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View Full Version : Which country's song should not win ESC 2018?



Bibha
17th March 2018, 15:35
Out of the 43 countries participating in ESC there are 18 countries with a realistic shot of winning this year based on their previous winning history/song quality!
However we would all like the winner to be one we don't dislike! Which of these 18 songs winning will make you sad?
Please defend your choices in the comments.

Denmark, Austria and Germany have been excluded despite being recent winners and being in Top 20 of the odds due to their recent poor showings.

https://youtu.be/J4XZxbrvepw
https://youtu.be/kWomOdDGwMM
https://youtu.be/6DGf9TMehi0
https://youtu.be/Uvy_R3fTHQ4
https://youtu.be/9zZPB3y70oU
https://youtu.be/76KOUIfDry8
https://youtu.be/y4xlvh6qW6M
https://youtu.be/dHb-gWC-WTc
https://youtu.be/z6hvV9-Gi_w
https://youtu.be/CziHrYYSyPc
https://youtu.be/zguJGdoPPnw
https://youtu.be/Mvxni-WcD9A
https://youtu.be/kaVp4El9p3s
https://youtu.be/bgBwbr_fUxA
https://youtu.be/nO4mDiJRH6Q
https://youtu.be/U2UmYBkszOA
https://youtu.be/kLL9IlQ_7OA
https://youtu.be/E1yoAtjhkzQ

aef
17th March 2018, 15:36
First of all it would be really interesting to see which 17 acts you define as realistic contenders... xshrug

FreeFair
17th March 2018, 15:43
Norway!

Bibha
17th March 2018, 15:57
I decided based on the odds and the most recent winning countries with decent results in the past few years!

Citelis
17th March 2018, 16:33
Please do not allow ::no to win!
With the rest im ok!

LastDreamer
17th March 2018, 17:14
Israel, Australia, Sweden

carl1
17th March 2018, 17:15
I will be angry and confused if Israel wins

Bibha
17th March 2018, 17:27
I can appreciate that the Israeli entry is well crafted & the performer has talent, however it really isn't to my tastes. I'm worried that such theatrical, obnoxious candyfloss pop winning would damage the reputation of the contest among casual viewers.

I actually think it's the opposite.
Songs with the potential to do well globally would make the worth of ESC increase amongst casual viewers.

I firmly believe that Portugal's win was a Setback. It makes ESC a one night event, a one live performance thing.
Had Belgium won last year it would have made the casual viewers think.... Oh ESC is a source of music i can actually download and replay. I should follow it more often.

MaryAnny
17th March 2018, 20:30
I actually think it's the opposite.
Songs with the potential to do well globally would make the worth of ESC increase amongst casual viewers.

I firmly believe that Portugal's win was a Setback. It makes ESC a one night event, a one live performance thing.
Had Belgium won last year it would have made the casual viewers think.... Oh ESC is a source of music i can actually download and replay. I should follow it more often.

This I agree with you:
I firmly believe that Portugal's win was a Setback. It makes ESC a one night event, a one live performance thing.
Had Belgium won last year it would have made the casual viewers think.... Oh ESC is a source of music i can actually download and replay. I should follow it more often.

But not about Israel. I think it's a clownish song that will damage the image of the Eurovision Song Contest.

QwaarJet
17th March 2018, 20:43
Quite a few, but Israel is the main one. Would damage the reputation the contest has built up over the last few years of increased song quality. This falls into all the trapping of what drunken Brits think Eurovision is about. All the stereotypes.

Realest
17th March 2018, 20:49
Israel shouldnt win, but I trust the Professional Juries.

Jukica
17th March 2018, 21:46
Bibha I deleted the thread posted by accident :D

You can contact any of the Super Mods / Admins to help you if it is necessary :D you have a list here - http://escunited.com/forum/threads/16808-escYOUnited-com-Staff-Team-amp-FAQ

On the other hand, some of those countries had stronger entries which didn't win :/ so I voted for ::az::no::ru::es::se

Iker
18th March 2018, 00:11
Please everything but Norway.

But I also have a strong dislike for cookie-cutter generic Australia & Azerbaijan but they have 0% chance at victory. These two + Moldova are by far my least favourite entries this year of all countries.

I don't get the hate for Israel, it's amusing. I did not expect that some people will act so seriously, high & mighty in this thread and treat it like some kind of ''mockery'' for Eurovision. Lol, this is Eurovision that you watch. I actually welcome such entry, it's a nice change after two previous winners that were the exact opposite (which I also loved mind you!). Netta is not a troll, and it's not a joke entry either. I guess certain people here are too stuck up or fossilized, you don't have to love it but how they came across in those posts definitely scream ''stuck up'' to me.

