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escYOUnited
10th May 2019, 15:15
http://flagpedia.net/data/flags/w1160/kz.png

Gabe
10th May 2019, 17:35
This is the year. It will happen.

Zonne147
10th May 2019, 17:53
This is the year. It will happen.

Hope yes!

B3stbeats
10th May 2019, 22:03
This must be real plz

Mainshow
11th May 2019, 00:11
There are no valid reasons to NOT let Kazakhstan DEBUT.

Seriously, I think the EBU just waited for 2020 to be able to say that there's a new debuting country in the 20s (like Australia was the only new debuting country in the 10s).

It seems that my theory is kinda bad news for Kosovo #seeyouinthe30s

njdevils94
11th May 2019, 07:08
We need Kazakhstan at Eurovision 2020 xcheer

EscGeek
11th May 2019, 09:35
I consider ::kz european since forever because they compete under UEFA. I don't care about official borders. :lol:

C'mon EBU xpray

CPV4931
11th May 2019, 12:31
I assume this will be one of the threads with the most posts between June and August again. Nevertheless I wouldn´t mind Kazakhstan debuting.

tuorem
12th May 2019, 17:16
https://songfestival.be/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/xZhanar-Dugalova-475x250.jpg.pagespeed.ic.igeAQQvPxz.jpg

My body is ready xheat Noursoultan calling? I'll pick up the phone.

John1
15th May 2019, 22:08
https://songfestival.be/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/xZhanar-Dugalova-475x250.jpg.pagespeed.ic.igeAQQvPxz.jpg

My body is ready xheat Noursoultan calling? I'll pick up the phone.

can't wait for zhana to enter the ESC and kick everyone's butt, who are daring to stand in front of her... xheat

A-lister
16th May 2019, 20:17
I say it again (like each year in the Kazakh threads):

There is absolutely no rational and fair reason as to why Kazakhstan shouldn't be allowed to enter as all the old arguments are dead since the day Australia de facto became a permanent entrant. Unlike Australia, Kazakhstan has an actual European part, but just like Australia, they are an associate member now, they broadcasted the show for years already and they are clearly interested, and just like Australia they aren't technically part of the European Broadcasting Union Area (which btw hasn't been updated for years and is just a bad excuse these days) and just like Australia, Kazakhstan isn't part of Council of Europe either (another pseudo excuse used by the EBU to lock out Kazakhstan which obviously means nothing considering Australia is in).

Then again, my conclusion as each year (since I highly doubt the EBU will open the door to Kazakhstan to the senior ESC any day soon): Australia is clearly considered "superior" as it's a rich and culturally and politically "western" country and English speaking, wheres Kazakhstan seem to be grouped into some sort "second-class" part of Europe, being culturally and politically an "ex-USSR" country, heavily influenced by Russia and other Eastern Slavic cultures (with of course Turkic and central-Asian into the mix). With Eurovision becoming more and more streamlined English Pop contest, there seems to be less and less room for cultural diversity.

Europe is UK, Europe is Spain, Europe is Ukraine, Europe is Albania, Europe is Kazakhstan... we are different, but we are all part of the same continent and Eurovision should be about celebrating our differences and bringing us together, if EBU doesn't get its original concept anymore, then it's sad.

Oshawott
20th May 2019, 17:30
Can someone just tell me quickly what criteria their broadcaster is not meeting (yet) to become a full member of the EBU?

A-lister
20th May 2019, 17:57
Can someone just tell me quickly what criteria their broadcaster is not meeting (yet) to become a full member of the EBU?

Only pseudo criterias as I mentioned in my comment above, like the dated EBU area and not being a member of Council of Europe, and Australia is neither so those criterias mean nothing any longer anyways.

Citelis
20th May 2019, 20:47
Belarus is not a member on Council of Europe either.

Daybreak
20th May 2019, 21:16
I'm not exactly sure why many people are so eager for Kazakhstan in Eurovision. I mean, I'm not against them entering, but feel like it would be simply like Azerbaijan was - a not-exactly-democratic country where the ruling class has lot of money to spend on their participation and will probably use ESC as a PR platform, not to mention being likely another country that gives 24 points to Russia almost every year.

Alaska49
20th May 2019, 21:21
https://songfestival.be/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/xZhanar-Dugalova-475x250.jpg.pagespeed.ic.igeAQQvPxz.jpg

My body is ready xheat Noursoultan calling? I'll pick up the phone.
THE VIDEO. YOU NEED TO POST THE VIDEO ALWAYS.


https://youtu.be/AFonmXDKnlc

i 100% believe they don't let kazakhstan in because they are afraid of their power tbh. a country that sends something this majestic to the mess that was turkvizyon will stop at nothing and has nothing to lose. they will be unstoppable.

lowyby
20th May 2019, 21:43
I was on holidays last september in Kazachstan and I can't say something else than that it's a beautiful country naturewise and they have an AMAZING music scene.
Couldn't stop listening to the Kazach radio broadcasters while roadtripping

Gabe
21st May 2019, 04:03
THE VIDEO. YOU NEED TO POST THE VIDEO ALWAYS.


https://youtu.be/AFonmXDKnlc

i 100% believe they don't let kazakhstan in because they are afraid of their power tbh. a country that sends something this majestic to the mess that was turkvizyon will stop at nothing and has nothing to lose. they will be unstoppable.

this post is important and everyone should read it at least four times

A-lister
21st May 2019, 12:30
Belarus is not a member on Council of Europe either.

Bingo!

A-lister
21st May 2019, 12:31
I'm not exactly sure why many people are so eager for Kazakhstan in Eurovision. I mean, I'm not against them entering, but feel like it would be simply like Azerbaijan was - a not-exactly-democratic country where the ruling class has lot of money to spend on their participation and will probably use ESC as a PR platform, not to mention being likely another country that gives 24 points to Russia almost every year.

With this logic alot of countries should be thrown out of Eurovision, in fact Sweden is also a pseudo democracy these days so xshrug

GRE
21st May 2019, 13:47
It's time for their debut !

Ewigkeit
22nd May 2019, 00:27
I want to root biasedly for a country at the Eurovision again. Kazakhstan will be a great option for this. xheat

PostGameParty
22nd May 2019, 03:05
the people want Kazakhstan

PostGameParty
22nd May 2019, 03:23
THE VIDEO. YOU NEED TO POST THE VIDEO ALWAYS.


https://youtu.be/AFonmXDKnlc

i 100% believe they don't let kazakhstan in because they are afraid of their power tbh. a country that sends something this majestic to the mess that was turkvizyon will stop at nothing and has nothing to lose. they will be unstoppable.


woahhhhh this is like.. really amazing lol

DelX
22nd May 2019, 04:41
WoW - great performance!! Such energy!

Sean
22nd May 2019, 19:08
For anyone still unsure of the credentials of Kazakh music, just go down the Gakku TV wormhole on YouTube and gaze in wonderment at how interesting and diverse it all is. Hell, Kazakhstan bringing Q-pop would still be brand new to Eurovision!

