!

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

English isnt used because Anglo culture is dominant or better of anything, in any case that isnt true, it is used for the simple reason that more people understand it. If more people understood French, then there would be more French entries, and the same for every other language.
Do juries really favour English songs? I've never considered that they do - apparently the 2007 jury results were similar to the televote and so Marija would still have won with a song in Serbian (although I do suspect that the EBU lied about that). The juries simply vote for English songs because there happens to be more of them, not because they only like English. In addition, the televote has traditionally always voted for English songs so I dont see any difference between Jury and Televote favouritism.

As for me personally, I wont deny that I would rather listen to songs in my own language for the simple reason that they have a meaning to me and I can understand the lyrics. However, that does not mean that I am biased towards English songs, nor that I would dislike a song not in English - I would love for example if the United Kingdom sent a song in Welsh or Scottish Gaelic or so on. The same goes for the French entry, I find it really appealing that the song is in Corsican. In addition I must say that I would do anything for a song to be sang in its native language than when the artist struggles along with English, not only does it make the artist try to hard to pronounce the words rather than getting their voice perfect but it sounds really stupid and that definitely puts me off. So all in all, there are good and bad to singing in English and native languages for me.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Well there is no European language so one of the many different languages must be dominant - English hasnt just been picked for no reason, it's been picked because more people speak it and understand it than any other language in Europe. The same would occur in South America with Spanish, Middle East with Arabic and so on.
If countries themselves want to sing in English then that is there choice and they shouldnt be marked down for it imo. And heyy, what's wrong with English, anyway?

Some in this comment, excuse me, but come across as very ignorant imo. Firstly Spanish is the official language of basically all South American countries (except for Brazil) and Arabic is the official one in basically all middle-eastern ones aswell, wheres English is far from the official or main language in most European countries.

It seems you have a very centric view on Europe.

And no, in some countries (for instance ex-USSR) Russian would be the main communication language between the countries and not English. In Central-Europe it would be German and not English.

In the end of the day it doesn't change anything. So you mean that because English is a universal used language then it has more worth than other languages from an esthetic point of view? (music is about esthetic's, not about geo-political issues).

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

It's not ignorant, it's fact. The fact is that English is the international language, nowadays mainly thanks to media superpower that is the United States. Europe is the whole continent, it doesnt really matter which language regions of the continent speak in - otherwise we would have 8/9 main languages. It's about the fact that the only language that an Icelandic person and Turkish person would likely have in common is most likely to be English. I have no doubt that English is not the most spoken language in Europe based on native speakers, but based on additional languages it wins by far. And it's not just Eurovision, if there was a Worldvision for example, the main language at that would be English also.
I've never said English has more value - I've said that it is the most understood language and so most countries will use it to try to convey their music. It doesnt really matter how English became the most understood language - that's due to hundreds of years of history, what matters is that it is.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Well, I do see your point (seems the most common one), but I feel people are kind of forgetting what Eurovision (atleast imo) should stand for, and the concept of it. It is, whether we "like it or not", a contest representing the European countries basically. The languages are probably one of the most important symbols of the countries.

As for the "understanding lyrics part". Well, I think most can agree that Eurovision is not known for its brilliant poetry, also since it is a music contest, why not appreciating the music firstly? Afterall what does it matter if someone sings "I love you" or "Ich liebe dich"? Does it make the song so much better if you understand it? As I've written before, Eurovision is not and English poetry reading contest. I don't know if I belong to a minority, but I truly believe in that music itself is a universal language far more superior than any other, and sometimes we don't have to understand even, we just let the feeling of the music do the talking.

Now, I don't want bad entries to be encouraged if they are in native languages, all I am asking for is for this biasism against native languages to stop and biasism against music styles that aren't necessarily the mainstream anglo type of music.

I hope for a diverse contest that still celebrates all of Europe and with what that truly means.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Again, English may be the universal language, but music is all about esthetics and imo then no language is "superior" to the other.

If this was a poetry contest, well obviously we would have to use the language most people understood, but this is a song contest, a music contest, a EUROPEAN Song Contest even.

Does those things not mean anything really? Then what is the point with this contest tell me? Because I can see no point in a contest where European countries are represented when we overlook all what this continent has to offer esthetically and culturally (music, languages etc.)