BernadetteCydonia
18th March 2018, 00:31
Well the winner of the year does generally influence the possible direction the NF acts might go the next year in countries around Europe. This year people complained about all of them slow ballads with lots of 'feeling' and that lack 'fireworks'. With Israel winning there'd be an increasing risk of all of the fireworks from all of the countries one way or another (the fact that the Lithuanian NF juries are outright down to kind of letting one genuine joke entry through ā la Twosome...) that will work well for the Eurofans that strive to have something to laugh at every year just because of how ridiculously silly and enjoyable this is. Also I wouldn't want Israel to win because that would be one point to the SJWs that had no problem bashing the idea of three Ukrainian MEN hosting Eurovision last year.

Also I don't want practically most of the sure winner contenders to win, ::ee and ::no for example. ::ee because it's just a product with not much of a 'substance' going on (and that it was her strict husband that stitched up the victory for her, what happens if he doesn't allow Elina to reprise her winning song one year later in Eurovision?), ::no because if a meta song couldn't get ::lt 2006 the desired victory the title stated it will get then so shouldn't this one.

Also surprised there's ::ua and ::it amongst the tho-so 'victory contenders'. Tumblr would explode from any of their's victory (and I'm not talking about the SJWs, I'm talking about the Ukraine-Belarus-Czech Republic-Italy(-Israel) support brigade). But oh come on, it's so not happening. Also, what are ::es and ::fr are doing here? Sure them Spaniards are trying to make "Tú cancion" happen as the best thing ever but really now... Also lmao at Russia and Azerbaijan having any chances of victory. also based on random comments here and there Hungary is missing in the list but ah well :V

Chorizo
18th March 2018, 03:24
Luckily some of the garbage on this list doesn't have any chance of winning.

My choices:
::au It's too generic and wouldn't be a worthy winner.
::az It's too generic and wouldn't be a worthy winner.
::il It's a piece of SJW trash featuring chicken clucking. That says it all. The song is already dropping in my list, now that the novelty has worn off. I doubt that this could win because the purpose of the juries is to prevent joke entries from winning. It's fun to have a song like this in Eurovision but Israel winning would be a disaster. Eurovision would be back in 2008.
::no It's a silly song not worthy of winning.
::pt The song is not bad but Eurovision needs a winner that isn't a slow Portuguese ballad this year.
::ru Total garbage that won't win anyway and that I only mention because it's on the list.
::es Kitsch not worthy of winning.
::se The song is okay and even in my top 10 but not the best. Also a third Swedish win in one decade is too much. We need more diversity.
::nl It's too American for Eurovision.

esc87fan
18th March 2018, 03:46
::cz - Even though cleaned up, I think it will be a bit too vulgar for the juries
::ee - Not sure the casual televoter will understand it, opera is one of the riskiest genres to pull off
::il - Don't understand the hype, again not sure if the casual viewer will get it (like Gabbani last year), juries will likely sink it big time
::no - Bad song, only got through to the contest because of who Rybak is. Likely will fall under the Return Winner's Curse
::se - Another factory-churned Swedish pop song, another win in a short period of time is way too much. Not sure if juries will like it

Bibha
18th March 2018, 06:20
Bibha I deleted the thread posted by accident :D

You can contact any of the Super Mods / Admins to help you if it is necessary :D you have a list here - http://escunited.com/forum/threads/16808-escYOUnited-com-Staff-Team-amp-FAQ

On the other hand, some of those countries had stronger entries which didn't win :/ so I voted for ::az::no::ru::es::se

Thanks for the help.

I thought That's how you write a song was the weakest of the ten entries competing in MGP in this year! Norway always chooses thoughtfully. I didn't think they would make the mistake of choosing singer's status over song quality but they did.

Bibha
18th March 2018, 06:27
Well the winner of the year does generally influence the possible direction the NF acts might go the next year in countries around Europe. This year people complained about all of them slow ballads with lots of 'feeling' and that lack 'fireworks'. With Israel winning there'd be an increasing risk of all of the fireworks from all of the countries one way or another (the fact that the Lithuanian NF juries are outright down to kind of letting one genuine joke entry through ā la Twosome...) that will work well for the Eurofans that strive to have something to laugh at every year just because of how ridiculously silly and enjoyable this is. Also I wouldn't want Israel to win because that would be one point to the SJWs that had no problem bashing the idea of three Ukrainian MEN hosting Eurovision last year.

Also I don't want practically most of the sure winner contenders to win, ::ee and ::no for example. ::ee because it's just a product with not much of a 'substance' going on (and that it was her strict husband that stitched up the victory for her, what happens if he doesn't allow Elina to reprise her winning song one year later in Eurovision?), ::no because if a meta song couldn't get ::lt 2006 the desired victory the title stated it will get then so shouldn't this one.