John1
22nd May 2019, 19:21
For anyone still unsure of the credentials of Kazakh music, just go down the Gakku TV wormhole on YouTube and gaze in wonderment at how interesting and diverse it all is. Hell, Kazakhstan bringing Q-pop would still be brand new to Eurovision!

That's the tea sis'.

John1
22nd May 2019, 19:34
THE VIDEO. YOU NEED TO POST THE VIDEO ALWAYS.


https://youtu.be/AFonmXDKnlc

i 100% believe they don't let kazakhstan in because they are afraid of their power tbh. a country that sends something this majestic to the mess that was turkvizyon will stop at nothing and has nothing to lose. they will be unstoppable.

Just imagine how it would look on an ESC stage... xheart

DaFlo
22nd May 2019, 22:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MyK99AE9FU

This relevant as well.

njdevils94
23rd May 2019, 10:39
This song is great


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrhFOCHjufs

EscTurkey
23rd May 2019, 14:30
They sent their most famous child singer to JESC 2018 at their debut and they gave only 4 to ::ru and 0 to ::az
So they proved themselves that they will be totally neutral and do their best to contribute to the contest.
There's no reason to exclude them. Idk what they're waiting for.

A-lister
25th May 2019, 02:48
They sent their most famous child singer to JESC 2018 at their debut and they gave only 4 to ::ru and 0 to ::az
So they proved themselves that they will be totally neutral and do their best to contribute to the contest.
There's no reason to exclude them. Idk what they're waiting for.

This! Obviously it was just one show, but if it's any indication of how their voting would look like, then people should relax a bit...

For EBU to start treating countries equally? xshrug

Gabe
25th May 2019, 04:39
I'm just here to post yet another reason why they should let them in.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfJiTlJCwks

Sean
9th June 2019, 21:23
Can't be having Kazakhstan drop off the front page. Make some noise! #WeAreReadyToStan

Alaska49
9th June 2019, 21:34
we are ready to kazakhSTAN

JohnyKaz
10th June 2019, 00:55
I don't see why the EBU wouldn't let Kazakhstan in. Their debut in JESC was fantastic and they are already broadcasting Eurovision. And it is as much european as Israel and Australia. So..... #wearereadytoKAZAKHSTAN :D

John1
10th June 2019, 02:33
Kazakhstan isn't prepared for the first ever launch of all wigs on Earth in space, which its debut will lead to.

Mainshow
10th June 2019, 15:28
I don't see why the EBU wouldn't let Kazakhstan in. Their debut in JESC was fantastic and they are already broadcasting Eurovision. And it is as much european as Israel and Australia. So..... #wearereadytoKAZAKHSTAN :D

Actually, Kazakhstan is even more European than Cyprus.
There's really no valid reason for the EBU to prevent Kazakhstan from taking part.

Loindici
10th June 2019, 17:59
I think it has something to do with the European broadcasting area or something. They are an ITU member, but their territory isn't really in EBA.

Realest
10th June 2019, 18:10
Heres hoping for another Year without ::kz

John1
10th June 2019, 18:12
Let Faroe Islands debut alongside Kazakhstan, so that both ::ru and ::se (or ::dk, it depends if they make it through or not :p ) will get an automatic 24 points no matter what they send. xpray

But, yeah, by not allowing ::kz to debut, while ::au is still competing despite being *cough* quite *cough* far from Europe itself is ridiculous. We all know that Kazakhstan is taking at major European events (Euro for instance or JESC) and they're considered as being part of Europe so is Russia.

And don't even get me started on Azerbaijan, which is even less European in regards to its cultural heritage than Kazakhstan.

tomos2019
10th June 2019, 19:05
I don't know, thing is technically geographically Azerbaijan is closer to the rest of Europe in terms of Turkey, Cyprus etc, isn't it, whereas Kazakhstan's technically not got many borders with European countries?

While I am initially opposed to more non-European countries in the contest, I can't deny Kazakhstan's enthusiasm, plus they do make good music and they probably would at least sing in their native language! Kazakhstan being let in seems inevitable now so why not next year.

John1
10th June 2019, 22:10
I don't know, thing is technically geographically Azerbaijan is closer to the rest of Europe in terms of Turkey, Cyprus etc, isn't it, whereas Kazakhstan's technically not got many borders with European countries?

While I am initially opposed to more non-European countries in the contest, I can't deny Kazakhstan's enthusiasm, plus they do make good music and they probably would at least sing in their native language! Kazakhstan being let in seems inevitable now so why not next year.

Cyprus is considered more as being located in Asia, though its culture is more connected to Europe than Asia. Besides, Turkey has a huge part of its territory located in Asia.

Ironically, the EBU didn't waste time to let ::ge, ::am and ::az in, knowing that Azerbaijan isn't even located in Europe. Moreover, Kazakhstan, in the same way as Turkey, has like 5% of its territory located in Europe.

tuorem
12th June 2019, 16:21
We'll know soon enough if the EBU waited for 2020 to welcome Kazakhs. If they managed to come up with a 5-year deal for Australia, they should have had plenty of time to discuss this matter too.

They could sweep them under the rug as they wished in the past, but now that JESC 2018 happened it would be awkward, unjustified and unprecedented to leave them by the wayside after officially taking part in an event of the "Eurovision" brand. It's all or nothing: if they were eligible for JESC, so are they for Eurovision.

John1
13th June 2019, 08:58
We'll know soon enough if the EBU waited for 2020 to welcome Kazakhs. If they managed to come up with a 5-year deal for Australia, they should have had plenty of time to discuss this matter too.

They could sweep them under the rug as they wished in the past, but now that JESC 2018 happened it would be awkward, unjustified and unprecedented to leave them by the wayside after officially taking part in an event of the "Eurovision" brand. It's all or nothing: if they were eligible for JESC, so are they for Eurovision.

If I properly recall what happened back in 2003, ::by did debut at the JESC and the year after at the ESC. So, who knows?

Still, it'd be totally ridiculous to keep them aside from any ESC-related events and allowing them to participate at the JESC in the meantime.

John1
13th June 2019, 08:59
deleted

Sabiondo
19th July 2019, 18:29
::kz in JESC 2019 again!

So, when EBU will put aside their *::au$$ Double Standards* and let this country competing in ESC? :rolleyes:

John1
19th July 2019, 19:52
::kz in JESC 2019 again!

So, when EBU will put aside their *::au$$ Double Standards* and let this country competing in ESC? :rolleyes:

Australia is still further away from Europe than Kazakhstan. EBU's logic? Oh well.

Preuss
19th July 2019, 19:58
How much do Australia even pay because from what I’ve heard, Sony’s the one paying for their stagings and this year, KMH had to fund a lot herself
SBS sounds pretty poor to me

Loindici
20th July 2019, 06:02
::kz in JESC 2019 again!

So, when EBU will put aside their *::au$$ Double Standards* and let this country competing in ESC? :rolleyes:



Australia is still further away from Europe than Kazakhstan. EBU's logic? Oh well.

They're culturally reminiscent to the hodge-podges of UK and America, plus they've been broadcasting for years, and probably asked for participation dozens of times but have only been considered (who knows).

