Finland FINLAND 2023 - Käärijä - Cha Cha Cha

[ESC United Mod Team]

 

[A-lister]

but u do know that these people are still individuals and very mixed characters right? older, younger, different musical backgrounds ect... and they HAVE to vote according to some specific "rules" - and vocal performance is one of them. sure, overall impression matters still so i would not rule out a great jury result for finland

Mixed characters yet their voting pattern is still the most predictable in the contest.. how is that so?

Yeah, I know their obsession with vocals, missing the point that this is not The Voice of Europe

This is mostly a "rap" type of entry, and we know that juries don't like that. Add on top of that the native language, the original production, the industrial sound etc and it's what they usually vote against... but like I said one can still hope for a pleasant surprise.

 

[Datura]

Mixed characters yet their voting pattern is still the most predictable in the contest.. how is that so?

Yeah, I know their obsession with vocals, missing the point that this is not The Voice of Europe

This is mostly a "rap" type of entry, and we know that juries don't like that. Add on top of that the native language, the original production, the industrial sound etc and it's what they usually vote against... but like I said one can still hope for a pleasant surprise.

it's not "their obsession", it is their JOB! there is a handbook what points they HAVE TO keep in consideration, they have to sign it. this is why they tend to vote for "better singers".

i don't get this generalisation of the juries. they are 5 different people every year. they come from different backgrounds, have different ages, different taste in music. and what u forget is (and that is very important): the votes are basically the average of those 5 different people. it's a totally different voting system!

u surely know this: they rank their favourite song on #1 and their least fave on #25, the #1 song gets 1 point, #25 gets 25... and the song with the LEAST amount of points is the overall jury winner.
if 3 jurors have a song on #1 and 2 have it on lets say #20 and #23 it gets 46 points. if all 5 jurors have a song on #7 it gets 35 points. so it will be higher in the ranking.
but if we as viewers have a song as our personal #7 we will most likely not vote for it, but 3 of us would vote for our #1 song.
do u get what i mean? (we can discuss if this is a good system, i'm not sure, but that's the way it currently is. i would prefer if each juror had to make his / her top 10 and give 12 points to the fave, that focusses more on the positives and leaves out the songs u dislike because that should imo not make such a difference)

 

[A-lister]

it's not "their obsession", it is their JOB! there is a handbook what points they HAVE TO keep in consideration, they have to sign it. this is why they tend to vote for "better singers".

I would love to see their "handbook", does it also state favor English language entries over non English language ones? Prefer safe radio Pop over more alternative or ethnic sounding entries? Treat the contest as a singing talent show rather than a song contest?

i don't get this generalisation of the juries. they are 5 different people every year. they come from different backgrounds, have different ages, different taste in music. and what u forget is (and that is very important): the votes are basically the average of those 5 different people. it's a totally different voting system!

They could very well be clones because it's pretty much the same voting patterns each year lol on top of that they hold their papers upside down, they corrupt between each others, they get bribed by Kirkorov and they systematically downvote or upvote certain countries regardless of what they send

u surely know this: they rank their favourite song on #1 and their least fave on #25, the #1 song gets 1 point, #25 gets 25... and the song with the LEAST amount of points is the overall jury winner.
if 3 jurors have a song on #1 and 2 have it on lets say #20 and #23 it gets 46 points. if all 5 jurors have a song on #7 it gets 35 points. so it will be higher in the ranking.
but if we as viewers have a song as our personal #7 we will most likely not vote for it, but 3 of us would vote for our #1 song.
do u get what i mean? (we can discuss if this is a good system, i'm not sure, but that's the way it currently is. i would prefer if each juror had to make his / her top 10 and give 12 points to the fave, that focusses more on the positives and leaves out the songs u dislike because that should imo not make such a difference)

Yeah I'm aware of the system, it's really bad and makes it even easier to manipulate the outcome.

 

[Datura]

I would love to see their "handbook", does it also state favor English language entries over non English language ones? Prefer safe radio Pop over more alternative or ethnic sounding entries? Treat the contest as a singing talent show rather than a song contest?

