Doire 234: Alys a'r Tri Gwr Noeth - Rhy Hir 📏

[berlyda]

Gotta say tho, now I'm not sure I understand what "structural difference" is, so this is probably a good time to learn. They're different genres. The singing is the same melody in both, but there's very few similarities between the instrumental parts imo.

I would say this is a good example of Orian's "structural difference vs instrumental difference" comparison. Genre difference on its own is only an instrumental difference. Like you say, the vocal melody is exactly the same, and the structure of the whole song is more or less the same. There's a bit more instrumental riffing between the verses in Britney's version, but I don't think that's very significant.

50 editions since NSC 130 hasn't passed yet tho,180 will be the 50th, so I figure this wouldn't be allowed until NSC 181?

Yeah, this too.

 

[dogmeat]

Obviously he's not sending Tom's Diner, but we use this as an opportunity to sort out what is acceptable and what is not.

The singing is the same melody in both, but there's very few similarities between the instrumental parts imo.

To be honest, the original has very little instrumentation besides vocals in the first place. There's
- vocals
- drums
- some barely audible violin (?) in some parts
- some guitar that only punctuates the rhythm in some parts
The song is almost exclusively vocals and drums. Vocals, as you admit, are the same. And both versions are 4/4 with the same tempo. Giorgio Moroder's version clearly has more instrumentation between the verses, that aren't in the original. But I say it's just an addition to an already composed song. It's like you're baking a cake according to a recipe and then add your own frosting. It's still the same cake.

 

[doctormalisimo]

50 editions since NSC 130 hasn't passed yet tho,180 will be the 50th, so I figure this wouldn't be allowed until NSC 181?

Technically this is the 50th passing of an edition since NSC 130 has passed, if you count the ending of NSC 130 into NSC 131 as the first passing of an edition.

I agree that the songs basically sound the same (except the Giorgio/Britney version is a lot better), but does it not fall under the idea of an "original cover" as discussed in the thread?

 

[Steffan]

This version tho!

 

[esc87fan]

The original version should be fair game, Suzanne had the original long before the Giorgio/Britney cover

 

[berlyda]

Technically this is the 50th passing of an edition since NSC 130 has passed, if you count the ending of NSC 130 into NSC 131 as the first passing of an edition.

Yeah actually, I think you're right. If it were NSC 131 right now, we would say 1 edition had passed since NSC 130. So NSC 180 should mark 50 editions.

I agree that the songs basically sound the same (except the Giorgio/Britney version is a lot better), but does it not fall under the idea of an "original cover" as discussed in the thread?

I would say definitely not. Here are some good examples of what counts and what doesn't: https://www.escunited.com/forum/thr...ersions-of-old-nsc-entries.19442/post-1990595

Steffan has the right idea. I think that one would possibly be allowed, although it's closer to the borderline and some may disagree with me.

 

[Morty]

I would say this is a good example of Orian's "structural difference vs instrumental difference" comparison. Genre difference on its own is only an instrumental difference. Like you say, the vocal melody is exactly the same, and the structure of the whole song is more or less the same. There's a bit more instrumental riffing between the verses in Britney's version, but I don't think that's very significant.

To be honest, the original has very little instrumentation besides vocals in the first place. There's
- vocals
- drums
- some barely audible violin (?) in some parts
- some guitar that only punctuates the rhythm in some parts
The song is almost exclusively vocals and drums. Vocals, as you admit, are the same. And both versions are 4/4 with the same tempo. Giorgio Moroder's version clearly has more instrumentation between the verses, that aren't in the original. But I say it's just an addition to an already composed song. It's like you're baking a cake according to a recipe and then add your own frosting. It's still the same cake.

Ok... I still think they sound different enough tho... I think it's safe to say I'm not gonna be a part of the volunteering group who decides what's ok and not then, at least not when it comes to structural differences.

Technically this is the 50th passing of an edition since NSC 130 has passed, if you count the ending of NSC 130 into NSC 131 as the first passing of an edition.

Well, the rules say 50 editions must have passed, so it has to be the 51st to pass. If the rules said "one edition must have passed", you couldn't have sent it to NSC 131, you'd have to wait until NSC 132. It's one edition too soon.

I agree that the songs basically sound the same (except the Giorgio/Britney version is a lot better), but does it not fall under the idea of an "original cover" as discussed in the thread?

The original version should be fair game, Suzanne had the original long before the Giorgio/Britney cover

We agreed in the preliminary poll that there would be no exemptions for originals tho. So that doesn't make a difference.