Mainshow
20th July 2019, 09:20
Actually, Kazakhstan IS Europe(an) as well: Geographically and historically. There's no point of not letting them debut next year, especially since the country is allowed to take part in JESC for two consecutive years.

John1
20th July 2019, 13:31
They're culturally reminiscent to the hodge-podges of UK and America, plus they've been broadcasting for years, and probably asked for participation dozens of times but have only been considered (who knows).

Then, ::au's participation at the ESC would totally be unfair considering that the EBU keeps overlooking European countries, which are willing to take part. I'm mainly thinking of Liechtenstein, Kazakhstan or even Kosovo, though the latter isn't independent at all yet (well, it actually depends on your PoV on this issue... :lol:).

Loindici
20th July 2019, 15:29
Then, ::au's participation at the ESC would totally be unfair considering that the EBU keeps overlooking European countries, which are willing to take part. I'm mainly thinking of Liechtenstein, Kazakhstan or even Kosovo, though the latter isn't independent at all yet (well, it actually depends on your PoV on this issue... :lol:).

It probably is, if we are thinking about how 'fair' it is. However, with a little bit of reading, Australia's participation and the other countries thing would have been explained as follows:

1. Australia's participation starts with a slow but steady process. They didn't directly apply participation, since as an Associate they actually can't. Firstly they applied an interval video about Australia in ESC58 (Malmö 2013). A year later, they asked permission to EBU and DR to submit an interval session to the ESC59, inviting Jess as a 'prototype act'. It was received pretty well by the audience. Then, commemmorating ESC60 as a special season, EBU and ORF decided to invite Australia to participate as a special guest. Chances are, wih the good reception of Australia that season, EBU decided to keep them as a regular participant. :?

2. I also feel age of membership has an effect to the decision for Kazakhstan. SBS has been in Associate to EBU since 1979, with Khabar, as the Kazakh Associate of EBU, has been in Associate since 2016. Being a new Associate, Khabar might still need time to be familiar with not only the other EBU and Associate members, but also to the technical requirements and benefits as a media outlet in EBU's body. I think Kazakh participation in JESC is already a huge benefit as an Associate. Plus, it also gives time for Khabar to be familiar with the organizational aspects of the contest, should it participate in ESC someday, and to gain experience and trust as a new member. :p

3. About Kosovo and Liechtenstein, their delay might have something with the technical and administrational requirements. Liechtenstein's 1FLTV is a private broadcaster, while Kosovo's membership would possibly be inserted as a Serbian broadcaster since it is a partially recognized state. About the Caucasian public broadcasters, all I can find is that they are approved as regular EBU members in 2005 (and 2007 for Azerbaijan) and the definition of EBA was expanded to include them, so... I guess it's already a spilt milk? :mrgreen:

Sammy
21st July 2019, 19:24
Actually, Kazakhstan IS Europe(an) as well: Geographically and historically. There's no point of not letting them debut next year, especially since the country is allowed to take part in JESC for two consecutive years.

About the geographical part - this is a discussion with multiple sides that I don't want to get into it. But historically??? Enlight me on this. When was (repectively how IS) Kazakstan a historic part of Europe? Just being part of the Russian empire does not count, because then Alaska would be also a historic part of Europe which is frankly ridiculous. Also the colonies or the new territories in the past were never seen as a part of Europe - with perhaps one single exception: Algeria.

John1
21st July 2019, 20:20
About the geographical part - this is a discussion with multiple sides that I don't want to get into it. But historically??? Enlight me on this. When was (repectively how IS) Kazakstan a historic part of Europe? Just being part of the Russian empire does not count, because then Alaska would be also a historic part of Europe which is frankly ridiculous. Also the colonies or the new territories in the past were never seen as a part of Europe - with perhaps one single exception: Algeria.

Being from France, I can absolutely tell you with 100% accuracy that ::dz doesn't consider itself as part of Europe neither does Europe. :lol:

Gabe
21st July 2019, 20:35
About the geographical part - this is a discussion with multiple sides that I don't want to get into it.

It's a fact that Kazakhstan is in Europe geographically, although the Europe/Asia border is somewhat arbitrary. Turkey is also 'in Europe' despite most of its territory being in Asia.

https://i.gyazo.com/59d02119bb87ca8d2e4960a73ec34873.png

-------------

Something else that is important is that when Kazakhstan applied for Special Guest status to the Council of Europe, the Council decreed that it could apply for full membership.

As for cultural arguments, I genuinely don't understand how people can say that Azerbaijan, Armenia or Georgia (or Turkey!!) are European countries and in the same breath, with a straight face, say Kazakhstan isn't.

Gera11
21st July 2019, 20:48
When former European colonies are allowed to participate but banning Kazakhstan is the hill people choose to die on.

John1
21st July 2019, 20:50
It's a fact that Kazakhstan is in Europe geographically, although the Europe/Asia border is somewhat arbitrary. Turkey is also 'in Europe' despite most of its territory being in Asia.

https://i.gyazo.com/59d02119bb87ca8d2e4960a73ec34873.png

-------------

Something else that is important is that when Kazakhstan applied for Special Guest status to the Council of Europe, the Council decreed that it could apply for full membership.

As for cultural arguments, I genuinely don't understand how people can say that Azerbaijan, Armenia or Georgia (or Turkey!!) are European countries and in the same breath, with a straight face, say Kazakhstan isn't.

http://www.ilpost.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/streep.gif

Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are somehow connected to Europe culturally speaking, but with that matter being pointed out, I can't see how Turkey can be considered more European than Kazakhstan by some people here though. xshrug


When former European colonies are allowed to participate but banning Kazakhstan is the hill people choose to die on.

Isn't ::kz a former colony of ::ru? xshifty

Gera11
21st July 2019, 21:09
Isn't ::kz a former colony of ::ru? xshifty

Not really. The Kazakh Khanate has existed since around 15th century until 1731.

Realest
21st July 2019, 21:11
I have a Feeling, my Nightmare will come true this Year.

Preuss
21st July 2019, 21:36
As long as they bring some good stuff, I don't mind really xlisten2

randajad
21st July 2019, 21:39
http://www.ilpost.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/streep.gif

Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are somehow connected to Europe culturally speaking, but with that matter being pointed out, I can't see how Turkey can be considered more European than Kazakhstan by some people here though. xshrug



Isn't ::kz a former colony of ::ru? xshifty
Tbh, I see Turkey completely as an European country. For 500 or so years, Ottoman Empire was the main power in the Balkans, therefore shaping the culture of many of these countries. We share so much history, but not only us, they were big rivals with Austria and Hungary, as well as Russia, for so many years. Also their presence in Balkan countries is still huge today, specially in Bosnia. We have the same cuisine, music, customs and many Turkish loanwords in our lanugages, as well Slavic words in Turkish; also despite some might say, almost the same mentality. So, there’s that.

Also, to be completely honest I did not know nothing about The Caucasus countries, except that Greek myth about Prometeus, until they started competing at Eurovision; so not very much European from my perspective.

Citelis
21st July 2019, 23:55
Turkey is not close to Europe anymore (i mean cultrally). Turkey now is getting closer to countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, Azerbaijan etc that culturally have nothing to do with Europe. However Eurovision is not about topic culture so all of them should be welcomed to participate.