Also surprised there's ::ua and ::it amongst the tho-so 'victory contenders'. Tumblr would explode from any of their's victory (and I'm not talking about the SJWs, I'm talking about the Ukraine-Belarus-Czech Republic-Italy(-Israel) support brigade). But oh come on, it's so not happening. Also, what are ::es and ::fr are doing here? Sure them Spaniards are trying to make "Tú cancion" happen as the best thing ever but really now... Also lmao at Russia and Azerbaijan having any chances of victory. also based on random comments here and there Hungary is missing in the list but ah well :V

Azerbaijan and Russia are here more because of their records and fan superstition rather than song quality.

People are conjecturing that country returning after 1 year gap have been winning ESC.
People also conjectured that close contests like 2011 allow Azerbaijan to come to the fore.

Italy, Spain and France are all hits or misses. They will finish Top 10 or bottom 5 atleast for televote.

Jukica
18th March 2018, 09:39
Thanks for the help.

I thought That's how you write a song was the weakest of the ten entries competing in MGP in this year! Norway always chooses thoughtfully. I didn't think they would make the mistake of choosing singer's status over song quality but they did.

Fairytale was my big favourite in 2009, but That's How You Write a Song is at least 30-40% weaker than Fairytale for me :/

BernadetteCydonia
18th March 2018, 10:29
Italy, [...] will finish Top 10 or bottom 5 atleast for televote.

Not if Tumblrites mass vote for Italy this year to compensate for the last year... I mean, they do really love Italy this year, not in the levels of Francesco, sure, but the Eurovision 2018 tag on Tumblr has every other corner of itself decorated with posts and gushing about Metamoro and their song. So my guess is on Top 10.

FreeFair
18th March 2018, 16:30
I actually think it's the opposite.
I firmly believe that Portugal's win was a Setback. It makes ESC a one night event, a one live performance thing.
Had Belgium won last year it would have made the casual viewers think.... Oh ESC is a source of music i can actually download and replay. I should follow it more often.

I agree with this, Portugal's song was too far in the other direction. I would have liked Belgium or Bulgaria to win, so that people could see that the contest was about modern, 'tasteful' pop music with beauty & intelligence.
Actually, after Portugal's win I would not like to see Estonia win because that's another Performance based novelty, except in Opera not Jazz. It wouldn't be commercially credible.
That's why my favourite three this year are Portugal (O Jardim is better than APD), Czech Republic (still kinda silly but very commerical, cool & modern), and Bulgaria (has all of the things that I do want to see in ESC)

Bibha
19th March 2018, 16:54
Well the Israeli media is using Netta song for animal rights promotion! I'm not your food, you stupid dude

Iker
19th March 2018, 18:26
I agree with this, Portugal's song was too far in the other direction. I would have liked Belgium or Bulgaria to win, so that people could see that the contest was about modern, 'tasteful' pop music with beauty & intelligence.
Actually, after Portugal's win I would not like to see Estonia win because that's another Performance based novelty, except in Opera not Jazz. It wouldn't be commercially credible.
That's why my favourite three this year are Portugal (O Jardim is better than APD), Czech Republic (still kinda sily but very commerical, cool & modern), and Bulgaria (all of the things that I do want to see in ESC)

For me your arguments does not have much value, maybe because I am not really into contemporary "pop" or mainstream music. Despite following ESC in which it is common I rarely find it important, it's also not type of music that I am mostly occupied with. Even for "lighter entertainment" I have other stuff but there are some uptempo pop songs that I enjoy this year actually. But I actually would not mind such winner this year to make it different than 2 previous years, Czech Republic winning would be acceptable, not off-putting at all and I'd be very happy for Czechs and Mikolaj Josef. Btw I am not sure whether Sennek is pop ...

Another argument of yours is also quite easy to debunk ... that music that is created for ESC has some big-hit radio potential regardless of it conforming to it or not. The only songs from ESC that I remember stumbling upon repeatedly on random radio stations was "Euphoria" & "Satellite" + "Heroes" & "Running Scared" but only for a month after Eurovision. Salvador's winning was not any "setback" for me.

I actually welcome all sorts of music at ESC, and I'd like countries to bring even more music in various styles and national languages / styles instead of Swedish assembly line pop / dance-pop that I am utterly bored with that emerges so often in National Finals and during actual Eurovision.

FreeFair
19th March 2018, 18:47
I actually welcome all sorts of music at ESC, and I'd like countries to bring even more music in various styles and national languages / styles instead of Swedish assembly line pop / dance-pop that I am utterly bored with that emerges so often in National Finals and during actual Eurovision.

If you mean more stuff like Serbia, then I totally agree. I just wouldn't want there to be anything obnoxious or too theatrical in there. It harms the reputation of the contest.