They could very well be clones because it's pretty much the same voting patterns each year lol on top of that they hold their papers upside down, they corrupt between each others, they get bribed by Kirkorov and they systematically downvote or upvote certain countries regardless of what they send

Yeah I'm aware of the system, it's really bad and makes it even easier to manipulate the outcome.

ok then i guess u want to see it in a negative way, or maybe i'm seeing it too naive or too positive. i trust that (most) jurors vote according to their personal taste and within the rules.
again, i think the problem is that the jury vote is an average score of people with different tastes, so this may be the reason why some "average" entries do better, it's unfortunate (and maybe problematic) but it's maths and no conspiracy.

 

[Betwixt Tales]

I really think the ESC is for Finland to lose this year.
But I'm biased as this is my favorite of all, and I actually found Sweden's performance boring.
- IMO, the bookies are waaay overselling Sweden as the predicted winner.

 

[A-lister]

ok then i guess u want to see it in a negative way, or maybe i'm seeing it too naive or too positive. i trust that (most) jurors vote according to their personal taste and within the rules.
again, i think the problem is that the jury vote is an average score of people with different tastes, so this may be the reason why some "average" entries do better, it's unfortunate (and maybe problematic) but it's maths and no conspiracy.

Why do we even have an average group of people with average taste put as "professionals" then lol.

I'm not saying you are naive, and you could very well be correct, I am just basing it on the juries track record so far and I don't see them changing any day soon if their "handbook" remains the same...

 

[Datura]

Why do we even have an average group of people with average taste put as "professionals" then lol.

I'm not saying you are naive, and you could very well be correct, I am just basing it on the juries track record so far and I don't see them changing any day soon if their "handbook" remains the same...

haha i get ur point but i wouldnt say average group with average taste, rather very diverse group with very different taste (best case. u may be right though that they select similar people, we will see on sunday when they annouce who the jury members are)

 

[A-lister]

haha i get ur point but i wouldnt say average group with average taste, rather very diverse group with very different taste (best case. u may be right though that they select similar people, we will see on sunday when they annouce who the jury members are)

Well, they might be diverse group of people but yeah their voting patterns show that diversity is for sure NOT a word in their "handbook"

 

[AliceEsc]

i think the finish entry is fantastic(ly nuts), but i do think the juries HAVE to keep in mind how bad the vocal performance is, that is why they are here. does not have anything to to with "thinking outside their tiny box", it's their job. not saying that the song doesn't leave a great impression, just saying they have to take this into consideration aswell

I'm not saying that they have to rank Finland 1st, but definitely not tank it. It's not a song that demands good vocals, although in the first part his vocals are great. In the second part of the song, I agree it could be much better.
It's not the type of song they tend to vote for, I hope this year we'll see a change in that aspect.

Btw, my main problem with most of the juries is the block voting. I can predict what (almost) each country is going to vote better than the televote. That's definitely not in their job description. Anyway, this has nothing to do with Finland, I just wanted to put it out there.

 

[heke1988]

Finland 2023 similar to Turkey 2003 in parts of the choreography.

What do you think? No, yes, maybe?

Does it matter?

 

[heke1988]

How we call copy-paste?

It's not original!

Bad.

They thought that what was on stage 20 years ago would not be noticed.

(Kind of reminds me of Turkey 2003.
A small part of copy-paste choreography, with those pink ribbons, i.e. pink ropes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOS0CaJ6D1U
Finland 2023 similar to Turkey 2003 in parts of the choreography)

Well there is a lot more other copy acts from other Eurovision performances.

 

[heke1988]

But then the performance is not suppose to win

Why not?