Mainshow
21st July 2019, 23:59
About the geographical part - this is a discussion with multiple sides that I don't want to get into it. But historically??? Enlight me on this. When was (repectively how IS) Kazakstan a historic part of Europe? Just being part of the Russian empire does not count, because then Alaska would be also a historic part of Europe which is frankly ridiculous. Also the colonies or the new territories in the past were never seen as a part of Europe - with perhaps one single exception: Algeria.

The thing with Kazakhstan is that it was "not just being part of the Russian empire". Kazakhstan CHOSE to be part of it to prevent itself from becoming part of the Chinese hemisphere back in the 18th century. Unlike, colonies in North Africa, Kazakhstan was a vast country without any city life. It was the Russians who did found cities on Kazakh ground. You should visit Almaty. It's kinda like Kyiv or Yerevan. There's nothing "Asian" about it. It's the biggest city of the country by far and resembles the Kazakh mentality.

Also, the Kazakh people got heavily "russified". Even today, the most spoken language in the cities is Russian. Even people of Kazakh ethnicity speak Russian to each other. It's even very often the case that it's the mother tongue of Kazakh people, especially in the cities and in the Northern part of the country.

Demographically speaking, Kazakhstan is a very diverse country. Even nowadays, more than 1/4 of the country is European (I still think that Kazakh people are European AND Asian - as the country [geographically speaking]): Russians, Germans, Ukrainians, Tartars).

In Alaska, only 1% are of Russian descent (whilst we still have more than 20% Russians living in Kazakhstan) + it's not an independent country so that stating it as an argument isn't really fitting in this situation.

I would argue that New Zealand could also take part (if they want to) but unlike Kazakhstan they aren't geographically European and don't care about Eurovision at all whilst Kazakhstan desperately wants to compete.

Johan Engvall & Svante E. Cornell (Institute for Security and Development Policy) also argue that that Kazakhstan is not partly European based on geography but also on how the state has been created after independence: It is a secular country and share the same European views on the concept of nationality and citizenship.

I didn't argue that Kazakhstan should be seen as a "full" European country but it shares both - European and Asian - characteristics and features.
There's no point of letting Iceland (geographically speaking, partly American), Cyprus (geographically Asian; part is even occupied by an "Asian" country), Turkey (the huge majority of its territory is Asian), Azerbaijan, Israel, Armenia and Georgia participate but prevent Kazakhstan from taking part.

Mainshow
22nd July 2019, 00:02
Turkey is not close to Europe anymore (i mean cultrally). Turkey now is getting closer to countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, Azerbaijan etc that culturally have nothing to do with Europe. However Eurovision is not about topic culture so all of them should be welcomed to participate.

Do you mean "political"? - Because socio-culturally, these countries can be classified as European.
At least, Russian culture is definitely, without doubt, European.

Citelis
22nd July 2019, 00:05
Do you mean "political"? - Because socio-culturally, these countries can be classified as European.
At least, Russian culture is definitely, without doubt, European.

Yes you are using the correct word.
What i mostly mean is that right now those countries are not free.

AshleyWright
22nd July 2019, 03:05
This is always something ive been sat on the fence about and not really cared about either way, but by this point it's really starting get boring and obvious the EBU has an agenda. They're in JESC for a 2nd year, and we've got Australia as a permanent member. It's a very poor joke that they're still blocked out of eurovision, honestly my one reservation is that it's fairly likely going to be another nation added to that hot russian diaspora bloc vote and that shit is big enough but that isn't an excuse enough at all to keep them out. They should absolutely be allowed to join ESC and there is no doubt or question in the matter. If we're allowing Australia, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia & Turkey and also North Africa and a chunk of the middle east if they ever join one day then there is nothing that should stop Kazakhstan. At least they're geographically in Europe partly. which is more than what can be said for 3 of the current regular participants. The EBU only wont allow it as it goes against their clear agenda which Kazakhstan doesn't suit, but Australia, USA etc does.

Loindici
22nd July 2019, 04:05
This is always something ive been sat on the fence about and not really cared about either way, but by this point it's really starting get boring and obvious the EBU has an agenda. They're in JESC for a 2nd year, and we've got Australia as a permanent member. It's a very poor joke that they're still blocked out of eurovision, honestly my one reservation is that it's fairly likely going to be another nation added to that hot russian diaspora bloc vote and that shit is big enough but that isn't an excuse enough at all to keep them out. They should absolutely be allowed to join ESC and there is no doubt or question in the matter. If we're allowing Australia, Israel, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia & Turkey and also North Africa and a chunk of the middle east if they ever join one day then there is nothing that should stop Kazakhstan. At least they're geographically in Europe partly. which is more than what can be said for 3 of the current regular participants. The EBU only wont allow it as it goes against their clear agenda which Kazakhstan doesn't suit, but Australia, USA etc does.

Khabar is still a very fresh associate (only since 2016), although whether they aren't yet elected into a regular member is for unknown reasons. 2nd year in JESC is something incredible for a fresh associate member.

AshleyWright
22nd July 2019, 04:09
Khabar is still a very fresh associate (only since 2016), although whether they aren't yet elected into a regular member is for unknown reasons. 2nd year in JESC is something incredible for a fresh associate member.

Even so, I can't help feel that if a country like Azerbaijan tried to join now, instead of back in 2008 they'd face the same hurdles - unless they just used oil money to buy their way in (but then Kazakhstan has greater oil reserves than Azerbaijan and more oil money). There is greater powers at play here.

Sammy
22nd July 2019, 08:43
Being from France, I can absolutely tell you with 100% accuracy that ::dz doesn't consider itself as part of Europe neither does Europe. :lol:

You misunderstood me. What I meant was that colonies were never considered a part of the main country (from the view of the colonizer). There is only one exception to this which is Algeria that was in fact seen as a part of mainland France. It had a different status than for example Tunisia. Algeria was actually 3 french departments. As you certainly know there was this famous saying "La méditerranée traverse la France comme la Seine traverse Paris" (it became even the title of a book). But this is really getting off-topic here. :lol:

Sean
23rd July 2019, 00:06
Come on EBU, what barriers even exist at this point?

DenizESC
23rd July 2019, 02:22
Omg the classic heated "iS tUrKeY eVeN eUrOpEan¿" debate xrofl xrofl we meet again. It's everywhere on the internet and it usually makes a lot of people have a lot of mixed emotions for some reason :D

I don't blame you guys XD but I cringe each time I hear people arguing if a country is great enough to belong to "the Europeans".

So let's speak facts:

Countries like Turkey, Kazakhstan, Russia, Georgia all are Eurasian (European and Asian) countries! Aka geographically have in fact significant land on both continents and therefore should not ever be rejected for not 'being European enough'. It doesn't get more European then being inside of the continent lol unless there is a different kind of agenda

There is no way Kazakhstan should be rejected, when Armenia, Azerbaijan and Israel can take part, who are fully Asian countries, not even Eurasian and this is based on geographical facts

AshleyWright
23rd July 2019, 02:43
Omg the classic heated "iS tUrKeY eVeN eUrOpEan¿" debate xrofl xrofl we meet again. It's everywhere on the internet and it usually makes a lot of people have a lot of mixed emotions for some reason :D

Instagram posts are a hot bed of action over this. I die inside I ever see some random post come up in explore about Europe and Turkey is included because you can bet anything comment number 1 is "turkey isn't europe" and then an onslaught of replies of triggered Turkish people. Comment 2 is usually someone joking about Comment 1 by saying "Srbija isn't Europe".