FoxOfShadows
19th March 2018, 19:11
I was never a fan of 'Amar Pelois Dois' and I still think Salvador is an insufferable and rude person. However, I do appreciate what ::pt winning did to the contest. It showed that we didn't want a cheap song with a big, tacky performance sung in poor English. It was definitely a turning point in the reception of the contest in the UK at least. Several people I know really liked Salvador's song and were interested in the contest for once. And it has resulted in us getting several more non-english songs this year which is always good. So I thank Salvador for that.

Israel winning this year would reverse all the good that Portugal did last year. The lyrics are poor, the clucking is gimmicky and undoubtedly the performance will be unnecessarily crazy and tacky. A lot of people will compare it to 'Occidentalis Karma' but I think there is a very distinct difference. OK was clever, the lyrics were filled interested concepts and messages and, unlike Netta's clukcing, the monkey actually made sense and fit the lyrics. It wasn't as gimmicky as people made it out to be. I understand that 'Toy' has an important message but the lyrics are poor so the message is either lost or ridiculed. I'm hoping the hype behind Israel is limited mostly to the fanbase because, as a British fan of the contest, I don't want Eurovision winners to go back to being cheap and tacky pop.

Iker
19th March 2018, 21:30
I was never a fan of 'Amar Pelois Dois' and I still think Salvador is an insufferable and rude person. However, I do appreciate what ::pt winning did to the contest. It showed that we didn't want a cheap song with a big, tacky performance sung in poor English. It was definitely a turning point in the reception of the contest in the UK at least. Several people I know really liked Salvador's song and were interested in the contest for once. And it has resulted in us getting several more non-english songs this year which is always good. So I thank Salvador for that.

Israel winning this year would reverse all the good that Portugal did last year. The lyrics are poor, the clucking is gimmicky and undoubtedly the performance will be unnecessarily crazy and tacky. A lot of people will compare it to 'Occidentalis Karma' but I think there is a very distinct difference. OK was clever, the lyrics were filled interested concepts and messages and, unlike Netta's clukcing, the monkey actually made sense and fit the lyrics. It wasn't as gimmicky as people made it out to be. I understand that 'Toy' has an important message but the lyrics are poor so the message is either lost or ridiculed. I'm hoping the hype behind Israel is limited mostly to the fanbase because, as a British fan of the contest, I don't want Eurovision winners to go back to being cheap and tacky pop.

I think I might be an interesting case as I love both Salvador & Netta (and I'd like to see her winning this year!) I don't think it would reverse anything. I don't think she's cheap and tacky pop ... for that I'd recommend Azerbaijan this year.

It does not mean that something is tacky because that something is non-serious.

midnightsun
20th March 2018, 01:19
Just one hope: don’t let the winner be Israel !

Other than that, I wouldn‘t like to see soulless generic Dance songs like Finland, Australia or Azerbaijan winning.

anaraqueen
20th March 2018, 02:28
out of these songs, the only one in my bottom five is Spain. I also don't want Russia and The Netherlands to win though. I'm fine with the rest by now














slovenia the world is yours

Bibha
22nd March 2018, 14:44
Only _4 countries yet to reach double digit dislikes

FreeFair
22nd March 2018, 18:17
Based on how polarizing other big entries are, I think we could see Bulgaria win because of the largest amount of 10, 8 & 7 points even if other entries get more 12s.

Citelis
22nd March 2018, 20:13
Some of them are nowhere near the win! Spain for example!

Franzilein
22nd March 2018, 21:06
I hope Israel doesn't win. It tries so hard to be funny, but it just isn't... I think the concept of "Fremdschämen" fits really well here :?

A-lister
24th March 2018, 16:53
Out of this bunch, I'd only be ok with the following winning:

Estonia: La Forza(Elina Nechayeva)
France: Mercy(Madame Monsieur)
Greece: Oneiro Mou(Yianna Terzi)
Israel: Toy(Netta Barzilai)
Italy: Non mi avete fatto niente(Ermal & Fabrizio)

The rest are not worthy of winning imo, simply because they are either bland, dated or have no "personality" on their own.

Anyways I don't agree with this list, I don't see most of Europe liking ::nl (why is this so high in the betting?, you'll see that this will rightly flop with televoters in May) nor do I see ::pt, ::ru or ::es as winner material what so ever xshrug

A-lister
24th March 2018, 16:59
I was never a fan of 'Amar Pelois Dois' and I still think Salvador is an insufferable and rude person. However, I do appreciate what ::pt winning did to the contest. It showed that we didn't want a cheap song with a big, tacky performance sung in poor English. It was definitely a turning point in the reception of the contest in the UK at least. Several people I know really liked Salvador's song and were interested in the contest for once. And it has resulted in us getting several more non-english songs this year which is always good. So I thank Salvador for that.