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Stupid and dated for YOU maybe.

There are many of us who actually appreciate more languages than just English. There are many that view Eurovision as something that should represent whole Europe and not just a small part of it.

Re-read my post. I didn't say that people who appreciate languages other than English are stupid or outdated. I said that people who demand languages other than English in the ESC are.

No one said juries should give a song to an entry only because it was sung in native language, if the song itself is not worth it, then obviously not.

Really?

"I think Juries should vote for entries that Encourage use of native languages"

Those are your words. What could that possibly mean other than awarding entries bonus points whenever they utilize native languages other than English?!

But they should encourage it imo, atleast not the opposite as now.

It is not currently discouraged at all. Just because the entries you liked didn't do well doesn't mean they are being treated unfairly due to being sung in their native languages.

In fact, do you know which entry was the a Jury's Save in 2008? Croatia's "Lijena Tepa".

Heck, let's look at the entries the juries have voted for in the past two years:
2009:
4th - France (France was 17th according to the televote!)
5th - Estonia (6th according to the televote)
9th - Israel (25th according to televote)
10th - Moldova (13th according to the televote)

2010:
5th - Israel (19th according to televotes)
13th - Portugal (20th according to televotes)

Due to a general absence of songs not sung in English in the final last year, let's also take a look at the semi-finals:
Semi-final #1:
2nd - Portugal (9th according to televotes)
10th - Macedonia (15th according to televotes)
11th - Poloand (13th according to televotes, not a huge difference, but the point difference was 20, also, the song featured only a few lines of Polish)

Semi-final #2:
4th - Israel (12th according to televotes)
12th - Croatia (14th according to televotes. The point difference was 32)

All in all, 2010 had a general lack of songs sung in a language other than English, but most of them achieved bertter points jury-wise than televotes-wise.

So, how the flying fig you can extrapolate from this that the juries treat sungs not sung in English unfairly is beyond me. The reason why songs that are sung in a language other than English have not done well in recent years is:
1) They are just bad.
2) The televoters dislike them.
3) The juries dislike the entries in a musical level (composition, arrangement, production and/or lyrically)
4) A mix of two or all three.

Because the juries have actually helped songs not sung in English. That or, you know, they're simply doing their jobs and treating all entries the same, regardless of language, which is why entries not sung in English generally enjoy higher jury points than televotes.

So yeah, you may find it stupid that this is EUROpean contest, but some actually LIKE that aspect of it.

I'm not demanding a certain kind of entry be given an unfair advantage. You are.

There's nothing wrong in English, I stressed encouraging use of native languages, as far as I'm concerned English is ALSO a native language of some countries in Europe, but not all though, and this is my concern!

And how are you supposed to do that without giving songs not sung in English an unfair advantage?

I think there should be a choice, but juries should not overlook native languages or promote/favor English over the rest.

Except tghey aren't. Please provide me with examples of the juries doing just that.

I mean are you tuning into a contest representing all the European countries just to listen to your own language? :?

I'm Swedish. And I'd prefer for Sweden to never sing in Swedish at the contest ever again.

Songs are representing countries you know, that's the whole concept of this contest.

You can represent your country perfectly well without having to resort to singing in your native language.

Some in this comment, excuse me, but come across as very ignorant imo. Firstly Spanish is the official language of basically all South American countries (except for Brazil) and Arabic is the official one in basically all middle-eastern ones aswell, wheres English is far from the official or main language in most European countries.

English is the most widely spoken language in Europe.

It seems you have a very centric view on Europe.

Well yeah, as you keep stressing, this is the Eurovision Song Contest, primarily viewed by Europeans.

And no, in some countries (for instance ex-USSR) Russian would be the main communication language between the countries and not English. In Central-Europe it would be German and not English.

Very few countries speak German to a high degree.

In the end of the day it doesn't change anything. So you mean that because English is a universal used language then it has more worth than other languages from an esthetic point of view? (music is about esthetic's, not about geo-political issues).

No, he's saying that's why people use it. Because they want more people to be able to understand the lyrics of their entries. It's a choice made by participants.

The only way to change this is by giving entries sung in native languages unfair advantage, probably by giving them higher points than had they been sung in English. And nobody in their right mind wants that.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Re-read my post. I didn't say that people who appreciate languages other than English are stupid or outdated. I said that people who demand languages other than English in the ESC are.