Loindici
23rd July 2019, 04:20
This discussion can be stopped on context if we all can agree that every participant of Eurovision is any broadcaster with Regular EBU membership or a lucky Associate member with invitation, but I guess these geographical and cultural arguments would always be hotly debated.

Himan
23rd July 2019, 10:14
Instagram posts are a hot bed of action over this. I die inside I ever see some random post come up in explore about Europe and Turkey is included because you can bet anything comment number 1 is "turkey isn't europe" and then an onslaught of replies of triggered Turkish people. Comment 2 is usually someone joking about Comment 1 by saying "Srbija isn't Europe".

UK isn't Europe.


https://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw

Time for the Europe joke...

A-lister
23rd July 2019, 12:57
Relax people, EBU won't invite Kazakhstan as their view on what qualifies as "Europe" is limited to Australia and it's clear to me the people who are against Kazakhstan entering are ignoring the fact that they are partly in Europe and share EBU's narrow-minded view on what Europe is, it's sad but it is what it is.

John1
23rd July 2019, 20:15
Relax people, EBU won't invite Kazakhstan as their view on what qualifies as "Europe" is limited to Australia and it's clear to me the people who are against Kazakhstan entering are ignoring the fact that they are partly in Europe and share EBU's narrow-minded view on what Europe is, it's sad but it is what it is.

Not that year, but they will most definitely invite them within a few years, as they're allowed to take part at JESC.

A-lister
24th July 2019, 12:40
Not that year, but they will most definitely invite them within a few years, as they're allowed to take part at JESC.

Maybe under a new management and supervisory board, I don't see it happen in the foreseeable future as things are looking now though unfortunately, but I like to be proven wrong on that. jESC is a different matter, and it's a concept that plenty of times were on the brink of being cancelled due to lack of interest from both broadcasters and the general public, so I think the EBU are more flexible here simply to keep the project floating so more countries - gives more fees (revenues) and potentially enough viewers to keep things going.

A-lister
24th July 2019, 12:42
I would love for ::kz to enter just so they can enter this singer and to witness the amazingly cringeworthy awkward situations when hosts and commentators will try to pronounce her first name :lol: ... oh and this song is hot! Maruv take some notes !


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWztQHWBZN8

Loindici
24th July 2019, 15:53
I think ::kz 's could materialise easier if ::ru or ::by wins someday... (or maybe ::az to an extent)

considering that their JESC invitation was there when ::ru won the contest and ::by hosted.

BorisBubbles
25th July 2019, 21:43
I don't care, at all, whether Kazakh makes it in or not, but that may just be spill-over OldAzerbaijan PTSD on my behalf. If their presence is to become that of a corrupt overscoring jury demon (like Azerbaijan pre-2015, or DNA-era Australia), they'd better stay far away.

More countries in ESC is nice and all, but not if it impedes Estonia's and Slovenia's chances to make the Grand Final ^__^

Preuss
25th July 2019, 22:45
If their entries are good, I don’t see why they shouldn’t do well with juries and why fans should believe they are corrupt and having a bias towards Kazakhstan :?

Sabiondo
6th September 2019, 22:43
When the #Racism #DoubleStandars #Discrimination will stop over this country EBU? :rolleyes:

https://eurovoix.com/2019/09/06/kazakhstan-no-eurovision-debut-in-2020/?fbclid=IwAR3fCWy2V4peErpUy513IcWRLqcmNzkKHEg8R8Fi nvvVVlINOiAiweAKo7Y

tuorem
6th September 2019, 23:15
Zhanar calmly waiting for the running joke to end while judging the EBiaS.

https://bodysize.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Zhanar-Dugalova-300x400.jpg

I guess they're afraid of their potential power in the contest (weren't they third with televoters in JESC last year?). Imagine the embarrassing situation if they won with their debut song while Aussies would keep wandering in the wilderness after six attempts. :lol:

Preuss
7th September 2019, 00:44
Well yeah I don’t really see why Kazakhstan can’t participate when Australia can :p
How long have they wanted to join the contest?

Loindici
7th September 2019, 01:21
I think Belarus or Russia needs to win ESC in order for Kazakhstan to debut. That's something I noticed in JESC 2018,.

Mainshow
7th September 2019, 10:23
Well yeah I don’t really see why Kazakhstan can’t participate when Australia can :p
How long have they wanted to join the contest?

They have sent a delegation to Eurovision 2009, for sure... It's more than 10 years now at least... It doesn't make sense to wait any longer to let them debut. Unlike Australia, Cyprus, Israel, Morocco, Armenia, Tunisia, Lebanon (which are all allowed to participate), Kazakhstan still has some European territories at least (even though it's rather small).

I hate double standards!

Ezio
7th September 2019, 17:31
Well yeah I don’t really see why Kazakhstan can’t participate when Australia can :p
How long have they wanted to join the contest?

Let's get rid off Australia then. Kazakhstan and them can join AsiaVision.

A-lister
15th September 2019, 21:06
Are people still surprised that EBU is locking the door? I guess there's nothing new to say here than was already said, it's just double standards, hypocrisy and cultural discrimination nothing else...

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 19:28
After winning the jury votes in JESC, it's time EBU invited Kazakhstan to Rotterdam!

ESC94
24th November 2019, 20:00
I don´t know why, but even though I want as many countries participating as possible I wouldn´t be that excited about ::kz entering the ESC. xshrug

Sean
24th November 2019, 20:46
👏 Bring 👏 Them 👏 In 👏

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 20:50
Even though I love the Polish JESC entry and I think that the victoriy is well-deserved, I would have loved to see Kazakhstan win as well.. I mean... the EBU wouldn't be that stupid to ask the Kazakh JESC winner to attened ESC in Rotterdam and asks him to promote the JESC whilst his own country has been denied access to join Europe in the real thing.

tuorem
24th November 2019, 20:56
I had nothing better to do than watch JESC this afternoon, so I came, I saw and I wasn't here for that.

The sadness of seeing Kazakhs top the jury vote with their Disney ballad while those points needed to go Tuleshova's way last year. :? Unfortunate.

Congrats I guess, but that's not the kind of song I want to see from them.

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 21:09
I had nothing better to do than watch JESC this afternoon, so I came, I saw and I wasn't here for that.

The sadness of seeing Kazakhs top the jury vote with their Disney ballad while those points needed to go Tuleshova's way last year. :? Unfortunate.

Congrats I guess, but that's not the kind of song I want to see from them.

I agree.
Tuleshova deserved to win last year. I think that #3 in the online voting was a success and accurate but juries were so mean to her by placing her what.. 9th? That was so unfair...