 

[Ezio]

oh i'm pretty sure this will win, i expect quite a landslide in the televote.
i notice that the narrative here (in austria) is that sweden is too much copy and paste and the "reporters" are focusing on the negatives instead of the posiives (like eg her vocals which are fantastic and imo miles above almost everybody else.) and outside the esc bubble finland gets lot of praise while sweden does not at all, so i think finland has this in the bag

i think the finish entry is fantastic(ly nuts), but i do think the juries HAVE to keep in mind how bad the vocal performance is, that is why they are here. does not have anything to to with "thinking outside their tiny box", it's their job. not saying that the song doesn't leave a great impression, just saying they have to take this into consideration aswell

Yeah ORF's skepticism about Tattoo is quite a boss move that probably didn't go unnoticed. They are blatantly publishing news that Sweden would not be a deserving winner. Our song itself was a boss move against music industry. I feel like ORF is unbothered, they get their viewing rates up at last, and still get to deliver their votes with a message. But I also think it's not too clever, it comes across as impartial and is hurting the Austrian act and fans. As participating broadcaster you just dont get to publish Sweden is bs and Finland ftw, especially since orf.at is a taxpayer funded website that shouldnt exist in its form. It's supposed to be video jukebox and not an online news medium.

 

[krivac]

Together with France the best song of 2023. This should wil Eurovision

 

[Datura]

I'm not saying that they have to rank Finland 1st, but definitely not tank it. It's not a song that demands good vocals, although in the first part his vocals are great. In the second part of the song, I agree it could be much better.
It's not the type of song they tend to vote for, I hope this year we'll see a change in that aspect.

Btw, my main problem with most of the juries is the block voting. I can predict what (almost) each country is going to vote better than the televote. That's definitely not in their job description. Anyway, this has nothing to do with Finland, I just wanted to put it out there.

Can u give examples which countries u think will vote for which countries more in the Jury vote than the televote? I'm interested

The problem for me personally with the finish vocals is that such a huge part is prerecorded (like cyprus, same here) and the song does not work without the "choir" that sings "cha cha cha".
It also completely annoys me that at least in the last 30 seconds of the israeli song there is no live vocal anymore at all. I really hope they change this next year.

 

[AliceEsc]

Can u give examples which countries u think will vote for which countries more in the Jury vote than the televote? I'm interested

The problem for me personally with the finish vocals is that such a huge part is prerecorded (like cyprus, same here) and the song does not work without the "choir" that sings "cha cha cha".
It also completely annoys me that at least in the last 30 seconds of the israeli song there is no live vocal anymore at all. I really hope they change this next year.

I couldn't agree with you more about the prerecorded backing vocals, I hate that rule. The countries that choose to have live backing vocalists sound so much better.

As for the juries part, some come to mind right now

Greece -> Cyprus - Azerbaijan - Moldova
Cyprus -> Greece - Sweden
Montenegro/ North Macedonia -> Serbia
Sweden -> Australia
Australia -> Sweden
Albania -> Italy
Norway -> Sweden

And so on. I mean you can expect patterns in voting from the televote, but the juries should prevent that. I'd be happy to see that changing. Maybe increasing the number of jurors could help, or decrease their power to 60% TV- 40% jury? I could get behind them then, cause they've done some good over the years, saving some of my favorites

 

[Datura]

I couldn't agree with you more about the prerecorded backing vocals, I hate that rule. The countries that choose to have live backing vocalists sound so much better.

As for the juries part, some come to mind right now

Greece -> Cyprus - Azerbaijan - Moldova
Cyprus -> Greece - Sweden
Montenegro/ North Macedonia -> Serbia
Sweden -> Australia
Australia -> Sweden
Albania -> Italy
Norway -> Sweden

And so on. I mean you can expect patterns in voting from the televote, but the juries should prevent that. I'd be happy to see that changing. Maybe increasing the number of jurors could help, or decrease their power to 60% TV- 40% jury? I could get behind them then, cause they've done some good over the years, saving some of my favorites

I dont necessarily think its just about sounding better, some Songs just would not work without the heavy use of prerecorded vocals. Finland would need several more male vocalists to make it sound similar to the Studio Version so the dancers would have to be gone
(Same for Poland and Israel)

The sound mix is so bad this year aswell (i think the uk produces a fantastic show but thats the only criticism) the live vocals are way too quiet so u massively hear the difference to the prerecorded vocals

 

[0scar]

I'm fully throwing my support behind Cha Cha Cha and I will be unapologetically mad if it doesn't win and throw shade to the country that did win (Sweden) so be prepared

 

[gingerale]

I already know who is getting my vote tonight.

 

[Ezio]

If this legend doesn’t win, I will eat a bitter Swede for breakfast toast tomorrow.