Really?

"I think Juries should vote for entries that Encourage use of native languages"

Those are your words. What could that possibly mean other than awarding entries bonus points whenever they utilize native languages other than English?!

Offcourse I use my words, how could I possibly be speaking for someone else? And if you read the title of this topic it's named "guidelines" since I think there should be some sort of, and I also asked if there already existed any, guidelines for juries to follow. Encouraging use of native language doesn't mean necessarily giving higher points only based on the language itself, if that is all you understood from my posts, then think again.

It is not currently discouraged at all. Just because the entries you liked didn't do well doesn't mean they are being treated unfairly due to being sung in their native languages.

This is just bullsh*t, it has NOTHING to do with my own taste of songs, and I will later on present statistics that shows my point. Yes, I applaud you for doing the same proving your point, but it doesn't say anything really because in the end anyone can prove whatever they want to prove. Anyways, I'll show you later.

I'm not demanding a certain kind of entry be given an unfair advantage. You are.

I'm not "demanding" anything, I just believe there should be some sort of guidelines to follow, and within them juries can interpret as they like.

Except tghey aren't. Please provide me with examples of the juries doing just that.

As I said, I'll do that later on.

I'm Swedish. And I'd prefer for Sweden to never sing in Swedish at the contest ever again.

I'm not surprised, most Swedes hate everything Swedish. So you're just the norm.

You can represent your country perfectly well without having to resort to singing in your native language.


English is the most widely spoken language in Europe.

Offcourse you can, but you certainly missed my whole point on purpose.

Music is about esthetics. And according to your narrow mind view obviously English is esthetically superior. Well I don't buy that.

Also this is a contest representing all Europe, whether you want it or not and no, English is not the official language of all Europe.

So you spoke alot about my "demands", I think you have a demand this contest should turn into Anglovision though to fit your narrow-mindset about languages, music and Europe in general?

And the whole "understanding lyric thing" is getting the most tiring argument looking at what type of "brilliant" lyrics we have in Eurovision.

And one more thing; just because Swedes are one of the best non-English English speaking people in the world, doesn't mean that all other people are. You should step out of the shell and see the world. In some European countries you can barely make your way with English.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

And if you read the title of this topic it's named "guidelines" since I think there should be some sort of, and I also asked if there already existed any, guidelines for juries to follow. Encouraging use of native language doesn't mean necessarily giving higher points only based on the language itself, if that is all you understood from my posts, then think again.

How in the world would the juries be able to influence the use of native languages other than by awarding higher points to entries perfromed in native languages?!

This is just bullsh*t, it has NOTHING to do with my own taste of songs, and I will later on present statistics that shows my point.

Really? Because you called Yohanna a bitch for choosing to enter with a song in her national final in Icelandic despite the song already existing in English and stating that should she have won her national final, she would've utilized the English version at Eurovision, completely missing the fact that the Icelandic national final rule demand such a thing. When presented with the fact that the rule stipulated it, you said that "Well, then she shouldn't have entered at all".

You think that the Eurovision rules and national juries should instate guidelines and rules which promote the usage of native langauges and you belittle and attack anyone who think otherwise.

Yet you claim it has nothing to do with your personal taste?

Also, saying that something "should" be in a certain way is saying that not being in that way is wrong, which is demanding a change.

Yes, I applaud you for doing the same proving your point, but it doesn't say anything really because in the end anyone can prove whatever they want to prove. Anyways, I'll show you later.

If it's such an easy thing to prove, why can't you do it now? Shouldn't the statistics be already readily available?

I'm not surprised, most Swedes hate everything Swedish. So you're just the norm.

Your resentment is delicious. I have never said anything bad about Sweden as a country or Swedish as a language. I love living in Sweden. I'm not even a native Swede, yet I'm culturally more Swedish than many other Swedes. I just prefer for our entries to be as linguistically accessible to as many people as possible.

Offcourse you can, but you certainly missed my whole point on purpose.

That or maybe your point is just muddled, vague and confused.

Music is about esthetics. And according to your narrow mind view obviously English is esthetically superior. Well I don't buy that.