However, we shouldn't forget that adult jury members look out for modern songs or power vocals whilst kids enjoy catchy fun songs maybe? - I guess that's why we ended up seeing Kazakhstan and Poland so high in the jury vote this time.

EscGeek
24th November 2019, 21:18
Australia 2015 was announced in February.. there's still time! xcheer

But please, try to avoid disney ballads. xhand

John1
24th November 2019, 21:29
What will stop the EBU from allowing them to compete?

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 22:05
What will stop the EBU from allowing them to compete?

I seriously believe that the EBU brought in Australia to have another "Western"-like country to gain a better balance... I also believe that the EBU (like many Eurovision fans have already shown as well) is afraid of getting another country which heavily votes for neighbouring countries (especially Russia).

However, let's have a look at Kazakhstan's jury votes in JESC:
2018:
Top scores: 12 North Macedonia, 10 Italy, 8 Malta
4 pts Russia
0 pts Azerbaijan

2019:
Top scores: 12 Poland, 10 Ireland, 8 Australia
3 pts Russia

This point is invalid. I mean, Kazakhstan has clearly shown that it can vote in a very fair way. Besides, if it decides to give 12 pts to Russia in ESC, it's their right to do so. It's not like Germany didn't give Switzerland 10 pts this year....

Sammy
24th November 2019, 22:17
I seriously believe that the EBU brought in Australia to have another "Western"-like country to gain a better balance... I also believe that the EBU (like many Eurovision fans have already shown as well) is afraid of getting another country which heavily votes for neighbouring countries (especially Russia).

However, let's have a look at Kazakhstan's jury votes in JESC:
2018:
Top scores: 12 North Macedonia, 10 Italy, 8 Malta
4 pts Russia
0 pts Azerbaijan

2019:
Top scores: 12 Poland, 10 Ireland, 8 Australia
3 pts Russia

This point is invalid. I mean, Kazakhstan has clearly shown that it can vote in a very fair way. Besides, if it decides to give 12 pts to Russia in ESC, it's their right to do so. It's not like Germany didn't give Switzerland 10 pts this year....

I suspect that the votes would be different when it comes to the big Contest. Kids vote differently than adults and the big contest has more prestige - hence there will be more pressure on the juries. It's not as if the public in the JESC is comparable to the one of the actual contest.

Realest
24th November 2019, 22:19
I seriously believe that the EBU brought in Australia to have another "Western"-like country to gain a better balance... I also believe that the EBU (like many Eurovision fans have already shown as well) is afraid of getting another country which heavily votes for neighbouring countries (especially Russia).

However, let's have a look at Kazakhstan's jury votes in JESC:
2018:
Top scores: 12 North Macedonia, 10 Italy, 8 Malta
4 pts Russia
0 pts Azerbaijan

2019:
Top scores: 12 Poland, 10 Ireland, 8 Australia
3 pts Russia

This point is invalid. I mean, Kazakhstan has clearly shown that it can vote in a very fair way. Besides, if it decides to give 12 pts to Russia in ESC, it's their right to do so. It's not like Germany didn't give Switzerland 10 pts this year....

Wait, youre honestly comparing Kazakhstans Juryvote at JESC with their Televote at ESC? Do you honestly think there is a Chance that Russia will not get only 10s and 12s every single Year regarless of the Song? Btw. Germanys Televotes to Switzerland in the last 16 Years since the Introduction of the Powervoting was:

2004: 0 (SF)
2005: 4
2006: 0
2007: 8 (SF)
2008: /
2009: 0 (SF)
2010: /
2011: 0
2012: /
2013: Probably 7-8 (SF)
2014: 4
2015: 0 (SF)
2016: 0 (SF)
2017: 0 (SF, Switzerlad would have qualified with 3 Points)
2018: /
2019. 10

So I dont get why you claim our 10 Points to Luca was Neighbourvoting.

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 22:31
I suspect that the votes would be different when it comes to the big Contest. Kids vote differently than adults and the big contest has more prestige - hence there will be more pressure on the juries. It's not as if the public in the JESC is comparable to the one of the actual contest.

That's just an assumption. It might be likely. It might happen but it's not our right to neglect an independent country which has parts in Europe and takes part in JESC its right to compete in Eurovision (I know other factors might play a role but that's the first "point" I get from Eurovision fans when they say that they don't want Kazakhstan in Eurovision).


Wait, youre honestly comparing Kazakhstans Juryvote at JESC with their Televote at ESC? Do you honestly think there is a Chance that Russia will not get only 10s and 12s every single Year regarless of the Song? Btw. Germanys Televotes to Switzerland in the last 16 Years since the Introduction of the Powervoting was:

2004: 0 (SF)
2005: 4
2006: 0
2007: 8 (SF)
2008: /
2009: 0 (SF)
2010: /
2011: 0
2012: /
2013: Probably 7-8 (SF)
2014: 4
2015: 0 (SF)
2016: 0 (SF)
2017: 0 (SF, Switzerlad would have qualified with 3 Points)
2018: /
2019. 10

So I dont get why you claim our 10 Points to Luca was Neighbourvoting.

I knew Switzerland was a bad example when I posted it but anyway... Personally, I think that the Swiss entries in last year were utterly trashy and tragic and when Switzerland suddenly sends a good track, it immediately gets 10 pts.

I can still remember Germany's points back in 2014 very well: 12 pts The Netherlands, 10 pts Poland, 8 pts Denmark, 7 pts Austria.
Personally, I don't think Germans are very patriotic and they don't tend to vote for their neighbours in general but one can't deny that IF it happens, no one seems to complain whilst everyone is losing their shit when an Eastern European country gives 12 pts to an Eastern European country (because, you know, they are all the same *irony off*). At least, that what I can hear from casual viewers all the time after each and every edition.

Besides, we shouldn't forget that Russia usually sends very famous artists (Serebro, Dima, Sergey, Polina) = getting a lot of points from countries in which they are popular and famous is logical... whilst Germany or Switzerland tend to submit no names... but if they decide to send something huge, they also get a small advantage in our countries, e.g. No Angels getting points from Bulgaria and Switzerland, Luca Hänni getting 10 etc. That's what I was trying to say.

Realest
24th November 2019, 22:38
I knew Switzerland was a bad example when I posted it but anyway... Personally, I think that the Swiss entries in last year were utterly trashy and tragic and when Switzerland suddenly sends a good track, it immediately gets 10 pts.

I can still remember Germany's points back in 2014 very well: 12 pts The Netherlands, 10 pts Poland, 8 pts Denmark, 7 pts Austria.
Personally, I don't think Germans are very patriotic and they don't tend to vote for their neighbours in general but one can't deny that IF it happens, no one seems to complain whilst everyone is losing their shit when an Eastern European country gives 12 pts to an Eastern European country (because, you know, they are all the same *irony off*). At least, that what I can hear from casual viewers all the time after each and every edition.

Luca was 5th in the Televoting (4th in Averages), and we Germans ranked him 2nd, so you criticize us germans to give high Points to a Topfavourite who got Points from 38/40 Countries? Not to forget, that he won DSDS.