Israel winning this year would reverse all the good that Portugal did last year. The lyrics are poor, the clucking is gimmicky and undoubtedly the performance will be unnecessarily crazy and tacky. A lot of people will compare it to 'Occidentalis Karma' but I think there is a very distinct difference. OK was clever, the lyrics were filled interested concepts and messages and, unlike Netta's clukcing, the monkey actually made sense and fit the lyrics. It wasn't as gimmicky as people made it out to be. I understand that 'Toy' has an important message but the lyrics are poor so the message is either lost or ridiculed. I'm hoping the hype behind Israel is limited mostly to the fanbase because, as a British fan of the contest, I don't want Eurovision winners to go back to being cheap and tacky pop.

Yeah God forbid ESC could ever produce a hit again... let's go back to the 80's-90's when only dreaded dated ballads won and everyone laughed at how dated and out of touch the contest was... xshrug

I don't think Israel has the best song this year, but I do think it would actually do ESC good to have a winner that could stand a chance to become some sort of hit afterwards, it would help its reputation rather than the opposite, it would make ESC look like it has potential of being a force to be reckon with in music rather than this contest with dated stuff. ESC would do good with atleast producing a couple of cross-over hits in a decade (preferably more of course), otherwise the contest looks irrelevant just like it was in the past. I am not saying that ESC should only be about chasing hits, but it's also harming the contest when it is so out of touch it can't even produce one hit being the biggest music show afterall.

FoxOfShadows
24th March 2018, 19:33
Yeah God forbid ESC could ever produce a hit again... let's go back to the 80's-90's when only dreaded dated ballads won and everyone laughed at how dated and out of touch the contest was... xshrug

I don't think Israel has the best song this year, but I do think it would actually do ESC good to have a winner that could stand a chance to become some sort of hit afterwards, it would help its reputation rather than the opposite, it would make ESC look like it has potential of being a force to be reckon with in music rather than this contest with dated stuff. ESC would do good with atleast producing a couple of cross-over hits in a decade (preferably more of course), otherwise the contest looks irrelevant just like it was in the past. I am not saying that ESC should only be about chasing hits, but it's also harming the contest when it is so out of touch it can't even produce one hit being the biggest music show afterall.

Eurovision can have a 'hit' winner without resorting to awful lyrics and cheap chicken gimmicks. I'd class ::se 2012, ::se 2015 and ::at 2014 as hits and also as good winning songs. They're certainly a league above ::il this year. Eurovision's reputation has increased favourably in the last few years as the quality of entries and production has increased. Israel winning would help reverse that image.

anto475
24th March 2018, 20:36
I voted against:
::az Because it's a terrible song and it would be a shame to see it win above so many better songs
::be It's just too slow and soulless, I can't see it winning
::il If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.
::no Because Europe is only so big and I don't think the continent could fit Alexander Rybak's swollen head if he won. Plus it's a shitty shitty song and doesn't even deserve to qualify
::se PLEASE PLEASE can we just not have Sweden win and can Christer Bjorkman go back to hairdressing and stop ruining the contest with his awful polo neck jumpers, generic music, and Melfest PLEASE

A-lister
24th March 2018, 21:01
Eurovision can have a 'hit' winner without resorting to awful lyrics and cheap chicken gimmicks. I'd class ::se 2012, ::se 2015 and ::at 2014 as hits and also as good winning songs. They're certainly a league above ::il this year. Eurovision's reputation has increased favourably in the last few years as the quality of entries and production has increased. Israel winning would help reverse that image.

I find it interesting how conservative Eurovision fans seem to be, what "in the real world" is considered quirky and fun, some here directly label as "gimmicky" (and this comes from a contest which was always meant to be a bit over the top). There are so many global hits that are more "gimmicky" than this one. If increasing "quality" is having winner entries that sound like they could have been taken part in ESC 1950's with absolute no cross-over appeal what so ever, zero chance of having any life outside of the contest, zero chance any radios would pick them up and no viral potential, then I'd prefer a "reverse in quality" as you put it. Don't get me wrong, what I love about Eurovision is the musical diversity, but it's bad for a contest that is supposed to be the largest music and entertainment show in the world to barely be able to produce one hit song in a decade, it makes the contest look irrelevant almost. The last thing Eurovision needs it to turn back to the 1980's and 90's when most entries sounded like they were atleast a decade too late and were dreadfully out of touch of contemporary music.

A-lister
24th March 2018, 21:03
::il If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.


I thought this was about the music? How original with Irish anti-Israel bashing though... and yes it's the only country in a whole region where it's not illegal to be gay and where women have equal rights... that's not "pinkwashing", it's facts... but yeah of course they have no right to exist and those beautiful "Democratic and cradle of human rights"-states surrounding them should have the right to eat up this small piece of land too (because having 99% of middle east, whole Northen African and big parts of Asia isn't enough xshrug)... God forbid that Jews have a small strip of land and defend themselves against daily attacks... Zzzz

Anyways, I doubt the contest would be held in Jerusalem due to various reasons, so it would probably be Tel Aviv.