Nobody said that. When did anybody say that? We're merely explaining why so many countries choose to perform their entries in English.

So you spoke alot about my "demands", I think you have a demand this contest should turn into Anglovision though to fit your narrow-mindset about languages, music and Europe in general?

When did I do that? Is English your 29th language or do you just love making stuff up that other people said? I never said that entries should be performed in English (you, however, have said the opposite, that the rules should promote the use of native languages, yet you claim that isn't a demand).

I've never even encouraged that countries should do so (merely stating that is my personal wish that my home country continue doing so).

Countries should be free to choose to perform in whichever language they so choose to do so in.

And the whole "understanding lyric thing" is getting the most tiring argument looking at what type of "brilliant" lyrics we have in Eurovision.

I like understanding the lyrics of whichever songs I'm listening to. And I judge songs based on lyrics (among other things).

While I can appreciate the beauty of languages (actually, I am a linguist, I majored in linguistics in High I School, studying French, Spanish and Latin and I'm currently studying English (of which linguistics makes up a huge portion) at university), I also prefer to know what a song is about.

Was "Molitva" beautiful? Yes. Would I have enjoyed it more than I actually did had it been sung in a language I understand (without losing its core message, cadence and tone)? Perhaps.

It is my personal taste. I supported "Molitva" as the winner in 2007.

You should step out of the shell and see the world. In some European countries you can barely make your way with English.

You'll make yourself understood to more people in Eurovision singing in English than in, say, Norwegian. Nobody said everyone would understand English well, just that English is the most accessible language to Europeans (plus Israel) out of all languages spoken in Europe (plus Israel). I suggest you stop inventing statements and ascribing them to others.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

How in the world would the juries be able to influence the use of native languages other than by awarding higher points to entries perfromed in native languages?!

It's called guidelines, if you don't understand my point, don't bother really.

Really? Because you called Yohanna a bitch

Spare me false accusations thank you very much. I never did such a thing and if you can only discuss by making up things, then don't discuss with me thank you.

You think that the Eurovision rules and national juries should instate guidelines and rules which promote the usage of native langauges and you belittle and attack anyone who think otherwise.

Dude, the only one attacking id you.

Also, saying that something "should" be in a certain way is saying that not being in that way is wrong, which is demanding a change.

We're hear to discuss our opinions, don't think otherwise. Even the topic of this thread is "YOUR opinions".

If it's such an easy thing to prove, why can't you do it now? Shouldn't the statistics be already readily available?

I don't have the time to do it right now, and I'm not working for you, which means you have to wait.

Your resentment is delicious. I have never said anything bad about Sweden as a country or Swedish as a language. I love living in Sweden. I'm not even a native Swede, yet I'm culturally more Swedish than many other Swedes. I just prefer for our entries to be as linguistically accessible to as many people as possible.

Fair enough, I'm not even born here myself.

That or maybe your point is just muddled, vague and confused.

No, my point is just my point, yours is yours. It's simple

Countries should be free to choose to perform in whichever language they so choose to do so in.

And did I say the opposite really?

I like understanding the lyrics of whichever songs I'm listening to. And I judge songs based on lyrics (among other things).

Okey if it makes you feel better that someone sings "I love you hold my hand",, good for you, because that's the level of lyrics in Eurovision generally in English. I like what all Europe has to offer, you don't and you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

...just that English is the most accessible language to Europeans (plus Israel) out of all languages spoken in Europe (plus Israel). I suggest you stop inventing statements and ascribing them to others.

This truly depends on where you are in Europe, it's not true for many countries I can tell you that for sure.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

It's called guidelines, if you don't understand my point, don't bother really.

Jury guidelines? How would that even work? Would the national juries randomly start telling the press that counrties should perform more in their native languages just because (because the juries won't favour them come voting time)?

Spare me false accusations thank you very much. I never did such a thing and if you can only discuss by making up things, then don't discuss with me thank you.

This is rich coming from you, but if it wasn't you, then I humble apologize.

Dude, the only one attacking id you.

When I said that I prefer for my country's entries to be in Swedish, you implied I hate my own country or at least anything that has to do with my own country.

Okey if it makes you feel better that someone sings "I love you hold my hand",, good for you, because that's the level of lyrics in Eurovision generally in English.