Here as well, we did not vote for them because they were our Neighbours, but because all of them ended up in the Top5 in the Televoting. German TV Top3 were AT/NL/PL. DK was only 10th which is fair for a Country which comes 13th in the Overall Televoting. So Yes, when Germany sometimes gives high Points to their Neighbours its fair, but when Russia always gets 8s-12s from their Neighbours regardless of the Song, even when they are no huge Topfavourites, it is unfair and the Complains are justified.

Gera11
24th November 2019, 22:41
Bring in a (western) country that blocvotes for Sweden, nobody bats an eye.
Bring in an (eastern) country that blocvotes for Russia, everybody loses their mind.

:rolleyes:

Realest
24th November 2019, 22:42
^Thats a very naive Points of View.

Preuss
24th November 2019, 22:46
I've only noticed over the years than when an entry does well, the big televoting points usually come from neighbour contries like for example Switzerland this year and Estonia last year, just take a look at the results, and this happens pretty much ever year with various entries - western and eastern countries although I think the difference is that it doesn't happen as frequently in the west than in the east (without looking this up statistically over the years)

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 22:50
I don't level criticism. He got ranked slightly higher than his average score and I don't blame us. Like you said, he won "Deutschland sucht den Superstar". He's known in Germany, he had a great performance and a catchy track.
We need to understand that it's totally ok for Belarus or Azerbaijan or Ukraine to vote for a well-established, popular act for Russia with a great staging as well.
We have seen that Russia can fail as well if the entry sucks (2018)..I'm just tired of the "Kazakhstan shouldn't participate because it will give 24 pts to Russia" argument.

I don't think that all complains are justified because - even though most of their songs suck (in my honest opinion) - they usually send well-established acts. It's not the fault of Eastern European countries that we mostly send no names with mediocre entries to Eurovision.

Btw, the only televoting points Germany got back in 2017 and 2018: 8 pts Switzerland, 2 pts Austria (2016), 3 pts Switzerland (2017) whilst we ended up being last in the overall televoting. Thus, we can assume that we only got points thanks to neighbouring voting or in Jamie-Lee's case, because she was "kinda known" thanks to the Voice of Germany.
We (Central Europeans) do the same... it just has a minor impact because we are a) less countries overall b) more diverse (demographically speaking) but the effect is still there.... Same applies to the UK, btw, it doesn't matter how shitty the entry is, they still get pity-televoting points from former colonies such as Ireland, Malta or Australia.

You say that it's okay for Germany to give high points to its neighbours because the songs are good and perform well in the overall televoting.
Russia did end up being Top 10 in the televoting in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. Thus, isn't it justified that they get high scores from countries X and Y as well?

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 23:01
Bring in a (western) country that blocvotes for Sweden, nobody bats an eye.
Bring in an (eastern) country that blocvotes for Russia, everybody loses their mind.

:rolleyes:


^Thats a very naive Points of View.


It is indeed a very naive point of view but unfortunately, it does exist.

A friend of mine just posted on FB that he's happy to see Poland win JESC because he didn't want to see Kazakhstan win so that it might join the real Eurovision soon. Some fans do support this view.

He even goes further and said that he would like to see Liechtenstein compete because it's at least "Central European".. or that he wants to see Luxembourg and Andorra back.

That's totally fine and I support the idea of having these countries on Eurovision... but if the EBU treats Iceland the same way like Armenia... we shouldn't prevent Kazakhstan from taking part because they are "not Central European" and might be giving pts to its neighbours.

Realest
24th November 2019, 23:09
I don't level criticism. He got ranked slightly higher than his average score and I don't blame us. Like you said, he won "Deutschland sucht den Superstar". He's known in Germany, he had a great performance and a catchy track.
We need to understand that it's totally ok for Belarus or Azerbaijan or Ukraine to vote for a well-established, popular act for Russia with a great staging as well.
We have seen that Russia can fail as well if the entry sucks (2018)..I'm just tired of the "Kazakhstan shouldn't participate because it will give 24 pts to Russia" argument.

I don't think that all complains are justified because - even though most of their songs suck (in my honest opinion) - they usually send well-established acts. It's not the fault of Eastern European countries that we mostly send no names with mediocre entries to Eurovision.

Btw, the only televoting points Germany got back in 2017 and 2018: 8 pts Switzerland, 2 pts Austria (2016), 3 pts Austria (2017) whilst we ended up being last in the overall televoting. Thus, we can assume that we only got points thanks to neighbouring voting or in Jamie-Lee's case, because she was "kinda known" thanks to the Voice of Germany.
We (Central Europeans) do the same... it just has a minor impact because we are a) less countries overall b) more diverse (demographically speaking) but the effect is still there.... Same applies to the UK, btw, it doesn't matter how shitty the entry is, they still get pity-televoting points from former colonies such as Ireland, Malta or Australia.

You say that it's okay for Germany to give high points to its neighbours because the songs are good and perform well in the overall televoting.
Russia did end up being Top 10 in the televoting in 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2019. Thus, isn't it justified that they get high scores from countries X and Y as well?

Yes, its ok to sometimes vote for a Neighbour when they send a popular act, but when Armenia
for Example gives 13 Years in a Row only 10s and 12 to Russia, then theres something corrupt.
Or are the 2009, 2011 and 2014 Acts from Russia also huge Stars which justifies them to give them
their 12 Points? And Btw. even 2018 Russia came 11th with a Song with which Switzerland or Austria
would get around 0 Points. Btw. if Kazakhstan participated, Russia would most likely be in the Top 10.
Also they were a bit unlucky that the wrong Countries were in the same Semi.

I agree that Russia sends better Songs then we in general, but that doesnt justify these automatic Points.

These Points from 2016 and 2017 to Germany where totally fair and not automatic. Noone votes for us because we're Germany.
We got often enough shown, that were able to get 0 Points. How many 0s did Russia get in the last 16 Years from
their Neighbours. I can tell you, its 0 Times.

Its almost impossible to miss the Top10, when you start with 100-120 automatic Televotes in Advance, so thats
hardly an Argument. Especially 2014 it was ridiculous where Russia was 6th despite 16 0s out of 34 Countries.
You know exactly when a central European Country gets 0 Points from half of the Countries, it means a Place outside the Top15
usually.

ESC94
24th November 2019, 23:13
Very interesting discussion between you guys!! I just get some more popcorn from the kitchen!! xpopcorn

Mainshow
24th November 2019, 23:31
Yes, its ok to sometimes vote for a Neighbour when they send a popular act, but when Armenia
for Example gives 13 Years in a Row only 10s and 12 to Russia, then theres something corrupt.
Or are the 2009, 2011 and 2014 Acts from Russia also huge Stars which justifies them to give them
their 12 Points? And Btw. even 2018 Russia came 11th with a Song with which Switzerland or Austria
would get around 0 Points. Btw. if Kazakhstan participated, Russia would most likely be in the Top 10.
Also they were a bit unlucky that the wrong Countries were in the same Semi.

I agree that Russia sends better Songs then we in general, but that doesnt justify these automatic Points.