Ezio
25th March 2018, 01:36
Eurovision would survive Israel winning this year. In fact, it would be a breath of fresh air if Israel won. 3 out of 4 last winners had very meaningful and serious songs. Eurovision moved in a direction where many songs are more meaningful and in fact, Israel makes a lot of sense too, but it is more quirky and fun as well. I would stand 100% behind Israel if they won.

bstream
25th March 2018, 03:05
Occidentali’s Karma and Israel 2018 are certainly two different songs. Israel 2018 is about body positivity and calling out immature behavior of men, Italy 2017 was a critique of western culture and ignorance-fueled pretentiousness. Italy was lost in translation (the gorilla came off as a gimmick and not the illustrative point it was supposed to serve). Israel is in clear English. I’m still trying to fully take in Israel’s entry this year, and I think seeing it live will make or break it.

And I think that applies to so many entries this year. With no clear favorite outside of the virality of Israel, this probably be the first Eurovision in over half a decade where we truly won’t have and idea until after semi 1 and/or 2. The only other year I can remember where this was remotely the case was Conchita after the semi performance in 2014.

The Eurovision audience isn’t against joke entries forever, and I think one can win eventually, but smart staging now plays a much larger role in recent years.

Chorizo
25th March 2018, 03:46
I voted against:
::il If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.

Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning. ;)

Chorizo
25th March 2018, 03:50
Occidentali’s Karma and Israel 2018 are certainly two different songs. Israel 2018 is about body positivity and calling out immature behavior of men, Italy 2017 was a critique of western culture and ignorance-fueled pretentiousness. Italy was lost in translation (the gorilla came off as a gimmick and not the illustrative point it was supposed to serve). Israel is in clear English. I’m still trying to fully take in Israel’s entry this year, and I think seeing it live will make or break it.

And I think that applies to so many entries this year. With no clear favorite outside of the virality of Israel, this probably be the first Eurovision in over half a decade where we truly won’t have and idea until after semi 1 and/or 2. The only other year I can remember where this was remotely the case was Conchita after the semi performance in 2014.

The Eurovision audience isn’t against joke entries forever, and I think one can win eventually, but smart staging now plays a much larger role in recent years.

Clear English and bucka bucka chicken sounds.

A-lister
25th March 2018, 10:51
Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning. ;)

xclap

See this is the problem with this antisemitic hypocrite BS movement, it explicitly singles out and targets Israel while turning the blind out to (and even openly supports) Sharia ruled terrorist states, they also completely ignore communist dictatorships like Venezuela, North Korea and Cuba and other states' violations against human rights and international laws like Russia's and China's for instance, because that would take away the focus from Israel and would quickly show how unproportional and crazy this whole focus is. Antisemitism is so 1940's and most westerners in this movement doesn't seem to grasp that they are just being used as useful idiots by fundamentalists that want to basically see Jews being slaughtered and disappear from the face of the earth. It's sad to see antisemitism alive and kicking in this forum, but I'm not surprised unfortunately.

mauve
25th March 2018, 12:24
xclap

See this is the problem with this antisemitic hypocrite BS movement, it explicitly singles out and targets Israel while turning the blind out to (and even openly supports) Sharia ruled terrorist states, it also completely ignores communist dictatorships like Venezuela, North Korea and China and other states' violations against human rights and international laws like Russia's for instance, because that would take away the focus on Israel and would quickly show how unproportional and crazy this whole focus is. Antisemitism is so 1940's and most westerners in this movement doesn't seem to grasp that they are just being used as useful idiots by fundamentalists that want to basically see Jews being slaughtered and disappear from the face of the earth. It's sad to see antisemitism alive and kicking in this forum, but I'm not surprised unfortunately.

Don't want to get too political, but there is still a difference between antisemitism and antiisraelism. I am no antisemitist, but I really am against the politics that Israel does. Just because they were sacrifice in a really dark age shouldn't be a justification of their garbage politics.

A-lister
25th March 2018, 12:32
Don't want to get too political, but there is still a difference between antisemitism and antiisraelism. I am no antisemitist, but I really am against the politics that Israel does. Just because they were sacrifice in a really dark age shouldn't be a justification of their garbage politics.

There is a correlation between antisemitism and antiisraelism (btw "antiisraelism" as you call it is clearly against a whole country, not just about the politics of it), but I will not go into some stretched out political discussion about it, I was just originally commenting a post that targeted out Israel in here.