 

[theditz83]

I might be wrong, but I thought we discounted the whole "originals will always trump covers even if a cover has already been sent" notion in the original rule discussion, but I lost track and can't find the relevant posts. Not sure if that is what you were meaning by your above post David.

I do wonder why you would want to enter a version of a song that you think is inferior to the version that has already been in the contest. Unless it's just your ultimate favourite listen till I die can't live without it song...

 

[Morty]

Yeah actually, I think you're right. If it were NSC 131 right now, we would say 1 edition had passed since NSC 130. So NSC 180 should mark 50 editions.

Uhm... No? How many editions have passed SINCE NSC 179 at this moment? None. NSC 180 will be the first...

 

[doctormalisimo]

I might be wrong, but I thought we discounted the whole "originals will always trump covers even if a cover has already been sent" notion in the original rule discussion, but I lost track and can't find the relevant posts. Not sure if that is what you were meaning by your above post David.

It was this diagram here

There seems to be a distinction between a simple cover/remix and an original cover/remix which I'm not too sure what exactly is the distinction. In this case, it feels more than a simple cover, there are additional instrumentation features which are not present in the original.

I do wonder why you would want to enter a version of a song that you think is inferior to the version that has already been in the contest. Unless it's just your ultimate favourite listen till I die can't live without it song...

It's been too long since my last win and I wish to rectify that.

 

[Morty]

It was this diagram here

There seems to be a distinction between a simple cover/remix and an original cover/remix which I'm not too sure what exactly is the distinction. In this case, it feels more than a simple cover, there are additional instrumentation features which are not present in the original.

The way I understood this (@dogmeat will probably correct me if I'm wrong), it was that before no types of covers or remixes were allowed, but after the rule change, covers and remixes considered original work (as in creative) would be. Which is where the structural differences that I don't seem to understand comes in. I don't think it has anything to do with who actually made the song first.

 

[berlyda]

It was this diagram here

There seems to be a distinction between a simple cover/remix and an original cover/remix which I'm not too sure what exactly is the distinction. In this case, it feels more than a simple cover, there are additional instrumentation features which are not present in the original.

Ah, I see where the confusion comes from now. That diagram is an oversimplification of the actual rule change. The rule change states that there must be significant structural difference between the two versions. We established in the preliminary poll that instrumental differences are not sufficient for this.

 

[dogmeat]

Yeah, I didn't post this diagram as any sort of foundation for the rule. I only made it to refute the argument that the rule wording was too fuzzy, by pointing out it's already been just as fuzzy before.

Ok... I still think they sound different enough tho...

I think they sound different because of different instrumentation, which was excluded in the final version of the rule.

I might be wrong, but I thought we discounted the whole "originals will always trump covers even if a cover has already been sent" notion in the original rule discussion, but I lost track and can't find the relevant posts.

It was included in the preliminary poll and didn't pass.

Oh, and the 50 editions thing reminds me of how Jochen once claimed an NSC period may technically take 5 days and 2 minutes if it starts 23:59 and ends 00:01 because it would cover 7 days that way xD I don't really care either way, but I would say 50 editions have passed now. The rules say "since previous instance of the song was entered", not "since the end of that edition". So we count the time that passes between confirmation period of NSC 130 and confirmation period of 180, which would be exactly 50 editions. (also, it's easier to count this way - just add 50 to know when it's eligible)

 

[doctormalisimo]

Actual entry

Great News​

Reality Show​

Great News - Reality Show

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www.youtube.com

 

[doctormalisimo]

Congrats 18 is upon us soon. It was a historic decade that delivered a win, a hosting, and the 100th entry for Doire

Let's review the Doire entries of the past decade:

171: Hall of Fame [14th in semi]
172: Toz [20th]
173: Teenage Kicks [18th in semi]
174: When We Go To War [17th in semi]
175: Gwewyn [20th in semi]
176: The Bonny [11th in semi]
177: Interstellar Disco [1st]
178: Looking for the Light [14th]
179: Black River [6th]
180: Reality Show [Finalist - TBA]

Entry to be revealed soon....

 

[doctormalisimo]

And the entry is...

 

[doctormalisimo]

Couldnt find a cover of the NSC 131 winner, so here we are; Opening the 19th decade for Doire is:

Sara Renar - Šuti i pjevaj

 

[doctormalisimo]

Callum Beattie​

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- Ghosts in the Dark

 

[theditz83]

Love Callum Beattie

 

[doctormalisimo]

^ Callum Beattie managed to deliver a 3rd top 10 in 6 editions for Doire, which is our best run of form since the 110s!

For NSC 183 in Moisantia, Doire sends....

Kite - Teenage Bliss

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