These Points from 2016 and 2017 to Germany where totally fair and not automatic. Noone votes for us because we're Germany.
We got often enough shown, that were able to get 0 Points. How many 0s did Russia get in the last 16 Years from
their Neighbours. I can tell you, its 0 Times.

Its almost impossible to miss the Top10, when you start with 100-120 automatic Televotes in Advance, so thats
hardly an Argument. Especially 2014 it was ridiculous where Russia was 6th despite 16 0s out of 34 Countries.
You know exactly when a central European Country gets 0 Points from half of the Countries, it means a Place outside the Top15
usually.

I actually agree with you on this post. I don't say that all points are justified but most of them are understandable.
Germany's points back in 2016 and 2017 were caused by being Germany and Jamie-Lee being popular on German TV, for sure (that's where I completely disagree with you). Same applies for that tragic performance from the No Angels. We profited from German fans in Switzerland as well as Bulgarians being fully patriotic and voting for a Bulgarian woman who happens to be part of the show whilst being popular in the country as well.

Like I said, it's the same effect but the former Soviet--> Russia one is way bigger and more effective
But we also have it in a "minor" version in German-speaking countries as well as its neighbours and ::ie, ::mt, ::au --> ::uk

It is clearly the case that Russia profits from former Soviet countries' votes but it's due to many factors which can't be simply described as unfair and thus, it's also not justified to prevent Kazakhstan to finally debut based on only this "argument".
That's all I wanted to say.

HayashiM
25th November 2019, 00:15
I actually agree with you on this post. I don't say that all points are justified but most of them are understandable.
Germany's points back in 2016 and 2017 were caused by being Germany and Jamie-Lee being popular on German TV, for sure (that's where I completely disagree with you). Same applies for that tragic performance from the No Angels. We profited from German fans in Switzerland as well as Bulgarians being fully patriotic and voting for a Bulgarian woman who happens to be part of the show whilst being popular in the country as well.

Like I said, it's the same effect but the former Soviet--> Russia one is way bigger and more effective
But we also have it in a "minor" version in German-speaking countries as well as its neighbours and ::ie, ::mt, ::au --> ::uk

It is clearly the case that Russia profits from former Soviet countries' votes but it's due to many factors which can't be simply described as unfair and thus, it's also not justified to prevent Kazakhstan to finally debut based on only this "argument".
That's all I wanted to say.

I agree with Realest that the issue with ::ru is that this happens almost every year (as it does with ::gr and ::cy where it happens EVERY year btw). However I agree with you that this is a ridiculous reason to exclude ::kz . I am not 100% sure to which extent I consider ::kz European, but it is definitely more European than ::au is. So come on and let ::kz debut if it so wishes. It's not like we're gonna have ESC semis with 20 participants each in the current situation anyway.

Sammy
25th November 2019, 00:16
Very interesting discussion between you guys!! I just get some more popcorn from the kitchen!! xpopcorn

If you miss something of the discussion - don't worry. It's coming back with the same arguments over and over again - with the regularity of the sun rising in the morning. :mrgreen:

I was about to write: "wait for the how european is Kazakhstan part, but it's already there. Normally it's A-Lister who takes aver this part. :lol:

Sammy
25th November 2019, 00:27
That's just an assumption. It might be likely. It might happen but it's not our right to neglect an independent country which has parts in Europe and takes part in JESC its right to compete in Eurovision (I know other factors might play a role but that's the first "point" I get from Eurovision fans when they say that they don't want Kazakhstan in Eurovision).

that's why I said: I suspect.

"we" are not the ones who decide on this, so "we" are not neglecting anybody.

there is no such thing as "a right to participate in the ESC". On the bases of what international law or convention would you deduce such a right?
It's the decision of a union of TV-channels to invite or not to invite non-members to the contest. It's like you would claim the right to be invited to a birthday party of a club you're not a member of just because you live in the neighborhood or just because there are other non-members who get invited.

Now, before you get mad at me - I wisely do not declare myself in the question of wether or not Kazakhstan should be a part of it, I just point out an inconsistency in the argument.

But we can leave it here, if you are ok with it.

Mainshow
25th November 2019, 00:41
Actually there's nothing really to disagree with you about what you wrote since it's kinda logical.

I just want to clarify a few things: I used "we" as we = Eurovision family, fans.
right = we are not morally, legally in the position (we as Eurovision) to ask a country X to not compete because of ("they are Eastern European/Asian", "they will be voting for Russia").

Of course, it's correct that the EBU is the one to decide on this issue, not us fans, but I also think that it's somehow unfair that Australia gets invited, other non European countries are allowed to take part and that the EBU area got expanded because the EBU wanted to include the Caucasus... Thus, why is it allowed to do all these exceptions in cases A, B, C.. but not when it comes to Kazakhstan? - It just got very nasty (in my opinion) when Kazakhstan were allowed to take part in Junior Eurovision but the EBU still prevents them from taking part... it's simply either stupid bureaucracy or pure racism, in my opinion.
Before letting Australia compete and Kazakhstan invited to JESC, the "it's not part of the EBU area" argument was understandable but now it really makes me feel uncomfortable.
Due to Australia being demographically "basically European" and so passionate about Eurovision, I can totally live with them as an exception but not inviting Kazakhstan despite being partly European (geographically and demographically), being part of Junior Eurovision and being passionate about Eurovision (they have sent delegations to observe the contest for years now) seems so bitter to me.

Gabe
25th November 2019, 01:38
My contribution to this is simple.

LET. THEM. IN.

DenizESC
25th November 2019, 02:34
If being majorly white and having culture and language close to Anglo-Saxons qualifies Australia of being European or inside of Euro-zone despite being an established country in Oceania (not Europe) since 1901 and being inside of Europe doesn't qualify Kazakhstan of being European lol than sis bye.

Either racism, discrimination or at least high prejudice against Eastern Europeans and Eurasians is confirmed basically with this. And this just doesn't help the indifference, lack of interest I'm feeling lately, that had already been building up for me for this contest named Eurovision. Which once was so important to me and basically defined the May's of my childhood and teen life. It just doesn't look cute EBU. Eurovision is so boring lately, just let them in already or gtfo and be transparent with ur racism so we can move on.

Alaska49
25th November 2019, 03:47
i mean they almost let them WIN jesc today lmao just let them fucking in!!!! what a fucking farce

anaraqueen
25th November 2019, 14:16
the "not having similar culture" argument is so racist. and i mean shouldn't the contest embrace the differences!!!!! or does that apply only if you are western white



If being majorly white and having culture and language close to Anglo-Saxons qualifies Australia of being European or inside of Euro-zone despite being an established country in Oceania (not Europe) since 1901 and being inside of Europe doesn't qualify Kazakhstan of being European lol than sis bye.

Either racism, discrimination or at least high prejudice against Eastern Europeans and Eurasians is confirmed basically with this. And this just doesn't help the indifference, lack of interest I'm feeling lately, that had already been building up for me for this contest named Eurovision. Which once was so important to me and basically defined the May's of my childhood and teen life. It just doesn't look cute EBU. Eurovision is so boring lately, just let them in already or gtfo and be transparent with ur racism so we can move on.

i love you and you know this!!!!!!!!