When people put all their focus on the only small Jewish land that exist on this earth, while putting the blind eye to far worse examples and even stand side by side with Hamas and Iran, then this is no longer about being against some policies of a country, then this is disguised antisemitism. You can be against the politics of a country, but when you make a comment that you'd support an entry by "any other country" (when you have such violators as Russia in the contest for instance), then this is no longer about the politics about the country, then this is something far more disturbing.

mauve
25th March 2018, 13:30
There is a correlation between antisemitism and antiisraelism (btw "antiisraelism" as you call it is clearly against a whole country, not just about the politics of it), but I will not go into some stretched out political discussion about it, I was just originally commenting a post that targeted out Israel in here.

When people put all their focus on the only small Jewish land that exist on this earth, while putting the blind eye to far worse examples and even stand side by side with Hamas and Iran, then this is no longer about being against some policies of a country, then this is disguised antisemitism. You can be against the politics of a country, but when you make a comment that you'd support an entry by "any other country" (when you have such violators as Russia in the contest for instance), then this is no longer about the politics about the country, then this is something far more disturbing.

I agree with you about what you said. Right now there are so many countries going the wrong way. And actually, ESC shouldn't be about politics, Music should be just music with politics in the background. But unfortunately, often it isn't so. :?

anto475
25th March 2018, 21:55
Sounds like you would be happy with Russia winning. ;)

The only reason I didn't vote against Russia is because I don't think Russia has a chance at winning. Toy is a fantastic song, Flame Is Burning, Second Edition, is not.

A-lister
26th March 2018, 13:42
The only reason I didn't vote against Russia is because I don't think Russia has a chance at winning. Toy is a fantastic song, Flame Is Burning, Second Edition, is not.

How about a reminder of your own words?


::il If any other country sent it I would love to see it win. But I don't want to see a contest in Jerusalem. I don't want the Eurovision to be used by Israel's pinkwashing campaign. I don't want the contest to be part of Israeli propaganda painting it as a "modern, liberal, Western" country. Not a chance.

Now I know only one way to read that sentence, and it's that every other country, including countries that are ranked as "authoritarian" by Economist Intelligence Unit (such as Russia, Belarus and Azerbaijan) and are ranked far lower than Israel in all other aspects (human rights, gender equality, LGBT rights, corruption etc.) would still be ok winners in your opinion? Also, maybe it doesn't interest you, but Israel is even ranked above 21 other ESC countries when it comes to democracy (including Belgium, Czech Rep. and Cyprus amongst others), and together with Estonia, France, Portugal and Italy, it is labeled as "flawed democracy" (only 14 ESC countries are ranked as "Full democracies", which leaves nearly 30 countries as either flawed or worse). When it comes to UN's "Gender inequality index", Israel is ranked above 30 other ESC countries, and let's not even start on LGBT rights where Israel is a diamond in a dark sea in its region, but even here they are ranked above many of the other ESC countries aswell.

So by all means, continue bash, but please look into facts first...

Bibha
26th March 2018, 15:07
This one vote for a winner to not come from the above 18 entices me

anto475
27th March 2018, 00:35
How about a reminder of your own words?



Now I know only one way to read that sentence, and it's that every other country, including countries that are ranked as "authoritarian" by Economist Intelligence Unit (such as Russia, Belarus and Azerbaijan) and are ranked far lower than Israel in all other aspects (human rights, gender equality, LGBT rights, corruption etc.) would still be ok winners in your opinion? Also, maybe it doesn't interest you, but Israel is even ranked above 21 other ESC countries when it comes to democracy (including Belgium, Czech Rep. and Cyprus amongst others), and together with Estonia, France, Portugal and Italy, it is labeled as "flawed democracy" (only 14 ESC countries are ranked as "Full democracies", which leaves nearly 30 countries as either flawed or worse). When it comes to UN's "Gender inequality index", Israel is ranked above 30 other ESC countries, and let's not even start on LGBT rights where Israel is a diamond in a dark sea in its region, but even here they are ranked above many of the other ESC countries aswell.

So by all means, continue bash, but please look into facts first...

Apologies apologies, I didn't take into account every other country on that list and made a rash statement in what I thought was a casual forum, I am so so sorry. Let me rephrase.
If any other country, apart from Belarus or Russia or Azerbaijan sent it I would love to see it win. I never said Israel wasn't democratic so I don't know why you're bringing that in, nor did I say that Israel was a sexist state or a homophobic state. And how bloody dare you accuse me of being antisemitic. I am not in the least antisemitic, and antizionism does not equate with antisemitism. I'm studying Judaism and Jewish culture/history as part of my degree and I have absolutely nothing but respect and reverence for Judaism and Jews worldwide, so please don't slander me like that again.

It is incredibly well known that Israel engages in countless cases of human rights abuses, both in Gaza and the West Bank, and even within its own borders to the members of Beta Israel. Why do you think the Gaza Strip is known as the world's largest outdoor prison? Why do you think Ethiopian Jews are threatening hunger strikes in protest of Israel's actions towards them? On top of this, Israeli pinkwashing is widespread across the board, from simple tourism to pornography and even to the Eurovision (the Israel Calling party). Hosting the Eurovision, now largely seen as a gay event, would give them a platform to paint themselves as a haven for LGBT people in the region and shove aside the negative actions they carry out on a daily basis on their non-white-Jewish population.