It's easier for me to judge the stupidity of lyrics when I can understand them. And even if a song is briliantly composed and written, if its lyrics are idiotic, I won't support it.

I like what all Europe has to offer, you don't and you're entitled to your opinion.

Again with the blatantly false accusations. How many times do I have to tell you that I don't dislike entries performed in languages other than English? I simply prefer entries performed in English because it's easier for me to understand those.

I guess I just forgot to be prejudiced against entries not performed in English in 2007 when I supported "Molitva" as the winner (a fact I just told you in the post you quoted where you yet again claim that I dislike "all Europe has to offer").

It is not a question of disliking anything. It is a question or preference. And disliking mandates or "guidelines" which encourage the use of any particular device in Eurovision. Eurovision should be as free from mandates and guidelines as possible.

This truly depends on where you are in Europe, it's not true for many countries I can tell you that for sure.

Nobody said it's true for all European countries, merely that it's true for Europe as a continent.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Well, I do see your point (seems the most common one), but I feel people are kind of forgetting what Eurovision (atleast imo) should stand for, and the concept of it. It is, whether we "like it or not", a contest representing the European countries basically. The languages are probably one of the most important symbols of the countries.

As for the "understanding lyrics part". Well, I think most can agree that Eurovision is not known for its brilliant poetry, also since it is a music contest, why not appreciating the music firstly? Afterall what does it matter if someone sings "I love you" or "Ich liebe dich"? Does it make the song so much better if you understand it? As I've written before, Eurovision is not and English poetry reading contest. I don't know if I belong to a minority, but I truly believe in that music itself is a universal language far more superior than any other, and sometimes we don't have to understand even, we just let the feeling of the music do the talking.

Now, I don't want bad entries to be encouraged if they are in native languages, all I am asking for is for this biasism against native languages to stop and biasism against music styles that aren't necessarily the mainstream anglo type of music.

I hope for a diverse contest that still celebrates all of Europe and with what that truly means.

A-lister, I dont know why we're arguing cuz we actually agree . I like to see entries in other languages and as I said before, I much prefer a song in a native language than in bad English!
It's just that I dont believe that having a lot of songs in English is a bad thing, nor that the Juries favour English songs.

 

[MyHeartIsYours]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Again, English may be the universal language, but music is all about esthetics and imo then no language is "superior" to the other.

If this was a poetry contest, well obviously we would have to use the language most people understood, but this is a song contest, a music contest, a EUROPEAN Song Contest even.

Does those things not mean anything really? Then what is the point with this contest tell me? Because I can see no point in a contest where European countries are represented when we overlook all what this continent has to offer esthetically and culturally (music, languages etc.)

I believe that if a country wants to send a song in English then that's up to them - it doesnt really matter imo. You should know, Sweden always sends songs in English, but I really like your songs being in English because your singers are always able to sing well in English. Of course that doesnt mean I dont think you should send a song in Swedish cuz it's a beautiful language but Im just saying that Sweden is an example of where sending songs in English works.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Well, in a way we do agree, as you've already pointed out. I am not against use of English though, I think some may have interpret it that way. I've never said that we should bring back the language rule, I only suggest juries to pay attention to such details, afterall juries are there for other reasons and look for other things the general viewer might not care for or in cases overlook.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

Well, in a way we do agree, as you've already pointed out. I am not against use of English though, I think some may have interpret it that way. I've never said that we should bring back the language rule, I only suggest juries to pay attention to such details, afterall juries are there for other reasons and look for other things the general viewer might not care for or in cases overlook.

Again you claim you're not advocating an unfair advantage for entries in languages other than English, yet you say that juries should "pay attention to such details". Uh... how exactly would they do that other than by giving entries sung in native languages an unfair advantage?

Jurist #1: "Hey, this song is sung in Corsican!"
Jurist #2: "Cool, I guess. Now let's completely ignore that fact when scoring it!"

 

[Matt]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

@ MyHeartIsYours

Well, in a way we do agree, as you've already pointed out. I am not against use of English though, I think some may have interpret it that way. I've never said that we should bring back the language rule, I only suggest juries to pay attention to such details, afterall juries are there for other reasons and look for other things the general viewer might not care for or in cases overlook.

I agree with that statement but I just don't see where we can blame the juries for the fact that a lot of countries choose to sing in english. That has been a problem before juries were brought back. The jury vote is trying to offset a lot of issues such as diaspora voting and looking at the past two years that has made a difference. In addition, juries are not as easily impressed as televoters with crazy choreographies and performances. Remember 2008? The top 4 were all visually appealing but in general were not considered top of the notch musical pieces.
Fact is, there is no way to be 100% cause let's face it, music is a subjective thing. But looking at the little bit of information we have (2 years is not enough to come up with a conclusion) but the jury vote has been closer in points than the televotes in 2010.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

This is how the result of the semi-final in 2004 would have looked if the back-up juries would have decided:

12 CYPRUS (westernized ballad in English)
10 MALTA (westernized ballad in English)
8 DENMARK (typical Danish safe-song in English)
7 CROATIA (ballad in English - one of the few Croatian entries in English up till then)
6 ALBANIA
5 THE NETHERLANDS
4 SERBIA & MONTENEGRO
3 GREECE
2 UKRAINE
1 ESTONIA

Looking at this, we might have ended with two English Disney ballads in the absolute top positions if juries were to decide, leaving more original and imo interesting entries like Ukraine (ethno-pop in English/Ukrainian) and Serbia & Montenegro (ethno-ballad in Serbian) (1 and 2 respectively in televoting) outside the top.5 even.

The only entries that ended up similar as the televoting results were Albania and the Netherlands.

So there's no bias against native language and local sounding entries from the juries you say?

... more to come

 

[FallenAngelII]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

This is how the result of the semi-final in 2004 would have looked if the back-up juries would have decided:

This is your great trump card?

12 CYPRUS (westernized ballad in English)
10 MALTA (westernized ballad in English)
8 DENMARK (typical Danish safe-song in English)
7 CROATIA (ballad in English - one of the few Croatian entries in English up till then)
6 ALBANIA
5 THE NETHERLANDS
4 SERBIA & MONTENEGRO
3 GREECE
2 UKRAINE
1 ESTONIA

Sources for this? Which jury is this? Are you saying this is the voting results of all juries combined (i.e. not 12-1 points but Top 10)?

If not, then this is just one single jury from one single year back when the professional juries weren't even in Eurovision. This was before the EBU brought them back with clear guidelines.

Back then, backup juries were only to be used if the televoting failed. And the selection process and guidelines for jury members were widely different back then (non-existent pretty much).

One single jury (most of whose members are with almost complete certainty no longer working as jury members) from one single year from 7 years back does not a pattern prove.

Also, maybe you should take a look at the genres they voted for. It's not about the languages used, it's about the genres.

Looking at this, we might have ended with two English Disney ballads in the absolute top positions if juries were to decide, leaving more original and imo interesting entries like Ukraine (ethno-pop in English/Ukrainian) and Serbia & Montenegro (ethno-ballad in Serbian) (1 and 2 respectively in televoting) outside the top.5 even.

1) Not Disneyballads.
2) So the juries (or, as I suspect, a single jury) disagreed with the televoters. And?

... more to come

This was a desperate attempt to prove a case you cannot prove. A single back-up jury (not professional jury) vote from 7 years back is irrelevant, especially since they lacked the guidelines that exist today.

 

[A-lister]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

^
Seriously, I'm not here to prove any point for you exclusively.

I found the statistics from 2004 on another forum, which was suppose to show the combined votes for back-up juries that year. That's all I know.

And what exactly is YOUR contribution anyways? The only thing I can see is that you are questioning and jumping on others' opinions. You have alot of opinions on other people's opinions, but I don't see you bringing anything to the table by yourself. So please, show what YOU got before questioning the relevance of others.

With your general offensive attitude towards people in here, I'm surprised the mods haven't looked into your case.

 

[damienn]

Re: Guidelines for Eurovision juries - Your opinion on ESC juries and direction of ES

I can't really make up my mind about this,

I'm not so sure the last couple of years winners would have won if they would have sung it in their native language. I belive Satellite with Lena sung in german would have made a totally different impression, and on the other hand, even though I had no clue what the song was about I really liked Molitva when it won, (since it was the last winner who won in it's native language), So I really belive it depends on the song, and the perfomer how it will be recieved.