On a side note, I'm not going to reply to any of your messages because you've demonstrated in the past that it's nearly impossible to reach a logical and peaceful end of a debate with you. Further, this isn't the proper thread for a political debate.

LalehForWD
27th March 2018, 02:11
It is, of course, honest to admit purely political reasons why some countries are considered disqualified. It is another thing altogether to logically argue for such treatment in a fair way. It is simply impossible without demanding a formal ban from the EBU. Still, I think and we all know, politics do play a considerable role in Eurovision voting.

And no, it is not antisemitism to criticise Israel. It is a cynical abuse of the holocaust to claim Carte blanche and playing the victim role for the violations of international law that Israel is executing. This argument is also almost exclusively expressed by the authoritarian far right/ultra-nationalists.

Personally, I don't think Israel should be banned from Eurovision - therefore I fully support the possibility of an Israel win.

edit:
But then by saying this, and at second thought, I kind of reject the whole idea behind the thread :lol:

A-lister
27th March 2018, 14:09
Apologies apologies, I didn't take into account every other country on that list and made a rash statement in what I thought was a casual forum, I am so so sorry. Let me rephrase.
If any other country, apart from Belarus or Russia or Azerbaijan sent it I would love to see it win. I never said Israel wasn't democratic so I don't know why you're bringing that in, nor did I say that Israel was a sexist state or a homophobic state. And how bloody dare you accuse me of being antisemitic. I am not in the least antisemitic, and antizionism does not equate with antisemitism. I'm studying Judaism and Jewish culture/history as part of my degree and I have absolutely nothing but respect and reverence for Judaism and Jews worldwide, so please don't slander me like that again.

It is incredibly well known that Israel engages in countless cases of human rights abuses, both in Gaza and the West Bank, and even within its own borders to the members of Beta Israel. Why do you think the Gaza Strip is known as the world's largest outdoor prison? Why do you think Ethiopian Jews are threatening hunger strikes in protest of Israel's actions towards them? On top of this, Israeli pinkwashing is widespread across the board, from simple tourism to pornography and even to the Eurovision (the Israel Calling party). Hosting the Eurovision, now largely seen as a gay event, would give them a platform to paint themselves as a haven for LGBT people in the region and shove aside the negative actions they carry out on a daily basis on their non-white-Jewish population.

On a side note, I'm not going to reply to any of your messages because you've demonstrated in the past that it's nearly impossible to reach a logical and peaceful end of a debate with you. Further, this isn't the proper thread for a political debate.

No need for a sarcastic apology really, and if you don't want to reply that's fine, but if you write a comment like you did you could expect that someone would reply to it, now that someone happened to be me but could have very well been another person (for your information we have Jewish and Israeli members on this forum as well).

Now, I'm not sure what your intentions were with your comment, but what said was said and I reacted to the initial comment of yours (not your adjusted version here). I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I came on too harsh and I hope you don't have the wrong intentions (although from your original comment it didn't look too good).

Now many people don't agree with me on issues here, it's fine, but when arguing for something I like to do it based on atleast some facts, I see you ignored statistics I provided to you from various respected sources. Now I'm not sure what you mean with "pinkwashing", but the fact that Israel is a democratic state that is far more progressive than many other ESC countries is something you can't ignore, that's not "pinkwashing", it's reality.

I agree with you that this shouldn't be a political thread (however you started it with your initial comment), but if you are so concerned with human rights etc., maybe before solely targeting Israel and victimizing their enemies surrounding them, you should take a look at the bigger picture, because for someone apparently being concerned with human rights, you seem not concerned at all with the fact that in Gaza it's death penalty for being gay for instance, and that Palestine rather see Israel disappear from the face of the earth than coming to any peace agreement... but yeah that would kill the narrative that Israel is somehow sole responsible for this conflict.

I'm not trying to advocate for and say that all that Israel does is right, because there are many things I disagree with in their policies as well, but I know that the Hamas/Iran narrative is based solely on anti-semitism, and solely targeting out Israel as a "bad guy", unwilling to see other sides, is basically playing to that narrative.

Bibha
31st March 2018, 14:00
Well the question was on song!
If people don't like the country they should petition for the contest to be hosted in another country!
But penalizing and mocking the worth of the entire contest by making it all about the country irrespective of the quality of song they send is not right!!

Bibha
8th April 2018, 07:51
After watching the live performances in Moscow I think there is no way Azerbaijan and Russia can contend for a win. It'll be a miracle if they qualify now.

Bibha
10th April 2018, 16:59
One week left to vote and it'd seem that France has the least divisive song!